BA and Project Columbus

[PC767]

thewisealderman.

I totally agree that the comparison between jobs and salaries is a huge and stupid red-herring. As cabin crew I am not interested in what flight crew get paid and nor for that matter am I interested in what engineers, cleaners and ceos are paid. But this argument extends to jobs outside of the airline. It is folly to compare my work and pay with a Tesco employee.

Here is my bone of contention. I'm not on an old contract. I'm not the person BA and supporters of cuts wheel out as an example. And my contention is not aimed at those who are on old contracts. Those are the terms they were employed under, and the terms they are entitled to. If BA wants rid of the old contract then it needs to make it attractive for people to give them up. Instead I'm branded an expensive resource, paid more than qualified pilots and will within 18 months be responsible for the demise of BA. The latest bit of BA spin which has been successfully challenged is that the company cannot afford new galleys for the A380 and will have to resort to recycling old B747 ones - because of my t&cs.

I will not deny that I operate some lucrative trips. But I will also point out that I earn a lower basic wage than suggested which is enhanced by my allowances to create an average wage. Better than Tescos - possibly. But whilst I mentioned earlier on that a threat to current crew is the hoardes of 'wannabes' , you will find that BA along with many other airlines is particularily picky when it comes to recruitment and the majority of the 'wannabes' would not be suitable for the long term retention of our purpose. Retaining existing customers and converting new ones. You'll see elsewhere on this website, (such as the virgin jobs threat), that it doesn't take much to hack customers off and lose their loyalty and their revenue. BA and other airlines need the right crew to protect their brands and more often than not this does not mean the cheapest crew. BA was until recently comparing cabin crew terms and conditions and management with Easyjet. Nothing wrong with Easyjet but they do not fly long haul and their customers do not pay four figures for a seat and service. The comparison wasn't relevant and was dropped. Short term BA could empty the jobcentre queues and replace all it's cabin crew. Long term that would see the 'promised' demise of the company. If a company wants to recruit what they consider to be the best and to promote what they consider to be the best then they need to pay the best. And that goes for Pilots, Engineers, Ground Staff and Cleaners. In fact at present I would suggest the only anomaly is the best pay for not quite the best management.

[Hotel Mode]

Excellent post PC767

I hope BASSA takes a pragmatic view of what is coming. Their refusal to accept any changes may have forced Willies hand. CC costs are the elephant in the room as far as BA are concerned and he may take a radical approach that may not have been required had BASSA been more pragmatic earlier.

The average cost per crew member in the CAA charts does not necessarily reflect salary. The costs of administrating the allowance/box system must be high, quite apart from the insane management structure. I've noticed that CC managers have suddenly started turning up at every briefing..... job justification??

Theres a whole pile of stuff that Rod Eddington should have dealt with. Willy has to deal with it and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

[thewisealderman]

pc767

" a company wants to recruit what they consider to be the best and to promote what they consider to be the best then they need to pay the best. And that goes for Pilots, Engineers, Ground Staff and Cleaners"

Unfortunately not in the real world. its called marketing.

[stormin norman]

I've noticed that CC managers have suddenly started turning up at every briefing..... job justification??

Probally,they have more than enough of them.

[whattimedoweland]

Carnage Matey and Hotel Mode,

You really are heading for the 'Pprune Hall of fame'' with 411A for being so Anti cabin crew!!.

Well stated but no I don't have the ATPL(and never said I have) but hoping in the future my son will,together with respect for others.(unlike some people on here).

Yes we BA Crew Crew should be bench marked against other airlines.
I would also like the level playing field of bench marking against the major European carriers as BALPA did and not UK based thank you.

I think you will find we come well down this list!!.

In reply to the comment about bringing pilot pay into this thread.
The reason I did this is because I'm sick of having my 'supposed' earnings discussed on this forum by pilots to build up a case against BA Cabin Crew and backing management in their attempts to reduce our earnings.What is good for one is good for the other!!.

No I don't earn as much as a pilot and would be stupid to expect to do so.That was never the point.I also agree that it is wrong for any cabin crew member to earn more than the second/third in charge.(F/O)

If it makes you happy I think the 5th/6th of February is going to make your day!!.This will be the day all of us in IFS are going to take the biggest hit we've had.A true and royal shafting.

As always though,for the few arrogant one's on here there are always the vast majority I'll be pleased to have a beer with this weekend in Dickens Bar.
As pointed out I earn so much on this trip I can buy you all a drink,if you care to introduce yourselves.

In return you can buy me a Tusker in Nairobi (When you're on DRAFT)!!. ŁŁŁŁŁ.

WTDWL.

[yaletown]

Some pilots always tend to hold a dim view of what we do, and some take the stance that we are plate layers only. You can always tell which ones think like this, and it is best to ignore them. Do not respond to their comments or engage them in any type of conversation; by doing so, you are wasting your time and only adding fuel to their egocentric and self absorbed fire, so to speak. We do not discuss how they should be paid in their forums; they should not be here trying to discuss our issues.

I know at other airlines, when coming to contract negotiations, pilots rarely ever support the cabin crew. I know of one a few years back,where the pilots negotiated a great contract, and then turned around and pressured the cabin crew into taking pay cuts and creating a two tier payscale. They actually became quite nasty to the cabin crew. I have no idea why they bother us, as they always seem to get what they want anyways. If they do take a pay concession, it is usually marginal, but they always come back with some arguement of how hard it is for them as they have families (as if we don't) Awwww..boohooo brings me to tears (not). I say get rid of the BMW and the second home, that may help! (correction: get rid of the Aston Martin..silly me).

[Carnage Matey!]

WTDWL - it's not good accusing people of being anti cabin crew because you don't like what they say. Ever heard of playing the ball and not the man? BA are going to go to your union and say exactly what we are saying. What are you going to do then? Stamp your feet and say they are anti cabin crew? Accusing those who say things you don't like of being anti cabin crew is just burying your head in the sand. We've seen whats coming, it's a shame for you BASSA didn't.

[Da Dog]

Yaletown, now that has made me laugh

If you stand on my side of the fence then we always say that cabin crew always get what they want

Big picture, or are you fishing?? The latter I suspect

[VS-LHRCSA]

Interesting comparison with Tescos, thewisealderman. However:

1. If there is an incident at Tescos, an ambulance can be there in minutes. If someone dies there, the ambulance comes and takes them away. They're not forced to work around the dead body and cope with relatives and traumatised passengers for an extended period. I won't deny Tescos employees will from time to time have to administer first aid. First Aid, however should not be confused with Aviation Medicine.

2. They sleep in their own bed at night. If you sent a Tescos employee to Australia for 9 days, you'd have to pay them some sort of allowance and cover expenses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down anyone who works at Tescos. I've worked at Sainsbury's and it can be hard work. You are often dealing with drunks, theives, chavs and drug addicts. Customers treat you like crap and it's not as though you can have them offloaded.

You can compare the cabin crew role with many other jobs but unless these jobs involve some sort of travel away from home, you can't really compare wages AND COSTS.

[Da Dog]

Whats the difference between 1st aid and Aviation medicine?

[VS-LHRCSA]

First Aid is basically that, first or initial aid. Teaching a novice the very basics to help preserve life until help arrives. It is quite general and covers a wide range of possible injuries and ailments.

Aviation Medicine goes that bit further and is specific to the onboard scenario, where you may have access to certain equipment and medication, that you need to know how to use and administer. Procedures for onboard treatment of many situations can be different. Different legislation applies and there is also that aftermath that needs to be managed.

I'm currently doing an external Aviation Medicine course, as part of my studies. The prerequisite is Senior First Aid. They are two separate qualifications.

[Da Dog]

That is all very good, but can you, for example administer a syringe? Are you allowed to suture a person? Can you administer medication not available to the ordinary person over the counter?

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by PC767

...you will find that BA along with many other airlines is particularily picky when it comes to recruitment and the majority of the 'wannabes' would not be suitable for the long term retention of our purpose.

PC767: Nothing personal old chap, but I find that statement possibly the most arrogant and patronising thing I have read on PPRuNe in many a long month.

What makes you think that just because someone is currently unemployed they're somehow not capable of learning how to do a Cabin Crew job? I have several friends who are currently unemployed. many with University educations and professional qualifications.
They have become unemployed through economic forces, not through any dearth of ability or through any fault of their own making.
Certainly the ones I know personally would be more than capable of carrying out the functions of Cabin Crew, whether your opinion of the primary role of CC is the "safety" aspect or that of "Coffee Chucker"

I would add that as most of them are in the 30-45 age range they would do the job with a far higher sense of maturity and responsibility than many of the CC in their 20's that I encounter as they have more important priorities in life than partying, reality TV and make-up*. Like feeding their families.

You say "...the majority of the 'wannabes'" would not be suitable. Well, that's fine. BA wouldn't be looking to employ the majority, would they?
Are you saying that after you and your companions took on the job the mould was broken, and humanity is somehow no longer capable of breeding individuals with the "Right Stuff" to serve drinks at 35,000ft? I think not somehow.

If this attitude is the prevailing one amongst existing Cabin Crew then I fear you may be in for a nasty shock when market forces go head-to-head with BASSA and your insular community.

*Yes, yes, I realize that not all young CC fit this sweeping generalization, and those of you who do your job with courtesy, maturity and in a responsible fashion have my respect and surely have nothing to fear from an influx of eager new starters. You'll be the guys they'll look up to and use as role models after all.

[PC767]

Ten West. I did not question the capabilities of the unemployed nor their reason for unemployment. My point was about long term brand protection. My wife has worked in airline recruitment, (not for BA), for many years. I can state that her airline has recieved 35,000 applications for 300 temporary cabin crew positions. By the end of the recruitment campaign just over 200 were employed. These figures do not represent the abilities of individuals but of the severe standards the airlines place on candidates. She has run many assessment days for upto 80 people at a time and placed only 1 or 2 people forward for selection.

The point you make about people in the 30-45 years age range is very relevant. Passengers find a sense of confidence and reassurance in crew of that age group looking after there needs. However many people in that age bracket have families and financial commitments and a current new starter salary simply isn't sustainable. Crew who start their careers in their twenties and remain loyal to a company have become too expensive for CEOs such as Walsh. Our managers here in the appropriately remaned ICE (Inflight Customer Experience) have very kindly announced at recent forums that crew with over 15 years experience no-longer like their jobs and columbus will allow them to move on and do other things or fulfil life time ambitions. That is patronising tosh.

As for breaking the mold. Not a chance. There are many fine people not yet employed by airlines waiting for a chance. But they will not be attracted, on balance, by poor renumeration or retained when the realisation sets in that they could earn the same if not more and be at home with friends and family by not working for an airline. Myself, I feel honoured that I have been employed by both Britannia and BA but I also realise that honour alone will not cover the mortgage nor feed the kids. (And note that I live in the UK average priced house, with kids sharing rooms and drive a 2000 vauxhall. I'm not looking for more, just the chance to keep the old car on the road and not to allow my family to become a burden on the state.)

I've laid my case on the table. I understand the need for change and I do not have an 'over my dead body attitude'. Nor do I believe my BASSA reps have. I speak to them directly, face to face. Quick question - do you? Or do you just hear the chinese whispers and leaked propaganda. If the company are willing then I am certain that comprisises and solutions can be agreed. But the company - at least in ICE - do not appear to be willing and are playing games with the reps. This clearly is a top down attitude with Walsh's 'a reasonable man gets nowhere' philosophy being prevelant and preached within the management ranks.

Your case is summed up with the comment 'BASSA and your insular community'. We could advance to slings and arrows but I won't. I like the vast majority of the people I work with regardless of how many wings are upon their uniform badges and have cordial working relationships based upon mutual trust and respect. End.

[pinkaroo]

Ten West, I have read and reread your last post and I am beginning to under stand the attitude displayed by some of the more emotional posters towards colleagues like you. I can feel the sneer on your face as you type, dismissing their role as being merely the sort of job the temporarily unemployed undertake in between jobs! I have spent years on trips with crews interacting downroute and know it is not easy dealing with different characters but your self belief in your professional superiority speaks volumes about your own shortcomings. Not so long ago flightcrew were in a world of despair, dealing with rumour and conjecture. You were engaging in legal jousting with your employer, leading seemingly to a deal you seem quite happy with. Why not dwell on that a minute?

[Ten West]

PC767:

I understand your point, and as I said many posts ago, the fact remains that market forces will eventually dictate the going rate for the job.
I certainly won't be dancing in the streets with glee as some have said. If you can persuade the management not to cut your salary, then great! More power to you! Maybe this could be achieved by BASSA allowing a little more flexibility.
No-one is in danger of being worked to the point of exhaustion as there is the small matter of CAP371 to ensure that scenario never ocurrs.
I merely reiterate my point made several pages ago that those of your number who see the job as a free ride and constantly take an adversarial approach with their employer will eventually get their comeupppance.
Crew like yourself who care enough about their careers to take the time to post on a forum such as this will surely be the ones the company wants to retain?
As for the salary being insufficient to meet the needs of modern life, well, that may well be true. But surely good, reliable CC will always be in demand. Someone in this position could consider a move to a better paying position, a change of airline, or even a move into the Bizjet sector where good CC are worth their weight in gold?
Use BA as a springboard to bigger and better things!

Pinkaroo:

Sorry? I think you must have read someone else's post by mistake there.
I'm not "Sneering" as I write this post, or indeed any other one for the matter of that.
Nor am I suggesting that Cabin Crew is "merely the sort of job the temporarily unemployed undertake in between jobs!". My contention was that Cabin Crew is a position that can be attained by anyone with the people skills, education, common sense and motivation to do the job. Cabin Crew are not a special breed and irreplaceable. Neither are flight crew.
My point was that there are plenty of people out there who would happily accept a new set of terms and conditions that the "Old Guard" would find unacceptable.
They would love to give it a shot, and if certain elements within the CC community and their representatives carry on with their old-fashioned attitudes they may well get the chance.
Your priority should be to get the union to market yourself and your colleagues as an attractive and sound business proposition to the company rather than engaging in wrangles with me.

I'm not the one you have to convince I'm afraid.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Da Dog

The first two, no but yes we can administer medication, including temgesic, hypostop, that sort of thing plus therapeutic oxygen. We are taught how do CPR in the aisle, how to use the Medlink service. Not overly complicated but more specific to the aircraft environment, factoring in that we could be some hours away from a hospital or ambulance.

[flapsforty]

Please raise your game a tad folks.

Remember what your Mum taught you about being polite?
It applies here like else where in life.

Remember what your first grade teacher taught you about punctuation and the use of capital letters?
It applies here too.

Remember what it said about personal attacks when you signed up for PPRuNe?
It still applies.

If you don't want your posts deleted, write like a professional adult rather than a hung-over teenager on speed.

[Ten West]

Received and understood.

We seem to be just going round in circles here anyway. Several non-CC members have attempted to contribute, but it seems that any post which runs counter to the cabin crew accepted line is immediately seized upon and its author pursued with McCarthy-like zeal. I'm getting bored now with explaining and defending myself after every post when all I was hoping for was a bit of constructive debate.

As I have no wish to cause upset to anyone on here I think I'll leave you to it and go back to lurking.

Good luck to all of you with regard to the 5th and 6th of Feb.
I'll keep an interested eye on the thread because I'm curious to see what happens.

10W out.

[Da Dog]

Thank you for your reply VS, I stand a little more educated