regularpassenger

ACAS do exist: http://www.acas.org.uk/

ACAS negotiate the middle ground between the union demands and the company's requirements. The problem here is that there doesn't seem to be any specific union demands so how can middle ground be found?

If the Cabin Crew aren't communicating with the union specific requirements they would be happy with, how can any discussions take place?

Else it would be an excellent idea

coolhandlu

I don't imagine you will get much support if you choose to picket The Office.

The crew are not the only vital part of the organisation. There are a miriad of critical jobs done by dedicated people, many of whom earn less than crew, without which there wouldn't be an airline. Without Engineering there wouldn't be any planes for you to fly on. Without the Contact Center there wouldn't be sufficient passengers to fly on them. Without the IT systems we wouldn't be taking any bookings OR payment for bookings. The list goes on and on and on.

No one that works in The Office (or any of the other VAA buildings) can be expected to support your demands, not least because neither you, the Union, VAA management nor any of the ground based staff know what those demands are. It appears from these forums that this is the Unions fault, not the crews.. but that's irrelevent now.

All I see, and my colleagues can see, is that the Union negotiated a deal, TWICE, recommended it, and it was rejected. How anyone can blame VAA management is beyond me. They aren't clairvoyant, how were they supposed to know that Union members would turn down a Union recommended deal?

If your threatened industrial action is disruptive enough, you WILL threaten the future of Virgin Atlantic. Therefore you WILL threaten the jobs of all the people who work so hard to get you the planes, on the tarmac, at the right time, with sufficient passengers for you to be able to fly. Do you expect to receive support from these people? These people, who, at the very least, can now expect to receive nothing or yet another less than the rate of inflation payrise due at least partly to this dispute?

The infamously good Virgin crew are only part of the reason passengers fly with us. Many of the pax on any given flight will have chosen it simply because it is the cheapest fare available to them, or perhaps because we are the airline flying Virgin Holidays passengers to their destination, or perhaps because of the generous flying club rewards we offer compared to other airlines. Or because Upper Class costs only the same as BA business class. I could go on. The point is, crew are not the only department that make VAA what it is. Yes, you can break us if you choose. You can loose me my job, you can loose yourselves your jobs.

I personally agree with you long service posters who ask why you should have to leave after making a career with Virgin. I agree there should be some sort of recognition of long service that enables you to stay. As many others have stated however, when it comes to wages, market forces win. If Virgin can crew their flights to a satisfactory level with an apparently bottomless pit of young people who can survive on low wages, then they will. Simple as that.

Do me, yourselves, and the rest of VAA a favour. Call off the strike and get back to the negotiating table. While you're at it, tell the rest of us what it is EXACTLY that you are after. I am sure if the ground staff understood what it was you wanted and why (and it was reasonable), we would support you. If you had the support of non-crew too, you would be unstoppable.

Fournier Boy

That i think was a particularly well put post coolhandlu, the best I've heard in a long time.

strike1

Scooby you make me laugh, well just arrived from a New Year trip 3 crew down!!!! what a surprise, and whilst ill get a miserable pay for working my ass off and making sure pax would not notice the crew down, my so called " colegues" who will turn up to work will be " bribed " by VS with still pathetic money ( but more than ill get) to screw their colegues !!!
RB s letter, well............ i better not say what i think, but it has made me more determined to strike, so basically we are all stupid for thinking that loyalty and hard work should gain us some financial recognition OH NO NO!! we joined VS because we LOVE the airline so much and Sir RB, that we just should never think that we will be recognized, and the 12 years + service " sorry useless, go somewhere else" well isnt he nice!!!! im amazed he still has that image of the great employer......take not future virgin recruits .. u are useless, u service a purpose "" work ur ass off till u drop dead" and then good bye as soon as u dare to ask for some sort of recognition!! makes me so angry.
Well on my crew, most of the crew will stay at home, except 2 poor new ones, they have no opportunity even though they felt terrible for being forced to work, and the beautes who will have to don a tabard and work as crew and not deliver massage " disgusting"
Lets hope people really think hard at what they will do to crew realtions if they turn up for work and screw their collegues who will be risking everything for ALL of us to be recognized !!

scoobydooo

Having engaged in far too many ciders ( home brewed)

P.S. yes, grammar and spelling is not my forte, if I had a pound for every mistake I would be as well off as a BA crew member .
...Sorry, sometimes (normally) I forget to spell and grammar check as passion takes over.

No I am not a union rep, I think the union reps have a hard enough job without having someone like me to contend with, I will instead continue to alternate between crew member and wanna be rep engaging in childish banter with ocassional insight of wisdome earnt from all the crew and passengers I engage from day to day.

(Besides VA would probably boot my a*s out the door faster than we can say "Fur coffee ?" if they found out who agent Scoobydooo was).

magicE

Strike1, This is directed at you, as you are obviously very keen to Strike.

What do you think you will achieve by going on Strike.

I am not trying to make a point or get on your back, but would seriously like to here what you think you (being crew in general) will achieve/succeed in?

Tom Sawyer

Strike1; You refer to flying crew down. Was it a case of the flight was rostered to fly with crew short? Or was it case of the crew called in sick / didn't bother?
Just dispatched a flight today, 3 crew down because of sickness. The ones called out , x2 went sick when called out and the other one just didn't turn up. Did a flight yesterday that was 4 down due to "sickness". Christams Day was similar, but all the rostered ground staff turned up. Now really, how can you blame the company for this kind of situation? It is really frustating reading comments about flying crew down, when it is crew colleagues "stitching up" other crew, no contribution from the company to the situation that I can see. No doubt there will be comments about it being due to poor morale, but this is a persitent problem that has been going on for years in good times and bad. Would an increase in the crew down payments resolve a situation like this? I cannot see how. In someways it could actually exacerbate the scenario. And as an aside, if one of my "team" doesn't turn up for whatever reason, the rest of us do not get a compensation payment, but still have to cover that persons work and it is "front line" and so also could affect pax service and schedule. (No comments about get a union to get you one then, please!)
Now doubt someone will reply and defend this situation. But for those of us on the ground who see this, it is very frustating in the current climate. Is it any wonder that many other departments do not support your cause?

coolhandlu

Well said Tom

greigok

Good Post Tom. I have been saying this all along...the reason half these flights are crew down is cause crew hate the trips they been rostered or they just can't be bothered. Then they still want crew down payments increased.

Perhaps the crew need to tell each other not to call in sick when there quite well and healthy.

scoobydooo

yes, also by redesigning allowances so that the difference between allowances for a flight of equal duration but different destinations does not vary so drastically. e.g. Delhi vs Washinton. A flat rate e.g. duty pay would help reduce sickness and the amount of people trying to swap trips.

greigok

Actually there is no excuse for people letting there colleagues down, just because of the allowance down route is not good or gone down.

Then the ones that do cry sick...get a flight that is crew down have to work harder...oh and guess what are the first to moan.

Come back with a better argument!!

The Moo

At BA do you know how much we get for going a crew member down ? £250 per sector.

Tom Sawyer

And does it resolve crew down on BA flights?

greigok

Yeah that's ba lhr..my housemate does long some long haul out of lgw and always crew down and doesn't get anything.

greigok

Hi Tom, In answer to your question does it resolve the crew down..that would be no as they have to cancel flight at lhr ba because they do not even have the minimum crew sometimes.

exvicar

A flat rate is inappropriate. The allowances are, in the eyes of the UK tax man, to be used for purchasing food and beverage down route hence they are paid in cash and free of tax. I do believe that you deserve a better deal but a down route allowance is supposed to be just that.

Virgin89

The Moo, why do people continue to go on about what BA get verus what VS get. This has been going on for years and will continue to go on I'm sure, however it's pointless.

BA are recruiting right now so what don't people go and work for them?

To be honest it's because some people at Virgin want the VS lifestyle and the BA package. That is never going to happen.

I have many friends in BA who love the money they get, however want the VS lifestyle, the flexibility, the chance to request, good perks etc, but they know they won't get it at BA, so they stay for the money.

Regarding all the talk about the company now starting to contact crew who are operating over the strike days (i've just had one of these calls) to check to see who is and who isn't operating, what company wouldn't do this? They are trying to maintain the operation as did BA and AF recently during their disruptions and I don't blame VS for doing this at all.

I hear that there are many people who are offering to stay on their flights, work extra days and give up leave. Not the 28 people that the last text I received seem to mention.

Like I've said before, respect people who want to and are willing to come to work and equally respect people who feel that striking is the thing they should do.

I would respect anyone who comes to work and helps the company out or equally decides to stand on a picket line. I respect anyone for their choice, what I would find hard is people who just go sick and stay at home.

I wish everyone luck over the next few days. We are all going to need.

do-not-disturb

I have read all the threads on this topic and would like to share my views with you, rightly or wrongly.

Firstly, I am VS cabin crew (JNR) and have been for a few years.

Secondly, I am not in the Union, for precisely this reason, when they need to earn their pennies and their back is against the wall, they let their members down, which will be evident later during industrial action.

I would emplore every single cabin crew member who voted yes to industrial action to seriously think about what they are doing for the future of their company and the security of their jobs.

I left a better paid job to come to virgin, and I joined knowing full well that the salary wasn’t great, but that was the choice I made, and adjusted my means to get by.

We all want more money, every single one of us, Human nature unfortunately dictates that these days, but please be realistic in what you are demanding. I listen to crew who voted for action and in asking them why, I get very different reasons. The majority I have spoken to actually say “because we have had enough of being treated like Sh*t” or similar, that “we want to be recognised and rewarded for what we do”. A lot of people say its because they want more money, but it hasn’t been the majority voice, so I’m left very confused as to what the strike action will be for.

Lets go waaayyy back to the start of the pay negotiations. Any pay increase (which can also be called “cost of living rise”) should be based on cost of living (inflation) and any changes to the role in question, ie, new/more work, increase or new skills used or reward for any training or specialist new to that role. In the last twelve months there have been no changes to the role of cabin crew in any rank, therefore the pay increase, it is fair to say therefore, can only be based on inflation. We actually work less as well, thanks to the 900hr rule.

Inflation at the time I believe was 3.9%, so , and this is where the whole thing starts…. The offer of a 2% pay increase by the Director of Cabin Services was a complete insult and a clear statement that she and her management team held little or no regard or respect for the community for which she is accountable, and it has been this initial insult which is the backbone of the industrial action.

Strip everything else away and what you have is an offer of basic increase of 4.8%, no strings, which is above inflation, higher than any other uk airline, so how can that not be deemed reasonable and fair???

So if industrial action is to have better terms and conditions and to feel more valued for the job we do, then PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. Accept the 4.8% and use your union further to put pressure on the company to ‘shake the management tree’ as there is a vote of no confidence in the management team, where implied trust and confidence has broken down.

If you want more money, PLEASE DO NOT STRIKE. This is what has been offered, so accept it and use it as foundations for future pay negotiations as the crew community will certainly be a body that will be listened to carefully in the future.

Many comparisons are made between BA, pilots, ground staff, sep trainers. Forget this. BA is a different kettle of fish. Always will be. If you want to come up to the same level as BA, then use your union to negotiate higher rates of overtime pay, day off payments, trip allowance, crew down payments, incentives on high sickness routes. This is where BA earn their money, due to what they have got their union to negotiate for them, separate to basic pay increase. Pilots have a much stronger union and have differing terms and conditions which are contractual. There is a worldwide shortage of pilots, which is why terms and conditions are more favourable. Even at the low salary offered, there is no end of applications for cabin crew, and this has to be realised and accepted.

As I go into the new year, it is with sadness and fear, as I am unsure what the future holds for me, as do those that will strike.

I can’t help thinking that where we are divided at the moment, some of those who strike and some of us that don’t will be joined together at a later date either at interviews at other airlines, or signing on the dole, due to the damage this will cause. One step at a time guys. They know they’ve ballsed up. Give them a chance to make it right. It won’t be over night and it won’t be all at once. I write this with the upmost respect for all the views printed on previous threads. Best regards

vs_lhr

Rolling around on the floor with Scooby. Could be fun. Hey, I ain't gonna knock it until I've tried it...

I was reading a few long posts on V-Flyer today, starting about a third of the way down page 12 with frangipan's summary SRB's letter and where both crew and management have miss-stepped. A longer post on the same page, again by frangipan, is to my mind, one of the best summaries of management mistakes. Things we all kind of knew where happening around us, but never before have I seen such clarity in thought and it's an eye-opening read that I recommend you have a look at.

Now, back to rolling around on the floor with Scooby.

Your plan is reasonably good, although I think you have to be realistic and rule out getting anything in 2007. The negotiation is over. Both sides are too strong headed to want to give in - no matter how much cooing we do from the sidelines. Taking it to a strike has cost everyone dearly, and I still believe the fault lies squarely at the feet of the union who were recommending deals they didn't get a mandate for. As far as I can tell, the company goal is now to crush the strike and that means zilch for crew in terms of negotiations this year.

All those who are still advocating a strike, I really am at a lost to understand what you think that will achieve. As you can see, VS aren't going to move at all. This will just mean lost earnings for you and an excuse for no rises long into the future. As others have said, unfair as it may seem, I wouldn't be surprised if strikers where just 'managed' out of the company.

The union have failed you, and are leading you into a no-win situation. Why not simply abandon them and tell your managers that you have no faith in Boyd but need a deal to avoid action. Then send Scooby in to represent you. That'd sort it out

magicE

I'm glad you have just said that vs-lhr, exactly what i was trying to say a few posts back. Must be the way I wrote it?