BA and Project Columbus II
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For WeLieInTheShadows and everybody else who posts in Nokia speak, who believes Nokia speak is acceptable here or who mistakenly believes that there are no rules regarding how posts are written.
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At the top of the forum there is a FAQ and a request to read it before you post.
At the start of the FAQ there is this:
Posts in this forum MUST:
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Many forum members do not have English as their native language ( 2 of the Mods don't) and we do not require perfect English at all. But grammar and punctuation exist in all languages, so use them.
Text message abbreviations render a posts incomprehensible to any non-native English speaker, and we don't want them here.
You don't pay per letter, this site is not a public service and if the rules don't suit you, don't participate.
Thank you.
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Well. That will weed a few out!
Interesting to compare BA's situation with Lufty where cabin crew productivity is much greater yet they are paid less. That could never happen in BA
Interesting to compare BA's situation with Lufty where cabin crew productivity is much greater yet they are paid less. That could never happen in BA
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Are they paid less?
Do they work more?
Not the information BA cabin crew recieved. Even our management would not rise to comparing us with Lufty, a fair and relevant comparrison we all thought, because the comparrison would not have been favourable to their criteria.
Haven't Lufty cabin crew just voted for strike action?
Do they work more?
Not the information BA cabin crew recieved. Even our management would not rise to comparing us with Lufty, a fair and relevant comparrison we all thought, because the comparrison would not have been favourable to their criteria.
Haven't Lufty cabin crew just voted for strike action?
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No, you're behind the times:
Basically Lufthansa crew are 45% more productive than BA crew and are paid just over half as much.
The truth is out there, you won't get it from BASSA though.
FRANKFURT -(Dow Jones)- German airline Deutsche lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) said Tuesday it has signed a wage agreement with the unions representing its cabin crew, and in so doing, averted possible strike action.
In the agreement, signed with unions UFO and ver.di, wages for around 16,000 cabin crew will be retroactively raised by 4.2% from Jan. 1, lufthansa said. Furthermore, the three entry-level wage levels will be increased by EUR100 and employees at these levels will receive a one-off payment of EUR100, the company said.
The agreement also includes a profit-sharing agreement for 2008 results of up to 3% of the annual base salary, lufthansa said. The parties also agreed to the return of some measures agreed in 2005 and to better working conditions, lufthansa said.
The agreement, which is still awaiting final approval by unions and lufthansa, will be valid until February 28, 2010, the airline said.
Monday a majority of workers represented by UFO had voted in favor of an unlimited strike at lufthansa.
In the agreement, signed with unions UFO and ver.di, wages for around 16,000 cabin crew will be retroactively raised by 4.2% from Jan. 1, lufthansa said. Furthermore, the three entry-level wage levels will be increased by EUR100 and employees at these levels will receive a one-off payment of EUR100, the company said.
The agreement also includes a profit-sharing agreement for 2008 results of up to 3% of the annual base salary, lufthansa said. The parties also agreed to the return of some measures agreed in 2005 and to better working conditions, lufthansa said.
The agreement, which is still awaiting final approval by unions and lufthansa, will be valid until February 28, 2010, the airline said.
Monday a majority of workers represented by UFO had voted in favor of an unlimited strike at lufthansa.
The truth is out there, you won't get it from BASSA though.
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BA require.
1) customer experience design and development manager.
2) customer experience service manager.
3) customer experience consistent delivery manager.
4) customer experience product manager.
1) customer experience design and development manager.
2) customer experience service manager.
3) customer experience consistent delivery manager.
4) customer experience product manager.
"Purser for switching ovens on",
"Purser for checking oven temperature",
"Purser incharge of checking meals with a t-stick",
"Purser incharge of 20 minute checks",
"Purser incharge of kissing passengers goodnight" and so on????
Seems like a similar pointless use of the company budget!
No, you're behind the times:
Quote:
FRANKFURT -(Dow Jones)- German airline Deutsche lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) said Tuesday it has signed a wage agreement with the unions representing its cabin crew, and in so doing, averted possible strike action.
In the agreement, signed with unions UFO and ver.di, wages for around 16,000 cabin crew will be retroactively raised by 4.2% from Jan. 1, lufthansa said. Furthermore, the three entry-level wage levels will be increased by EUR100 and employees at these levels will receive a one-off payment of EUR100, the company said.
The agreement also includes a profit-sharing agreement for 2008 results of up to 3% of the annual base salary, lufthansa said. The parties also agreed to the return of some measures agreed in 2005 and to better working conditions, lufthansa said.
The agreement, which is still awaiting final approval by unions and lufthansa, will be valid until February 28, 2010, the airline said.
Monday a majority of workers represented by UFO had voted in favor of an unlimited strike at lufthansa.
Basically Lufthansa crew are 45% more productive than BA crew and are paid just over half as much.
The truth is out there, you won't get it from BASSA though.
Quote:
FRANKFURT -(Dow Jones)- German airline Deutsche lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) said Tuesday it has signed a wage agreement with the unions representing its cabin crew, and in so doing, averted possible strike action.
In the agreement, signed with unions UFO and ver.di, wages for around 16,000 cabin crew will be retroactively raised by 4.2% from Jan. 1, lufthansa said. Furthermore, the three entry-level wage levels will be increased by EUR100 and employees at these levels will receive a one-off payment of EUR100, the company said.
The agreement also includes a profit-sharing agreement for 2008 results of up to 3% of the annual base salary, lufthansa said. The parties also agreed to the return of some measures agreed in 2005 and to better working conditions, lufthansa said.
The agreement, which is still awaiting final approval by unions and lufthansa, will be valid until February 28, 2010, the airline said.
Monday a majority of workers represented by UFO had voted in favor of an unlimited strike at lufthansa.
Basically Lufthansa crew are 45% more productive than BA crew and are paid just over half as much.
The truth is out there, you won't get it from BASSA though.
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Overstress.
Where does it state that LH crew are 45% more productive than BA crew?
Where does it state that BA crew are paid just over half as much as LH crew?
Where does it state that LH crew are 45% more productive than BA crew?
Where does it state that BA crew are paid just over half as much as LH crew?
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Don't take this the wrong way but I have a question:
Why do you have crew rest on flights to both CAI and TLV when you actually get a fairly long nightstop there, for instance CAI being 33 hours long?
Why do you have crew rest on flights to both CAI and TLV when you actually get a fairly long nightstop there, for instance CAI being 33 hours long?
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I've never operated a CAI flight so I cannot really answer what breaks are taken. I would image there is a maximum of an hour for breaks between service on this flight. I doubt crew will be changing into pjs and going to bed. And that will be a good day, I could imagine some flights were breaks are very short and hardly worthwhile.
On the TLV, however, it is as imagined for the CAI. We operate on a B767 which has three rest seats in the cabin. On the late flight a longer break is taken because the majority of our passengers are asleep. And by long I would say 40mins.
Breaks are at the discretion of the SCCM and the guidelines in our scheduling agreement suggest that a break of 20mins is the minimum for flights between 3 and 6 hours.
To add. This is not the type of flight which leads to arguments about flexibility and agreements. The trouble seems to stem from long range flights which generate box/overtime payments and agreements far beyond legal requirements.
Having worked for a charter company, and having friends who still do so, I understand how lucky I am to have a break. A friend operates, for charter, a TLV service there and back.
On the TLV, however, it is as imagined for the CAI. We operate on a B767 which has three rest seats in the cabin. On the late flight a longer break is taken because the majority of our passengers are asleep. And by long I would say 40mins.
Breaks are at the discretion of the SCCM and the guidelines in our scheduling agreement suggest that a break of 20mins is the minimum for flights between 3 and 6 hours.
To add. This is not the type of flight which leads to arguments about flexibility and agreements. The trouble seems to stem from long range flights which generate box/overtime payments and agreements far beyond legal requirements.
Having worked for a charter company, and having friends who still do so, I understand how lucky I am to have a break. A friend operates, for charter, a TLV service there and back.
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All departments are being asked to save money, the savings are based on how much each dept has left to give. Most cabin crew seem to agree the pilots are at or near market rates and cosequently are being asked to make modest savings, are agreements provide some protection at the planning stage only once on the day saftey and common sense is applied to keep things going as much as possible. Payments are also bsed on planned flight time and TAFB so nothing is gained financially by being late /delaying flights.
Compare the cabin crew who are paid over the market rate by a significant amount at the end of the month (including all payments) and are unable to apply common sense on the day. This is not usually down to individuals but the way they are treated by the union and the company (they have rules to follow blindly covering everything from payments to rest to where and how they can luggage!)
I have said bvefore I think our crew are the best but a new way of working is needed that costs less and allows flexability to the individual crew and the company.
BASSA may have protected massive inflated wages for a small number of people, but they are going to have to face reality that other airlines crew (and LGW) work in everyday.
Compare the cabin crew who are paid over the market rate by a significant amount at the end of the month (including all payments) and are unable to apply common sense on the day. This is not usually down to individuals but the way they are treated by the union and the company (they have rules to follow blindly covering everything from payments to rest to where and how they can luggage!)
I have said bvefore I think our crew are the best but a new way of working is needed that costs less and allows flexability to the individual crew and the company.
BASSA may have protected massive inflated wages for a small number of people, but they are going to have to face reality that other airlines crew (and LGW) work in everyday.
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The Kakaba.
Slightly confused by your post.
From the bits I did comprehend I would suggest that most cabin crew do not agree that Pilots are paid market rate. Those who do have an imput on the matter will suggest the rate is above market, and the rest, (the vast majority), will not have a clue or desire about Pilots pay - other than it is more than cabin crew.
What is TAFB?
Does the rest of your post suggest that Pilots have common sense and plan everything to suit the companies needs, where as, cabin crew are senseless and unable to think for themselves - even on baggage stowage.
Is your post designed to inform or inflame?
Slightly confused by your post.
From the bits I did comprehend I would suggest that most cabin crew do not agree that Pilots are paid market rate. Those who do have an imput on the matter will suggest the rate is above market, and the rest, (the vast majority), will not have a clue or desire about Pilots pay - other than it is more than cabin crew.
What is TAFB?
Does the rest of your post suggest that Pilots have common sense and plan everything to suit the companies needs, where as, cabin crew are senseless and unable to think for themselves - even on baggage stowage.
Is your post designed to inform or inflame?
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PC767, I understood K's posting. TAFB=Time away from base. A term familiar to most pilots, it appears on every trip description - not sure why you as crew have never heard of it.
The quotation I used above didn't give the 45% figure, but I think you'll find that that is the case with Lufty vs BA crew.
BA management accept that we are paid market rate, this was confirmed by the chief financial officer at a meeting with pilots and BALPA at Waterside yesterday.
The quotation I used above didn't give the 45% figure, but I think you'll find that that is the case with Lufty vs BA crew.
BA management accept that we are paid market rate, this was confirmed by the chief financial officer at a meeting with pilots and BALPA at Waterside yesterday.
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Don't take this the wrong way but I have a question:
Why do you have crew rest on flights to both CAI and TLV when you actually get a fairly long nightstop there, for instance CAI being 33 hours long?
To be fair the crew don't have much time for a break on these flights as there isn't much time !!
If they do it's only 20 mins as the flight time and duty day is so short !!
Inflight breaks are not really based on the the preceding layover.
Why do you have crew rest on flights to both CAI and TLV when you actually get a fairly long nightstop there, for instance CAI being 33 hours long?
To be fair the crew don't have much time for a break on these flights as there isn't much time !!
If they do it's only 20 mins as the flight time and duty day is so short !!
Inflight breaks are not really based on the the preceding layover.
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Does the rest of your post suggest that Pilots have common sense and plan everything to suit the companies needs, where as, cabin crew are senseless and unable to think for themselves - even on baggage stowage.
The legal limits that may not be broken are contained in JPM, alkthough all crew are well versed in the saftey manual less are aware that this is the overriding document on all aspects of the opration (this includes cabin crew news)
Edit to add:
The company agree the pilots are good value for money and there are the correct numbers, any less pilots would result in cancellations of flights.
Can you really say either of those things about crew renumeration and numbers? If not changes are needed, I too think BA crew should get a premium salary for a premium product- roughly equivalent to our competitors.
Last edited by TheKabaka; 12th Mar 2009 at 19:29.
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One would not offset the other, so to look at other departments and assume you will be off the hook if they were hit, is fallacy.
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Most analysts seem to think the Company is looking in the right places for cuts. Anyone who thinks not, and can present a solid case, may get things changed.
Why for example they wasted Amadeus' time and money by abandoning the (by all accounts extremely highly cost saving) new departure control system 3 years ago, resulting in a long delay to improvement in IT efficiency and cost across the board.
Oh well.
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Overstress. You typed '45%' in a previous post. You cannot substantiate that figure, but you now think '45%' will be the case. Not a sound basis to prove I am overpaid.
I'm actually not interested in Pilots salaries. That is not the issue here. I was, however, supportive of my BA colleagues in BALPA when it was believed that Openskies would lead to a reduction in Pilots terms and conditions. What you get paid is down to how well BALPA and BA handle negotiations. To some your deal may appear poor - you work for a leading premium carrier, yet you are paid market rate. To others, clearly the majority on here, you are happy with your lot. But it seems that those of you who are happy need somewhere else to vent, and it appears that your airborne colleagues should bear the brunt. A few pages ago there was an accord. It was noted that if savings were to be made, then Waterside was full of 'managers' apparently doing nothing.
Here's my view. An airline needs Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew, and Customer Service/Check in staff. As a collective we represent the company and we are a tool to ensure the aims of our passengers are achieved. A reasonable amount of management and administration is required to manage us.
The rest are 'nice to haves' and when the chips are down should be the first to be reviewed. Look after your front line staff - they look after your customers, nee income.
By all means review parts of agreements. Relivance falls by the ways side as time progresses but be diplomatic about it. Why not approach the unions and state that the long range diversion agreement could do with a review, rather than a blanket 'you're too expensive - we're going to change your t&cs' and rub everybody up the wrong way. Cabin crew are genuinely worried about finances. Those who have been 'overpaid' for so long have financial and lifestyle commitments around their 'overpay'. Then there are those newer crew who are entitled to working tax credits because their pay is so low. I'm glad only a handful of BA cabin crew read pprune or or I could a collapse of CRM online.
I'm actually not interested in Pilots salaries. That is not the issue here. I was, however, supportive of my BA colleagues in BALPA when it was believed that Openskies would lead to a reduction in Pilots terms and conditions. What you get paid is down to how well BALPA and BA handle negotiations. To some your deal may appear poor - you work for a leading premium carrier, yet you are paid market rate. To others, clearly the majority on here, you are happy with your lot. But it seems that those of you who are happy need somewhere else to vent, and it appears that your airborne colleagues should bear the brunt. A few pages ago there was an accord. It was noted that if savings were to be made, then Waterside was full of 'managers' apparently doing nothing.
Here's my view. An airline needs Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew, and Customer Service/Check in staff. As a collective we represent the company and we are a tool to ensure the aims of our passengers are achieved. A reasonable amount of management and administration is required to manage us.
The rest are 'nice to haves' and when the chips are down should be the first to be reviewed. Look after your front line staff - they look after your customers, nee income.
By all means review parts of agreements. Relivance falls by the ways side as time progresses but be diplomatic about it. Why not approach the unions and state that the long range diversion agreement could do with a review, rather than a blanket 'you're too expensive - we're going to change your t&cs' and rub everybody up the wrong way. Cabin crew are genuinely worried about finances. Those who have been 'overpaid' for so long have financial and lifestyle commitments around their 'overpay'. Then there are those newer crew who are entitled to working tax credits because their pay is so low. I'm glad only a handful of BA cabin crew read pprune or or I could a collapse of CRM online.
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Here's my view. An airline needs Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew, and Customer Service/Check in staff. As a collective we represent the company and we are a tool to ensure the aims of our passengers are achieved. A reasonable amount of management and administration is required to manage us.
The rest are 'nice to haves' and when the chips are down should be the first to be reviewed. Look after your front line staff - they look after your customers, nee income.
The rest are 'nice to haves' and when the chips are down should be the first to be reviewed. Look after your front line staff - they look after your customers, nee income.
Distribution - massive operation
IT - backbone of operation
Website - do you want a website like Ryanair? Thought not.
Cargo - a not inconsequential operation in itself...top 10 world carrier
Engineering - goes without saying
Finance - who pays you, accounts for the revenues
Carbon trading - legal requirement
Alliances - essential for BA in directing traffic over network
Legal - quite necessary considering global nature of business
Audit - safety, financial, IT
Yes, it is customer-centric, but have you for one moment considered how the whole network operation fits together? It is not, and cannot be Ryanair - regardless of the number of unnecessary managers, there are many more essential but non-front line staff around.
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PC767
The 45% figure is accurate, I cannot point you to an internet link for it but my source has the correct information. You will probably be seeing it again soon.
The Lufthansa financial reports can be found on-line and look a lot better than BA's
The 45% figure is accurate, I cannot point you to an internet link for it but my source has the correct information. You will probably be seeing it again soon.
The Lufthansa financial reports can be found on-line and look a lot better than BA's
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Originally Posted by Galanjal
...the lasting impression of an airline will never be the ease of their website if the people they eventually meet in the airport or on aircraft is negative.
I've travelled on BA many times and it's always been a pleasant experience.
