The Virgin Strike Thread (Merged)
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vsgla
There have been no insults - no really, I checked back. There have been (polite and patient) posts by people who take a different view of the situation to you, but no insults.
In fact, vsgla - the only source of friction on this thread to date is you: So far you've compared your managers with Nazis, complained about your fellow Cabin Crew and attacked your Pilots. You have made reasonably serious accusations against all these, and offered no factual evidence whatsoever to support your position, beyond your own subjective opinions. You've managed all of that with a writing style that is the written equivalent of throwing petrol on a Hibachi - This ignores the various capital offences committed against spelling, punctuation, grammar and historical facts.
In short vsgla - you're a nuisance, and we're going to take a 24hr break from you on this thread. Use the time to calm down, think a bit and then return minus the venom.
banding about insults
In fact, vsgla - the only source of friction on this thread to date is you: So far you've compared your managers with Nazis, complained about your fellow Cabin Crew and attacked your Pilots. You have made reasonably serious accusations against all these, and offered no factual evidence whatsoever to support your position, beyond your own subjective opinions. You've managed all of that with a writing style that is the written equivalent of throwing petrol on a Hibachi - This ignores the various capital offences committed against spelling, punctuation, grammar and historical facts.
In short vsgla - you're a nuisance, and we're going to take a 24hr break from you on this thread. Use the time to calm down, think a bit and then return minus the venom.
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Just to point out, the ballott wasn't sent out by Unite it was sent out by an independant body who deal with industrial action ballotts. I found this out by contacting my union reps....
I have friends who live in Spain and Portugal who when they didn't recieve a ballott form organised for the form to be sent to me or other friends in the UK so as to ensure they got the form. I don't believe the pilots would have allowed three weeks to pass without recieveing a ballott but they are more swithched on when it comes to this kind of thing I suppose
I have to agree with VSGLA. It really isn't rocket science
I have friends who live in Spain and Portugal who when they didn't recieve a ballott form organised for the form to be sent to me or other friends in the UK so as to ensure they got the form. I don't believe the pilots would have allowed three weeks to pass without recieveing a ballott but they are more swithched on when it comes to this kind of thing I suppose
I have to agree with VSGLA. It really isn't rocket science
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OK, the way I see it is -lets say- on a 340-600 you could have 310 pax and 15 cabin crew. Less one for the IFBT means 14. 310/14=22.1. So each CCM has 22.1 people to look after on their way to a nice layover in a nice hotel on allowances. Given that most of these 22.1 will be asleep or watching a movie for part of this trip and it may well be a lot lower than 22.1 anyway, I really don’t see the problem. It is a lifestyle job! By which I mean that CC get from the job a lifestyle that they would be very unlikely to enjoy elsewhere. Oh and the IFBT does next to nothing on a night flight as all the pax are asleep. My view is that if the UK based CC are unwilling to work properly for VAA then we should up the quota of “national” crew. Those Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Nigerian ladies are more diligent, helpful and often better company quite frankly.
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10 days ago was the 8th December. Only 5 days after the ballot (only 1 "T") opened and not an unreasonable time to allow for postage to Europe.
If any strike action is organised with the same disarray it's unlikely to have the desired effect.
As has been pointed out many, many, many times before, the increase in pay received by the pilots several years ago was wholly funded by significant efficiencies in working practices together with a 15% increase in hours flown. Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies.
Not rocket science, I agree.
If any strike action is organised with the same disarray it's unlikely to have the desired effect.
As has been pointed out many, many, many times before, the increase in pay received by the pilots several years ago was wholly funded by significant efficiencies in working practices together with a 15% increase in hours flown. Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies.
Not rocket science, I agree.
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Also Shanwick. The deal on the table was a whole lot of lifestyle and efficience changes for less than RPI. If the company had offered a decent value for the changes tabled then maybe that deal would have gone through. As it was they felt we should have increased our monthly stby allocation, reduced the number of crew onboard the A/C and frozen the salary of newly promoted crew for a year amongst other things and all for 2.5% and the company payrise in year 2.
If they had offered us 23% over 3 years then maybe we would have some respect for the management and wouldn't feel like they are taking the
The members rejected that not the union. I assume you would have too if you'd recieved a balloT paper.
Even in the last deal we were still being asked to give up lifestyle changes with an extra month of stby but still for only RPI.
If they had offered us 23% over 3 years then maybe we would have some respect for the management and wouldn't feel like they are taking the
The members rejected that not the union. I assume you would have too if you'd recieved a balloT paper.
Even in the last deal we were still being asked to give up lifestyle changes with an extra month of stby but still for only RPI.
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EXACTLY. The members rejected it not the union. Of course they did thats how it works. We tell them what we want and they try to get it, if they cant get it a ballot goes out and the members decide. Not the union, thats why we pay our dues
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As previously posted:
"Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies." (EFFICIENCIES with an "IES" at the end)
As directed by it's members................. Perhaps it's my pronunciation?
Pronunciation:
"The act or result of producing the sounds of speech, including articulation, stress, and intonation, often with reference to some standard of correctness or acceptability."
"Unite, as directed by it’s members rejected the suggestion of any such efficiencies." (EFFICIENCIES with an "IES" at the end)
As directed by it's members................. Perhaps it's my pronunciation?
Pronunciation:
"The act or result of producing the sounds of speech, including articulation, stress, and intonation, often with reference to some standard of correctness or acceptability."
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vsgla - you are ill informed
vsgla
This is absolute rubbish. Our union briefed us via roadshows, emailed powerpoint dispalys, forum postings and paper correspondance. We knew exactly how our company was performing, both financilally and in comparison to other airlines. We were briefed on many aspects from overheads, the percentage of staff costs to overall oparating costs, labour productivity figures (ATK per $ labour costs), cost per seat km, etc etc.
We were informed what we could expect to achieve, when the union thought they'd achieved what they set out to do, and above all, if it was sustainable, and not detrimental to the company - because unlike the vast majority of cabin crew, pilots join Virgin for a career
As I have stated previously, I believe you should be paid more, but your progress needs to be slower and more progressive.
Our union were a match (and some) for the management negotiating team, because they went in 110% prepared, and with absolute member solidarity.
Your union could also achieve something close to this, if you were better prepared and all sang from the same song sheet.
Of note, prior to the 2 latest deals we struck over the last 6 or so years, our union/company council weren't so organised resulting in a split of the company council members as to whether to recommend a deal or not; needless to say the ballot returned a split vote (akin to yours) and we achieved very little.
Re-group and go back as a "UNITE"d front and get what you deserve, don't rush in and blow it for many years to come.
Oh and tell that pratt Boyd where to go, and find someone your members will have respect for.
The detrimental effect to the company was furthest from your mind as your members focused on what they felt would put you among the best paid pilots in the industry.
We were informed what we could expect to achieve, when the union thought they'd achieved what they set out to do, and above all, if it was sustainable, and not detrimental to the company - because unlike the vast majority of cabin crew, pilots join Virgin for a career
As I have stated previously, I believe you should be paid more, but your progress needs to be slower and more progressive.
Our union were a match (and some) for the management negotiating team, because they went in 110% prepared, and with absolute member solidarity.
Your union could also achieve something close to this, if you were better prepared and all sang from the same song sheet.
Of note, prior to the 2 latest deals we struck over the last 6 or so years, our union/company council weren't so organised resulting in a split of the company council members as to whether to recommend a deal or not; needless to say the ballot returned a split vote (akin to yours) and we achieved very little.
Re-group and go back as a "UNITE"d front and get what you deserve, don't rush in and blow it for many years to come.
Oh and tell that pratt Boyd where to go, and find someone your members will have respect for.
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By shanwick Shanwick 2days to go before the ballot closes and still haven't received a paper. A call to Unite unveiled the fact that many are in the same position and would be unlikely to receive one before the 20th.
Now that's a professional union.
Resignation en-route!
Now that's a professional union.
Resignation en-route!
Posted by Shanwick Shanwick
Further to my post (no pun intended) above.
Contact was made with unite about 10 days ago upon receipt of a letter checking that the ballot (only 1 "t" in ballot) paper had been received. Due to living outside the UK, postage takes a little longer than it would to either Crawley or Glasgow. I imagine the missing ballot is due to the lack of international postage applied to the envelope as is the case with every other piece correspondence received from Unite.
Need I say more?
Further to my post (no pun intended) above.
Contact was made with unite about 10 days ago upon receipt of a letter checking that the ballot (only 1 "t" in ballot) paper had been received. Due to living outside the UK, postage takes a little longer than it would to either Crawley or Glasgow. I imagine the missing ballot is due to the lack of international postage applied to the envelope as is the case with every other piece correspondence received from Unite.
Need I say more?
I may be incorrect but a sample of your past posts seem to indicate this but your posts above imply you are cabin crew waiting for a ballot result, I am a little confused.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...07#post3736307
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...4&postcount=10
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...02&postcount=3
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...48#post1757348
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...48&postcount=9
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...17&postcount=6
Regards
Scooby
Last edited by scoobydooo; 18th Dec 2007 at 18:51.
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Shanwick - I don't imagine people posting comments on this forum are looking for you to correct their grammatical errors, so maybe you would consider leaving your incessant correcting out as it's patronising!
Also, Pilot pay has increased approx 51% over 5 years with a reduction in flying hours, currently 750 hours flown per year. Over and above this triggers day off payments etc. Whilst your pay neg's are indeed seperate and confidential, I would be interested to know quite how you would like an improvement to this? From my viewpoint, you are paid well, work below industry average hours and do not suffer to any great degree as a result of company mis-management (do you ever work crew down?!).
With the above in mind, why don't flight deck keep out of our neg's as they constantly keep telling us that theirs is a seperate issue and maybe consider passing up their upcoming neg's so that more money is left in the "pot" for us... or is that entirely the reason they are so keen to get us to accept what is currently being offered?!
Just my thoughts!
Also, Pilot pay has increased approx 51% over 5 years with a reduction in flying hours, currently 750 hours flown per year. Over and above this triggers day off payments etc. Whilst your pay neg's are indeed seperate and confidential, I would be interested to know quite how you would like an improvement to this? From my viewpoint, you are paid well, work below industry average hours and do not suffer to any great degree as a result of company mis-management (do you ever work crew down?!).
With the above in mind, why don't flight deck keep out of our neg's as they constantly keep telling us that theirs is a seperate issue and maybe consider passing up their upcoming neg's so that more money is left in the "pot" for us... or is that entirely the reason they are so keen to get us to accept what is currently being offered?!
Just my thoughts!
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Thats the difference between our membership and yours. Our union held a road show event at the base and 4 people turned up 
. I think even if we had a union that was as organized as BALPA a large percentage of crew still wouldn't bother. They just don't think they need to get involved and assume that the rest of the membership will do it all for them. Until that changes our union will always have problems and the majority of good strong members will asume the reps can't do a job for them.
How do we move forward from this viscious circle. I sometimes wish I could knock some heads together when I hear some of the things our less senior crew say down route.
If more people listened to what the union are actually saying and not to galley fm and twisted versions of events we would be a lot closer to where we need to be.
. I think even if we had a union that was as organized as BALPA a large percentage of crew still wouldn't bother. They just don't think they need to get involved and assume that the rest of the membership will do it all for them. Until that changes our union will always have problems and the majority of good strong members will asume the reps can't do a job for them.How do we move forward from this viscious circle. I sometimes wish I could knock some heads together when I hear some of the things our less senior crew say down route.
If more people listened to what the union are actually saying and not to galley fm and twisted versions of events we would be a lot closer to where we need to be.
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Scooby,
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.
Jbflyer,
Merely demonstrating the incoherence of the argument. The membership can't be taken seriously while they demonstrate such basic grammatical errors.
There has been no reduction in hours flown. Day Off Payments are not earned over and above this figure.
As a large proportion of the Pilot's pay is linked to profits, they suffer financially due to mis-management of the company.
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.
Jbflyer,
Merely demonstrating the incoherence of the argument. The membership can't be taken seriously while they demonstrate such basic grammatical errors.
There has been no reduction in hours flown. Day Off Payments are not earned over and above this figure.
As a large proportion of the Pilot's pay is linked to profits, they suffer financially due to mis-management of the company.
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As for discussing the pilots review that is due, I would imagine your organised union has already engaged the company in what it is seeking on your behalf's. I also expect Balpa reps have communicated this to you - as has been said you have an efficient union which seeks your input at all stages such that it will move forward representing your collective views and aims.
However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation.
Of course that could all be rubbish, but it is what I would advise my workforce if I was about to start negotiations whilst another department was tittering on the brink of industrial action. Hence I imagine no information about what the pilots are/were seeking will be forthcoming.
Of course the company respects the pilot workforce and will have budgeted accordingly as I expect they have some idea what the minimum is they will accept.
Lets not do the pilots and cabin crew thing, everyone has a different situation and I wish you well in your negotiations.
However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation.
Of course that could all be rubbish, but it is what I would advise my workforce if I was about to start negotiations whilst another department was tittering on the brink of industrial action. Hence I imagine no information about what the pilots are/were seeking will be forthcoming.
Of course the company respects the pilot workforce and will have budgeted accordingly as I expect they have some idea what the minimum is they will accept.
Lets not do the pilots and cabin crew thing, everyone has a different situation and I wish you well in your negotiations.
Last edited by scoobydooo; 18th Dec 2007 at 19:25.
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Scooby,
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.
At no point in my posts on this thread did I mention I, Me, My or We.
But that is what one infers when reading your post, it doesn't state you are talking in the 3rd party either, he, she, they i.e. 2nd hand info.
No offence
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Shanwick - ones grammatical capabilities do not, or at least should not, have any bearing on how ones argument is received. We all have differing educational backgrounds and to dismiss someone's argument purely on this is small minded.
My reference on a reduction to flying hours actually came from a previous post by a pilot.
Yes, your salaries are linked to profits but very prudently lets not forget!
Can we get this thread back onto Cabin Crew Pay and leave pilots to discuss more appropriately in their own forums.
My reference on a reduction to flying hours actually came from a previous post by a pilot.
Yes, your salaries are linked to profits but very prudently lets not forget!
Can we get this thread back onto Cabin Crew Pay and leave pilots to discuss more appropriately in their own forums.
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jbflyer,
Not paying attention to the way you construct an argument (in this case, a post on an internet forum), will lead to a significant percentage of those reading it to dismiss your post regardless of the validity of the content. I'm not saying that's fair, but something to bear in mind if you want to appeal to the largest audience. An analogy would be the unreasonable demands of the typical passenger featured on 'Airline' when they've turned up late for a flight compared to the reasoned tones of an MP debating in parliament. Both may be lying through their back teeth, but the MP tends to be more convincing.
Bad grammar, spelling, or excessive use of TXT SPK (perhaps that's a generational thing), dilute the potential impact of your message. Now you don't have to turn into Wordsworth before clicking the reply button; but a little care and attention (re-reading your posts, using a spell-checker, etc), will not only ensure your point is clear, it'll convey to your audience that you have thought carefully about your words. And in an internet forum, words are all you have.
I'm not trying to patronise, by the way. I think everyone has the right to put across their argument, and everyone should be given a fair hearing. My advice is simply to help you see the importance of clarity. I, personally, failed English at school; but spell checkers are my friend.
Not paying attention to the way you construct an argument (in this case, a post on an internet forum), will lead to a significant percentage of those reading it to dismiss your post regardless of the validity of the content. I'm not saying that's fair, but something to bear in mind if you want to appeal to the largest audience. An analogy would be the unreasonable demands of the typical passenger featured on 'Airline' when they've turned up late for a flight compared to the reasoned tones of an MP debating in parliament. Both may be lying through their back teeth, but the MP tends to be more convincing.
Bad grammar, spelling, or excessive use of TXT SPK (perhaps that's a generational thing), dilute the potential impact of your message. Now you don't have to turn into Wordsworth before clicking the reply button; but a little care and attention (re-reading your posts, using a spell-checker, etc), will not only ensure your point is clear, it'll convey to your audience that you have thought carefully about your words. And in an internet forum, words are all you have.
I'm not trying to patronise, by the way. I think everyone has the right to put across their argument, and everyone should be given a fair hearing. My advice is simply to help you see the importance of clarity. I, personally, failed English at school; but spell checkers are my friend.
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vs_lhr
Sweetly put and absolutely accurate - tempting to make it a forum sticky for everybody - but then those who don't get the point of your post tend not to read the forum FAQ either.
Sweetly put and absolutely accurate - tempting to make it a forum sticky for everybody - but then those who don't get the point of your post tend not to read the forum FAQ either.
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Speculation
Scoobydoo
I have to bring you up on a couple of points that you made, and I quote:
"As for discussing the pilots review that is due, I would imagine your organised union has already engaged the company in what it is seeking on your behalf's. I also expect Balpa reps have communicated this to you - as has been said you have an efficient union which seeks your input at all stages such that it will move forward representing your collective views and aims." Not true, it just has not happened
"However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation." Not true again
"Of course that could all be rubbish" More than likely
Well, of the 3 above statements, can anyone see which is the only one which is near the truth? Sadly, it is the 3rd one.
This in my opinion is partly what is at fault with your arguments as a whole cabin crew force.
It's all based on " I heard this", "Bloggs says that". Very little facts, loads of conjecture and gossip.
I have to bring you up on a couple of points that you made, and I quote:
"As for discussing the pilots review that is due, I would imagine your organised union has already engaged the company in what it is seeking on your behalf's. I also expect Balpa reps have communicated this to you - as has been said you have an efficient union which seeks your input at all stages such that it will move forward representing your collective views and aims." Not true, it just has not happened
"However, I would also imagine any such early communications or proposals of what the pilots will be seeing would have drawn reference to the current crew negotiations with perhaps an advisory message that in the pilots best interests it would not be prudent or constructive to discuss your aims for the upcoming negotiations in order to prevent fanning any flames with our current situation." Not true again
"Of course that could all be rubbish" More than likely
Well, of the 3 above statements, can anyone see which is the only one which is near the truth? Sadly, it is the 3rd one.
This in my opinion is partly what is at fault with your arguments as a whole cabin crew force.
It's all based on " I heard this", "Bloggs says that". Very little facts, loads of conjecture and gossip.
Last edited by stansdead; 19th Dec 2007 at 08:19. Reason: point making
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stansdead,
I am genuinely surprised by that. I would of expected your union to have canvassed your collective workforce on what you are seeking in your upcoming paydeal such that your views can be adequately represented. The reason for that expectation, - because you have all told us how well your union communicate with you and this is what they do, Perhaps they just haven't got round to it yet or maybe they don't need to as they have already agreed in principle without your input !!??
My post above was based on what I would of expected from your fantastic union having read how organised it is etc etc, and what I would personally expect to be communicated to a work force about to start negotiations when as mentioned another department is at this crucial point.
Again it was my thoughts and what I would expect, and I made that clear in my last para to ensure no one knew it was me saying IT HAD HAPPENED. hence each para starting "I would imagine", perhpas you could bold those bits too.
You still seem like Mr Angry from angryville though
regardless, good luck in your upcoming talks hope you get what you as a collective want without having to give up lifestyle conditions.
Tomorrows the big day !!
I am genuinely surprised by that. I would of expected your union to have canvassed your collective workforce on what you are seeking in your upcoming paydeal such that your views can be adequately represented. The reason for that expectation, - because you have all told us how well your union communicate with you and this is what they do, Perhaps they just haven't got round to it yet or maybe they don't need to as they have already agreed in principle without your input !!??
My post above was based on what I would of expected from your fantastic union having read how organised it is etc etc, and what I would personally expect to be communicated to a work force about to start negotiations when as mentioned another department is at this crucial point.
Again it was my thoughts and what I would expect, and I made that clear in my last para to ensure no one knew it was me saying IT HAD HAPPENED. hence each para starting "I would imagine", perhpas you could bold those bits too.
You still seem like Mr Angry from angryville though
regardless, good luck in your upcoming talks hope you get what you as a collective want without having to give up lifestyle conditions.Tomorrows the big day !!