vs_lhr

"I have to say though, my opinion and the way I voice it on here is very like the oppinion of a vast majority of the crew"

I think you'll find 30% is a minority.

Captb747

Er, should this not have been done before all this mess started.......

vsfsm

vs lhr

If you step out of your office or flight deck to look around this company you'll find that the majority of our crew are extremely ed off. And if you took the time to sit down personaly with the crew to ask them how they feel you will start to realise that it is infact the majority of our crew who feel this way.

Take that 30% you mention and add to it the other 30% who didn't feel confident enought to return the form or who didnt recieve or return a form due to postal issues, now add it to the % of crew who voted no but will not cross a picket line and however you look at it this is formidable.

Come on vs lhr, your bosses will be thinking it. Don't wait for them to tell you to think it.

The ball is in Virgins court.

spacecadet

To everybody who thinks that only 1497 union members expressing their intention to strike isn't enough, you are very wrong.

We are hearing that there are countless training classes being run to get office based staff up to speed & therefore able to undertake flying duties.

A company that has that much leeway to allow staff to leave their ground based duties is clearly in need of re-structuring.

I don't believe Virgin mismanagement thought that the Cabin Crew would vote for strike action!

Armed&Crosschecked

Unbelievable!!! I have sat here over the last few weeks and read the posts mainly open mouthed at some of the comments that have been made pro Strike....
There does seem to be a few individuals who appeared quite militant and may I say gleeful at the prospect of a strike and now must be rubbing their hands at the outcome.
What they also seem to be doing is have an answer for everything!!!!
It may well be that 40% of the union did not return their papers because they didn't know which way to go, it could be that they thought it might never happen and that a vote to strike would not go ahead ( foolish if that's the case, because had they been teetering on a Yes to the Pay deal, we may not be in this position now).
Now we have a very uncertain future and this surely is the end of Virgin as we know it. Virgin is not a big company like BA and does not have the resources to deal with big financial losses that are sure to be incurred with the strike. Sometimes I think we mistake our strong brand image with a huge company (we only have a total flying crew of less than 5000 - BA have easily double that at LHR alone!!!) and think we can ride situations like this out.
Those that have wished for this strike may have shown the company that you mean business, but to what cost?
Passenger perception will have certainly changed and regardless of the conditions you feel you have to put up with, passengers will not be so forgiving.
Dark times are ahead I'm sure, with lots of whispering and furtive looks as to who did vote, who didn't vote; but one thing 's for sure... Virgin will never be the same.

Hand Solo

It's not my company here but people would do well to remember that 96% of BA cabin crew voted for a strike. Far fewer than that believed that they would actually have to go on strike and when the big day loomed the number who voted yes but were actually either going to work or call in sick became quite apparent. In the end they walked away with some nil cost face savers for the union, lots of talk about 'respect' from the management and nothing else. Just because a ballot has returned a yes vote (and to an impartial observer a 70% vote on a 30% return looks like a somewhat weak mandate) doesn't mean that a desirable outcome will result. It's just the first step in a long process.

vsfsm

I think it's important now and I feel compelled to give a massive thankyou to our union reps who inspite of their own feelings on the progress of this situation, have now delivered on what the majority of our members wanted. God knows we didn't think they could.

We are lucky to have union representation at all, and there are still departments who have no representation whatsoever. So we should now get completely behind our reps and hopefully they can now meet with the company and get this mess sorted in the knowledge that they have our full backing.

Remember. The union are only as strong as it's members and now is the time to show how strong we can be regardless of how you voted.

This is primarily a pay issue but we can now get all the other issues out there sorted like :

Crew down
Withheld trip payments
Withheld working up payments
Car park passes
Deteriorating hotel quality
Pensionable elements of pay
Promotion
Rostering issues
The deterioration of the general management of our department

and many many more issues that I'm sure our crew are aware of.

Lets really get tp a point where this a company where people love to work.

vsfsm

ARMEDANDCROSSCHECKED

If BA where being payed in the same way Virgin crew are make no mistake!! They would have walked out the door.


HANDSOLO

The return figures are high in relation to traditional returns of this nature so don't fool yourself into believing that there isn't enough strength here.

The company will only go down the tubes it the company lets it.

Take your company hat off and look at it from a crew perspective for a minute if you can. Then you will see that the company could have and should now deal with the shortfall and let us get on with making this a great place to work where you are rewarded for making the successful company and brand that it is.

vs_lhr

I prefer facts rather than assumption. The numbers don't lie; it's a minority of the cabin crew than forced the strike view. If another 30% are a ed off as you say, they would have voted. They didn't vote, so you can't make any assumptions about how they feel.

Your assertion seems to be that 30% voted yes to strike; 30% wanted to vote yes to strike, and everyone else won't cross a picket line.

How about a scenario where 30% voted yes to strike, and of those a large chunk will be crushed by the company when they realise a strike is really going to happen; they're not going to be paid; there is no further offer and the company has enough staff actually working to ensure minimal disruption. Meanwhile, you no longer have a 4.8% offer and you've lost a lot of money standing around in the snow with a placard while the passengers glare at you for ruining the holiday they've saved up all year for.

Now, my scenario is all conjecture, but as plausible as yours. However, when has anyone let facts get in the way, eh?

thebigcheese

I HAVE SAT QUIETLY READING WITH INTEREST THIS POST FOR SOME TIME NOW AND NOW FULLY CONCUR WITH VS FSM.
I AM A CSS AND HAVE BEEN EMPLOYED BY VIRGIN FOR 7 YEARS NOW AND ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
I BEG ALL PEOPLE WHOM HAVE THE POWER TO UTILISE THIER STRIKE ACTION TO USE IT AND USE IT WISELY AND STAND STRONG ON THE PICKET LINE AND LET OUR EMPLOYERS KNOW WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.
HOW CAN MY OTHER HALF WHO WORKS WITH B.A EARN £7622 MORE THAN ME LAST YEAR ( NOT INCLUDING ALLOWANCES ) AND YET NOT EVEN BE A PURSER AND HAVE ONLY 4.5 YEARS FLYING EXPERIENCE.
NOW PEOPLE MIGHT JUMP DOWN MY THROAT AND TELL ME TO GO WORK FOR B.A.......BUT NO.... WHY GIVE UP 7 YEARS HARD AND DEVOTED WORK FOR NOTHING....SOLIDARITY MY FRIENDS AND ENCOURAGE YOUR COLLEAGUES TO FOLLOW SUIT......

vsfsm

vs lhr

You point out that the 4.8% deal is no longer on the table. A move the company had no choice in taking. That move however will force more crew to take action, a number of people voted no because they believed that if the did they would recieve a pay rise.. this is no longer the case as you point out.

Thankyou Virgin, you are making the choice easier for the ones who weren't so sure.

You must know that the crew are ed off, if you don't then I can only assume that you are from a department not directly connected to the every day running of a flight.

Don't delude yourself any longer. This is no longer the happy family you believe it is. The company operates like any large business but hopes that they can still capture the "we'd do anything for this company" thing. Not anymore

Armed&Crosschecked

vsfsm
"If BA where being payed in the same way Virgin crew are make no mistake!! They would have walked out the door."

And unfortunatley you choose not to, but instead seem intent on bringing this company down to its knees.
Judging by your Tag name, I assume you're an FSM. I wonder how often you put your opinions to the crew on your flights (based on how vociferous you have been on this thread). Must be lovely flying with a manager who's supposed to do what a manager does... encourage, motivate, lead by example....?!!!
As for your belief that there was a "majority" of crew that voted to strike, when you deduct the 40% that didn't vote, that "majority" is very minor indeed!!! (but enough to cause untold damage).
What do you believe will be the future of Virgin now? Do you think after any cuts that have to be made to ride this mess out, that the company will be in any better position to offer more in the future, or was that a risk that you and a minority of others were wiling to take.
It all seems like a game of Russian Roulette to some...

vsfsm

Well armedandcrosschecked

As an FSM who enjoys particulary high performance scores(another issue) in all behaviours, I can only assume that I'm doing the job over and above the standards set by the company.

Pay negotiations are not a feature of my briefings or onboard my flights ,but in my position I am able to get a broad spectrum of feeling throughout my comunity and am fortunately able to express those feelings on forums like this.

Do what some staff with your opinion inc. higher management say. If you don't like it, leave.

Do you really believe that the majority of crew are happy to work as hard as they do, whilst knowing that other crew in other airlines with half the commitment they have are being payed up to 10k per year more.

Be honest now, answer this without your head in virgin land where everything is rosey and everyone thinks we should continue to do whatever it takes for no reward.

vs_lhr

vsfsm,

You really must stop talking for the "majority". State your position and let others make up their own mind.

For the record, I believe crew do deserve a better deal in line with the industry average. However, I don't believe that it can be achieved so quickly and I certainly don't think strikes are the way to achieve it.

As far as I can tell, the company are playing hardball and because it's only 30% voting for the strike, they are probably confident they can get through the industrial action with minimum disruption. So crew are left with no decent offer, out of pocket and achieving nothing. The knock-on effects of the damage caused to the brand because of the strike means less business, and less business means withdrawal of some routes (just like post 9/11), and less routes means redundancies.

All this because a minority of crew were too impatient to take a leaf from the pilots negotiations and do it a step at a time. And I don't think the union are blameless either, as they clearly didn't know what they were asking for, meaning the strike ballot was a car crash just waiting to happen.

thebigcheese

armedandcrosschecked, your technically wrong with your synopsis of fsm duties... ask the c.a.a. fsm sole responsibility is safety and security in the cabin..... this is what the crew are not getting paid the industry average for...any thoughts

Armed&Crosschecked

vsfsm

Firstly, thanks for responding to my thread, even though you evaded the questions posed... lol
Secondly my head is not in Virginland, and everything certainly isn't rosy!
My head is though, securely screwed on my shoulders and I try to stay level headed at all times, looking at both sides of the argument.
Having been in this industry for nearly 15 years now, I have seen many changes to working conditions take place, some good and some not so good.
I agree with you completely that the Virgin payscale is different to that of, say, BA, however as I said before, one cannot compare Virgin to a much larger airline and may I say, one with a much stronger union.
Historically, Cabin crew have always considered themselves to be paid less than they are worth, but there are also many benefits and Virgin has some of the best in the Industry (I know that's not part of the salary, but it is still a benefit).
I agree that in a perfect world, all crew in all relative airlines should receive similar pay packets, but it just doesn't work like that. And as long as there are a queue of wannabe trolley dollies wanting to fly, then massive changes won't take place, they can't or an airline could fold.
That's the stark reality.
As many have said before in previous posts, small steps, a little at a time and one could hopefully reach a common goal... this it seems is a long way off.
Do you honestly believe that Virgin was holding out, like a game of chicken, knowing how detrimental the publicity was going to be and the long term effects that will be felt due to a strike?
brand image is very important to Virgin, its what sets us apart from the rest. Do you think they would take that chance of ruining it if there was a way of avoiding it....?

letmefly!

Just to point out that out of those who voted it was a result of 1497 who voted yes to strike compared to only 605 who voted no, which is a quite a majority of those who voted. It is also totally unknown of the crew's feelings who didnt vote so the whole play on it only being 30% of the crew who wish to strike is not actually true!!

vsfsm

vs lhr

The union had a mandate of no less than RPI and that s what they negotiated. It was then up to us as members to decide if we felt that would bridge the gap enough, the majority of our members still felt that the gap is still too big and needs to be addressed onceandforall. RPI increases for the next 20 years will never bridge the gap we experience.

This union is merely a mouth piece for it's paying membership as all unions are. We need them to help us get to where we need to be and this company and all it's staff should appreciate our situation.

I know that it may be a risk to assume we will get there in one swoop, but the company have taken advantage of this over the past 2 negotiations and will continue to take advantage of this in future if we didn't make a stand now. I only hope they are finally going to realise that it can't go on.

vsfsm

Yes, letmefly.

I was considering the same figures and if we are to assume the same % returns for the ballots which didn't make it back then we could very roughly assume another 700 yes votes and around another 300 no votes. That would be, based on the same %es, around

2200 in favour
900 against

Around about a true 70-75% majority. Not to mention the crew who will deside to actually take a stand even though they voted no for one reason or another.

Loosely based ofcourse, but you get the drift.

Localiser Green

Only three flights to be cancelled on each strike day, not bad.

From VS website: