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The Virgin Strike Thread II

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The Virgin Strike Thread II

Old 6th Jan 2008, 18:38
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And guess who owns the leasing companies for VA aircraft?
Who? Surely it isn't a subsidiary of Virgin Atlantic, since any other company would be entirely irrelevant.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 18:48
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Yes, that's right other companies within or subsiduaries of the Virgin Group. That's why VA can say they only make approx 6 million profit cos the other Virgin or SRB owned companies have creamed their profit off first.

SRB and/or the Virign Group have amassed their fortune this way - clever accouting - it's what all good businesses do.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 19:28
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Yes, that's right other companies within or subsiduaries of the Virgin Group. That's why VA can say they only make approx 6 million profit cos the other Virgin or SRB owned companies have creamed their profit off first.

SRB and/or the Virign Group have amassed their fortune this way - clever accouting - it's what all good businesses do.
Who exactly is this leasing company that Virgin Group own? That's a new one on me.

BTW, If one Virgin Group company sells products to another Virgin Group company, that is perfectly legal and above board. Do you believe companies that Virgin Group has an interest in should sell it products to one another at zero cost? Because they are all separate companies, and have different investors, they must act as separate entities.

And again there's repeated allegations of embezzlement for which there is no evidence other than hearsay and a desperate wish that it would be the case so your case against Branson is stronger. If you distrust your employer so much, I suggest you leave. I have very little tolerance for someone who calls the boss a thief, and various other insults. Sir, you show no respect.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 20:19
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I have not suggested that anyone is a thief nor have I said this kind of practic is wrong. I am suggesting that this is another reason why VA can show such little profit for such a large turnover.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 20:25
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I have not suggested that anyone is a thief nor have I said this kind of practic is wrong. I am suggesting that this is another reason why VA can show such little profit for such a large turnover.
Please provide some evidence of your allegations, otherwise I will have to assume they are untrue.

Can you also supply the name of the leasing company which is supposed to be owned by the Virgin Group, or is that more fabrication?
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 20:52
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This really is descending into a farce - he said, she said banter with little or no foundation. Nor, in general, with any ability to take the blinkers off and see things from another perspective.

To answer a suggestion from a few posts back - there is another route to take regarding crossing the picket line. Walk with head held high, assured of the belief that you are doing the correct thing, for you. I have zero qualms about going to work, offering my services, and feeling quite content that it is the correct thing for me to do. Suggestions that I will be an outsider on future trips, will be sipping my beer in bar alone etc are met with derision and deserve little more comment than that.

I don't understand why people are striking, but I respect your democratic right to do so. Be adult and respect mine to go to work, minus the rumour mongering about how sad my life will be downroute.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 20:59
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well said JCDCON
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 21:09
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vs_lhr

I think scorpion is just highlighting what is a very common business practise. If I have "UK LTD A" with many employees and "Overseas LTD B". "Overseas Ltd B" charges "Uk Ltd A" for services rendered, however because "Overseas Ltd B" is the best in its field in the whole world its services come at a premium in comparison to any other and as such considerably more expensive than "Different Overseas Ltd" or "Different UK Ltd B".

It is a common practise used and a legal way (just) to reduce the profit made by one company "on paper". There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, the former being what I think scorpion is alluding too, nothing dodgy, nothing illegal just that one way to reduce costs/tax.

Regards
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 21:21
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Well
Why not just check about ownership here before making assumptions over ownership. As you can see, all owned by VA but some chartered?
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...regmark=G-VXLG

Last edited by warkman; 6th Jan 2008 at 21:33.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 21:38
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Warkman,

Based on searching the A/C regs I think a few are owned by VAA but the majority are chartered ie leased by VAA and the holding comp is based in the US
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 21:51
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kind comments

I would like to thank all of you for your kind comments.they have picked me up no end.
I will not post anymore comment on this site but look forward to flying with you all
regards
paul
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 22:29
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I think scorpion is just highlighting what is a very common business practise. If I have "UK LTD A" with many employees and "Overseas LTD B". "Overseas Ltd B" charges "Uk Ltd A" for services rendered, however because "Overseas Ltd B" is the best in its field in the whole world its services come at a premium in comparison to any other and as such considerably more expensive than "Different Overseas Ltd" or "Different UK Ltd B".

It is a common practise used and a legal way (just) to reduce the profit made by one company "on paper". There is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, the former being what I think scorpion is alluding too, nothing dodgy, nothing illegal just that one way to reduce costs/tax.
As usual, my friend, you present the argument a little more coherently. However, the difference in this situation is that company A is owned by companies 1, 2 & 3, and company B is owned by companies 1 & 4. Any syphoning off of cash will no-doubt lead companies 2, 3 & 4 to ask serious questions about where their profits are. Legitimate business between two companies with similar investors is one thing; attempting to move large wedges of cash from one entity to another without a proper business transaction is likely to raise eyebrows at both the tax office and the other investors. There seems to be a lot of accusations of this, but no evidence.

This is, however, a mute point, because Virgin do not own ILFC or GECAS or any of the other aircraft leasing companies.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 23:55
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FB then you should have posted before when someone asked whether VS own or lease aircraft




Unlike some people, I do not live on the internet all the time. Just because I've got better things to do than sit in front of a computer, shouldn't be a reason to make smarmy comments.




Why not just check about ownership here before making assumptions over ownership. As you can see, all owned by VA but some chartered?




Nope again this is wrong. GINFO is a list of who aeroplanes are Registered to, not nescessarily who owns them. Virgin may have G-V whatever registered to them, but that does not mean they own that airframe.

As for the name of the leasing company who owns the Virgin Aircraft, my memory is not that good, but its definately Los Angeles based.
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Old 6th Jan 2008, 23:58
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Just returned from a flight, here's some of what happened!

Flt met by ground staff member wearing budgie hoop earrings and mini skirt so short it could have been a belt, and a red chequered bomber style jacket with a big furry hood.

Both sectors we had problems with catering, not enough of it to go around in both J and Y, numerous IFE problems, broken dvd players, special meals not loaded, reading lights not working, uniq pax given wrong seats and limo didn't turn up, onboard 'phones not working, crew down and a toilet blocked off. Chocka flights both ways. On return to LHR, no ground staff to meet a/c when we arrived and waited nearly an hour for the last 2 wchr pax to be taken off.

Ho hum, just another day's work apologising and trying to put things to right so pax enjoy their flight!! But you know what, as we disembarked o/b and i/b, there was nothing but compliments about the crew. What a shame SRB doesn't appreciate us as much as the pax do!! With all the odds stacked against us and so many things going wrong, pax were still full of praise for the crew and they worked flat out both ways and with all the doom and gloom and morale at an all time low, they still gave 101% to the company, and all of the crew on my flight were supporting the strike including the IFBT!!

Since SRB's letter, many many more crew have decided to support the strike. That letter was like adding fuel to the fire, it has put so many people's back up! What a diplomatic move that was!!
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 00:45
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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I'm sorry I feel the need to post this because I and many of my colleagues do believe that you deserve better terms and conditions than you have at the moment. However, reading the last salvo of posts, many of you should really educate yourselves a little bit better rather than spout off with opinions about the company which show you up to be little more than loudmouths with no comprehension of how business operates.

You would do well to remember the old adage of "better to keep your mouth shut and have everyone think you are a fool rather than open it and prove beyond a doubt that you really are one". To read some of the assumptions in the above posts about how Virgin lease or own their aircraft and how money is moved between companies in the same group is enough to fuel a 13 week comedy series on TV.

If this is the level of support and intelligent thought [sic] that the strike has then you have lost before you begin. No wonder you have such a dismal prospect ahead of you if, collectively, you can't put together a coherent argument as to why you are actually striking after the company twice had an agreement with your union reps for a deal. Now there is nothing on the board and all we read is squeals of hope that something, anything, will be put on the table by management.

The resignation of your ex head rep, whilst sad, is a little bit late. It should have happened after the first rejected vote in the agreement your reps had with the company. Still, better late than never. It's just sad that the rest of the team that got your aspirations so wrong don't see the need.

The management are confident that they re going to break this strike. No amount of gesturing by Scooby and other union die-hards is going to alter that fact. You have all been let down by incompetent reps and union leaders who have failed miserably to communicate with you all. Now you are left in limbo with a management, incompetent or not, who will revel in the misery your union has caused you. You were warned about agreeing to industrial action without the solid and overwhelming support of your membership.

You now need to let your union know what you think of their actions. The only way out of the current situation I can think of is if a few, sensible, level headed, individuals are prepared to stand up and be counted and call for a mass resignation from the union and to form a company representative council of cabin crew and approach the management with an offer of continued negotiations.

Assuming that they can muster at least 51% of the cabin crew workforce to leave the union and join a representative council then you may have some hope of salvaging something from this fiasco. Your position in terms of industrial relations has been set back at least 5 to 10 years and you need to organise yourselves a bit better than the pathetic "unite" union have!

Even if you could get around 60% to agree to have an elected company representative council and say 3,000 of you agreed to subscribe 5 a month, then you would get an income of 15,000 which would more than cover the cost of purchasing independent legal representation cover and for the hire of a decent negotiating consultant and some training for your elected reps. The only problem I see is that you don't have enough people with the guts and intelligence to step forward and take on this task.

Once again, you have our support for your demands for better terms and condition. You just don't have our support for the stupidity of the actions of your membership in deciding to engage in industrial confrontation without overwhelming support from your membership.

Good luck. You're going to need it.
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 07:00
  #476 (permalink)  
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I have just thought of a solution for both the company and you cabin crew

Now you want more money and i suspect this is the root of the problem....

Company want more money also and cant afford to pay you your demands

So we need to meet somewhere in the middle.....

HHHmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well lets take a leaf out of Ryainair's book..... I suggest a calender of a selected few crew.... (i would be available for selection and photo shoots)
Scantily clad and drapped over a belt loader and catering cart...... perhaps even holding aloft a picketers oil drum....

Sell it on board and online and you can have part of the proceeds to make up your money.....

They say charity starts at home
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 07:35
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Kasual Observer,
I brought up the question regarding accounting as I remember receiving a Balpa presentation after I left, which very clearly pointed at creative accounting and blew a hole in the myth that VS could not afford a payrise. Funnily enough Balpa secured a very good payrise. One further example of this is the purchase of the Alitalia -400s which having been acquired at a very low price ended up by being leased back to the company at very high rates. Its a shame the company acquired these and recruited 200 people without anywhere for them to fly to. Luckily for Virgin Sept 11 gave them an opportunity to sort themselves out.

Last edited by Right Way Up; 7th Jan 2008 at 07:57.
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 09:52
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Devil VA aircraft ownership

WARKMAN.
I think you will find most of VA aircraft are chartered. A rough check shows that of the first 20 aircraft on their list they only own TWO. The rest are ALL chartered - but I do not know who from. I couldn't be bothered to check the rest.
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 10:27
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Having watched the debate from afar & decided not to weigh into it initially, I now feel compelled to add my views as a non VS but industry employee.
The Scooby vs VSLHR match went to Scooby for creativity but to VSLHR for pragmatism (IMHO).I have followed this thread for some time & looking at the two contestants joining dates felt that the former could be a union plant & the latter a management plant. Well, Scooby advises he/she is not even a union member but the jury is still out on VSLHR, even as to whether his/her base is actually at LHR. He/She trots out some interesting figures so maybe I should just refer to them.
Actually the original figure covering operating profit was culled (by Scooby, I think) from a newspaper report & quoted 46.8Million. That figure does not seem to have been challenged by supporters of either side & much debate has gone on around it. Latterly, however, VSLHR has come up with a "profit" of 3 million, the disparity between it & the former figure being attributed by him/her to the Virgin Nigeria 40 million loss. Well surely Virgin , having only 50% of the shareholding , would only be hit for 50% ,or 20 million, of the loss?
Additionally , was this profit figure of 3million , a nett figure after the deduction of all indirect operating costs , or just a revised operating profit figure? If the latter ,then VS are losing money overall when all figures are taken into account. Perhaps you can clarify, VSLHR? One of your previous posts made it clear that an operating profit was not indicative of the final figure & set out to demonstrate why.Also, I have heard a figure quoted that relates to the profit made by VS on every 100 invested.It has not been quoted on this site but I wonder if VSLHR has it & could divulge it?? (Came from a Marketing & Sales Conference ,I think).If confirmed this would give a return on Investment (ROI) & could be compared to a Building Society ROI (circa 5-6%)
Now ,on to why I think VSLHR has the edge in this argument.
Scooby has come up with a number of suggestions which are well thought out ,not just in money terms ,but in terms of directing that money to obtain maximum advantage not just for CC but also for the management by cutting down sickness & recognising additional effort on the part of the remaining team when it occurs. However, Scooby has no platform from which he/she can advance these proposals. The CC are unhappy with the union, split over a decision to strike & facing a management which have withdrawn any offers & will fight any strike(s)
VSLHR has consistently said, "there is no money" to pay & I believe him/her.
Read back through the threads, dont just grasp the figure of 47million operating profit.Whether or not it is right or wrong, it does not paint the final picture, which must be worse.
Look at what Tom Sawyer(Engineer) said some time ago. The A346 fleet is just about competitive with the B777 given that Airbus are paying subsidies for it not meeting book performance figures. Well, that was before the latest set of restrictions which reduced the maximum zero fuel weight for a heavily loaded nose heavy aircraft (& they all are when full!). The net result is that cargo is often refused because of weight & balance considerations .(& cargo is worth what in terms of overall revenue VSLHR?? maybe 20-23%??).
Earlier I read on this thread that VS owned the A340-300s but leased the remainder. Well ,the first industry A340-300 has been parted for spares after a life of 10 years or so. This is like you trying to sell your car but realising no one wants it so you break it up & sell the bits. The remainder of the fleet can come from an in house lessor or the bigger companies such as ILFC or GECAS.If its in house ,then sometimes you,as the airline, buy from Mr Airbus directly at a discount as you are a good customer, sell back to an in house lessor at maybe nearer book value , then lease back with lease payments based on that value .You pay a higher lease rate but get to bank a lump sum from the transaction.(being the difference between buying from Airbus & selling on to the lessor).Do VS do it? Don't know ,but suspect not.Can you help VSLHR??.
So VS has the largest (leased?) fleet of A346s within aviation ,(I think) & they dont meet book specification. CX are getting rid of their 3 & even Etihad recently came up with a creative way of disposing of one! Not sure of the other carriers plans but there are no new orders for the A346
Then there was mention of the On Time Performance (OTP) with caustic comments quoting figures in the low teens system wide. Well, in the last month or so VS has hit the system wide OTP target of 50% once ,I believe. VSLHR, you can probably confirm?? Christmas Day?? with Boxing Day a near miss?? Oh yes, that cargo being refused travel due A346 performance, contributes to some of the delays.
Your other shareholder wishes to sell, but will probably have to take a book loss to get out (thats an assumption).
Maybe the above puts your problem into context , Scooby. Any strike will be a lose/ lose situation.The company won't pay & they will lose revenue from cancelled or disrupted flights.Any revenue loss will lower the Load Factor ,(VSLHR, do you have an overall system wide breakeven load factor??) but there will only be a very marginal saving on that lost revenue-the odd meal, some drinks , some sundries, but the checkin , loading, boarding,in flight service,cargo, engineering & the flight operation remains unaltered. The deficit comes straight off any profit margin,(if there is one)
So, my sympathies to Scooby & colleagues-I think some of you know this is looking like a lost cause. My congratulations to VSLHR ,but with one request.If you are able, take what you have gleaned from this thread to the (mis)management side & try to get them to recognise the pride & the esteem that most of their cabin crew still hold for their unique company. Surely its worth both sides rapidly getting together in house for informal talks on how to keep those elements at least,whatever the eventual cost?
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 10:27
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Kasual Observer

You now need to let your union know what you think of their actions. The only way out of the current situation I can think of is if a few, sensible, level headed, individuals are prepared to stand up and be counted and call for a mass resignation from the union and to form a company representative council of cabin crew and approach the management with an offer of continued negotiations.

Huyin

If you are able, take what you have gleaned from this thread to the (mis)management side & try to get them to recognise the pride & the esteem that most of their cabin crew still hold for their unique company. Surely its worth both sides rapidly getting together in house for informal talks on how to keep those elements at least,whatever the eventual cost?



Well said KO and Huyin, my sentiments exactly!
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