Virgin Blue bias against older women
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out of interest a pilot showed me a copy of a gen.dec. from a u.s senior crew going into hong kong number one senior birthday ,1921 and good on her!!!!!!! i wonder if sir dic would employ her? cheers gigs
Paxing All Over The World
Mr Savage said.
I saw this happening in the London financial district in the late 1980s. I was in my early 30s then and peer group department managers who were in their late 20s never hired anyone closer to them in age than two years and NEVER older than themself. On one occasion I hired a technician who was 20 years older than me. He later told me that, when first meeting me and seeing my age relative to his, he assumed that he would not get the job.
Once I was over 40, work in telecommunications (IT) became scarce until I found that any application for contract work was ignored. Had I become less skilled? Had I forgotten everything from the past 20 years? So I left that game. Why did I not sue? Tell me how easy it is for one person to sue ten different companies?
There was an interesting experiment documented recently in the UK. A group of MBA students in London were asked to short list possible candidates from a list of recruits. The post was for a PA to a CEO. This was an exercise and all of the CVs were made up - save for one genuine one who had ALL the qualifications and experience required from the job description. She was not shortlisted and she was in her early 50s. Later, the students were faced by this fact and by the woman herself. Many of them admitted that they thought she would be 'past it' as she was old enough to be their mother.
easternboy [speaking about Richard Branson]:
Well, there is more evidence of age bias! You have made a judgement about a man based on publicity photographs and decided that he is biased in favour of young people and so his younger son must take over. Is that because his son would favour older people? I shall restrain myself from making further personal comment.
If you recall the judgment in this case was that ... assessors were "comparitively young" and identified "with persons of the same age and experience as the assessors" That is the root of the problem that I have seen for over 15 years.
So, easternboy, the problem is NOT some edict sent from on high but the fact that companies give responsibility for hiring to people who are very much younger than folks in similar positions 20 or 30 years ago. These 20 somethings are predisposed to hireing people that they can identify with in their age group. Accordingly, they are exhibiting gender bias for which they have been correctly punished. It is only by brave people taking on companies in this way, that we can teach companies that hiring lots of young people for less money - to hire more young people for less money - is not always in the best interests of the company and its customers.
My sympathies to those who were discriminated against. I have had no opportunity to sue those who have done so and have experiened enromous financial loss as a result. [see above] Thanks for standing up where you could.
Virgin Blue's assessors (or job interviewers) were "comparitively young" and identified "with persons of the same age and experience as the assessors,
Once I was over 40, work in telecommunications (IT) became scarce until I found that any application for contract work was ignored. Had I become less skilled? Had I forgotten everything from the past 20 years? So I left that game. Why did I not sue? Tell me how easy it is for one person to sue ten different companies?
There was an interesting experiment documented recently in the UK. A group of MBA students in London were asked to short list possible candidates from a list of recruits. The post was for a PA to a CEO. This was an exercise and all of the CVs were made up - save for one genuine one who had ALL the qualifications and experience required from the job description. She was not shortlisted and she was in her early 50s. Later, the students were faced by this fact and by the woman herself. Many of them admitted that they thought she would be 'past it' as she was old enough to be their mother.
easternboy [speaking about Richard Branson]:
Maybe its time for his son to take over as the figure head of the Virgin group as he is more the age that projects youth not some old man with bad teeth that are just way to white.
If you recall the judgment in this case was that ... assessors were "comparitively young" and identified "with persons of the same age and experience as the assessors" That is the root of the problem that I have seen for over 15 years.
So, easternboy, the problem is NOT some edict sent from on high but the fact that companies give responsibility for hiring to people who are very much younger than folks in similar positions 20 or 30 years ago. These 20 somethings are predisposed to hireing people that they can identify with in their age group. Accordingly, they are exhibiting gender bias for which they have been correctly punished. It is only by brave people taking on companies in this way, that we can teach companies that hiring lots of young people for less money - to hire more young people for less money - is not always in the best interests of the company and its customers.
My sympathies to those who were discriminated against. I have had no opportunity to sue those who have done so and have experiened enromous financial loss as a result. [see above] Thanks for standing up where you could.
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I believe the 8 ex-ansetters probably weren't all suited for the role at VB. The point is that they have made Virgin realise that yes there are decent over 35 yr olds out there regardless if they are ex AN and that they need to change their recruitment culture. As an ex-An I am fully aware that AN had a lot of crew who were awful, but we also had a lot that were the best in the business!!!! Sadly most of the good ones don't stand a chance while some of the real lazy ones are currently flying. Doesn't make sense. I have a lot of friends who are businessmen who initially thought VB were brilliant, "the chicks are gorgeous" was the theory. Most have gone back to QF. Why??? One comment was" I reckon the old bag with the grumpy face" has more chance of getting me out of this A/C in an emergency than the 20 yr old clone. I guess thats why we have choice. Service or safety.Soon we will have 4 airlines to choose from, only the fittest will survive and maybe VB's more vulnerable than most will admit.
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"Most have gone back to QF. Why??? One comment was" I reckon the old bag with the grumpy face".
This is another stereotype of something. Qantas is not all grumpy and old......again another generalisation based on something that's come from years ago from someone's experience that has been told to someone else and so on and so on and it's just stuck. People need to actually open their eyes next time they fly QF and have a look at the crew and you'll soon find that there are a lot of young happy, crew aswell flying for QF.
I don't know about DJ, but the crew that evacuated the QF70 in Japan last August were certainly not old, infact all were quite young. so the relevance as to who would be able to get you out of an aircraft based on age is completely irrelevent, we all do the same training therfore 'should' all react in the same way.
This is another stereotype of something. Qantas is not all grumpy and old......again another generalisation based on something that's come from years ago from someone's experience that has been told to someone else and so on and so on and it's just stuck. People need to actually open their eyes next time they fly QF and have a look at the crew and you'll soon find that there are a lot of young happy, crew aswell flying for QF.
I don't know about DJ, but the crew that evacuated the QF70 in Japan last August were certainly not old, infact all were quite young. so the relevance as to who would be able to get you out of an aircraft based on age is completely irrelevent, we all do the same training therfore 'should' all react in the same way.
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well said OZcabincrew.
We have all done the same training, I was a long haul Flight Attendant with the Qantas Group and and since moved over to Virgin as have a few others. Most of the Cabin Crew training department is made up of ex Ansett senior Cabin Crew, and our training in Melbourne is conducted at the Qantas Training centre.
Having done EP'S the Qantas way and the Virgin way I found Virgin to be the hardest. U will also find that we have a very mixed range of crew these days in both age eg: several crew members in their 40's and 50's and in nationality eg: asian which is great. I find a lot of DJ crew enjoy flying with older and more experienced crew members.
We have all done the same training, I was a long haul Flight Attendant with the Qantas Group and and since moved over to Virgin as have a few others. Most of the Cabin Crew training department is made up of ex Ansett senior Cabin Crew, and our training in Melbourne is conducted at the Qantas Training centre.
Having done EP'S the Qantas way and the Virgin way I found Virgin to be the hardest. U will also find that we have a very mixed range of crew these days in both age eg: several crew members in their 40's and 50's and in nationality eg: asian which is great. I find a lot of DJ crew enjoy flying with older and more experienced crew members.
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australian boy,
Why did or would you leave Qantas long haul/Australian Airlines to fly for Virgin Blue? were you on fixed term contract or strikebreaker etc?
Qantas has a changing image and now there are a lot of young enthusiastic crew coming online, some a little too young and 'stupid' (first job out of school) if you ask me, but the stereotype of Qantas being old, rude and grumpy is simply that, a stereotype. I worked with a 20yo F/A who was great, hard worker and i also worked with a lady who had been with the company since the 60's and she was one of the most enthusiastic, hard working crew on that trip, so it all varies depending on the individual. People just need to open their eyes a bit more and get their own opinion rather that of someone else.
Why do you think DJ training is harder? don't forget that at DJ, you only had to train on two or so types of aircraft. At Qantas short haul, the F/A's are trained/examined on 7 different types of aircraft, that's a big difference.
Anyway, interested to hear your response.
Oz
Why did or would you leave Qantas long haul/Australian Airlines to fly for Virgin Blue? were you on fixed term contract or strikebreaker etc?
Qantas has a changing image and now there are a lot of young enthusiastic crew coming online, some a little too young and 'stupid' (first job out of school) if you ask me, but the stereotype of Qantas being old, rude and grumpy is simply that, a stereotype. I worked with a 20yo F/A who was great, hard worker and i also worked with a lady who had been with the company since the 60's and she was one of the most enthusiastic, hard working crew on that trip, so it all varies depending on the individual. People just need to open their eyes a bit more and get their own opinion rather that of someone else.
Why do you think DJ training is harder? don't forget that at DJ, you only had to train on two or so types of aircraft. At Qantas short haul, the F/A's are trained/examined on 7 different types of aircraft, that's a big difference.
Anyway, interested to hear your response.
Oz
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From day one, when we get into aviation we are taught that Safety must come first. Would you say that choosing an unexperienced, young CC over a mature, experienced one is "safe"?
Would you say a mother who gives a 2 years old all the candies he wants is a good mother?
I believe that it's immoral for an airline to trick its customers into believing that a nice, young unexperienced CC is what they want. Because if they asked the right question, "would you rather have a mature and experienced person to look after your backside, or a cute, unexperienced one" we all know what the answer would be. But of course that would cost them more, so they sell you junk food with a nice wrapper. Someone from a company with that kind of policy about CC told me recently that their policy was to keep CC an average of 2 years (2 years! You don't even know what an aircraft is after 2 years. You are beginnig to have a clue!), so as to avoid seniority (and the pay rises that go with it) and all the problems given by maternity and sick leaves, and at the same time all the fallouts of the awareness that comes with experience after a while, when you've had the time of seeing all the pros and cons, and realise that maybe the novelty of spending 20 days out of 30 in a s*itty hotel at the end of 35L very quickly wears out, and start demanding more human working conditions and treatment.
So the solution is to overlook the real value of a proper training, that takes time to build, and experience, which is given also by working side to side with more experienced collegues who pass on their knowledge, and make you see only the "funny" side of flight, forget safety!
Would you say a mother who gives a 2 years old all the candies he wants is a good mother?
I believe that it's immoral for an airline to trick its customers into believing that a nice, young unexperienced CC is what they want. Because if they asked the right question, "would you rather have a mature and experienced person to look after your backside, or a cute, unexperienced one" we all know what the answer would be. But of course that would cost them more, so they sell you junk food with a nice wrapper. Someone from a company with that kind of policy about CC told me recently that their policy was to keep CC an average of 2 years (2 years! You don't even know what an aircraft is after 2 years. You are beginnig to have a clue!), so as to avoid seniority (and the pay rises that go with it) and all the problems given by maternity and sick leaves, and at the same time all the fallouts of the awareness that comes with experience after a while, when you've had the time of seeing all the pros and cons, and realise that maybe the novelty of spending 20 days out of 30 in a s*itty hotel at the end of 35L very quickly wears out, and start demanding more human working conditions and treatment.
So the solution is to overlook the real value of a proper training, that takes time to build, and experience, which is given also by working side to side with more experienced collegues who pass on their knowledge, and make you see only the "funny" side of flight, forget safety!
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Ozcabincrew says:
I'm not sure stupidity is reserved solely for the young and just out of school. I've worked with many "experienced" colleagues who have all the common sense of a headless chicken. 
I think its slightly inevitable that with the increase in casuals that you attract younger workers. Seemingly, the instability is easier to absorb when you don't have the committments that you seem to accumulate when you get a few years on you!
I don't necessarily disagree that there is a general perception that Qantas has an older workforce. I also think that there is probably some reasonable grounds to suggest that we may be a bit grumpy and a bit rude. These perceptions don't just appear - it's usually from experience. I do think that the perceptions of Qantas are changing, but it'll be a cold day in hell before we're seen as a fun airline!
Hmm, this isn't the first time I've heard that the DJ EP training is more intense than ours. Maybe there's something in that.....
Qantas has a changing image and now there are a lot of young enthusiastic crew coming online, some a little too young and 'stupid' (first job out of school) if you ask me,
I think its slightly inevitable that with the increase in casuals that you attract younger workers. Seemingly, the instability is easier to absorb when you don't have the committments that you seem to accumulate when you get a few years on you!
but the stereotype of Qantas being old, rude and grumpy is simply that, a stereotype. I worked with a 20yo F/A who was great, hard worker and i also worked with a lady who had been with the company since the 60's and she was one of the most enthusiastic, hard working crew on that trip, so it all varies depending on the individual. People just need to open their eyes a bit more and get their own opinion rather that of someone else.
Why do you think DJ training is harder? don't forget that at DJ, you only had to train on two or so types of aircraft. At Qantas short haul, the F/A's are trained/examined on 7 different types of aircraft, that's a big difference.
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Its impossible to state which age group makes a better f/a
We all know that there are good and bad in both groups, however I must state that "experience" does count.
If you are fit and healthy and have a great attitude towards your fellow flight attendants and pax then age should be no barrier.
We all know that there are good and bad in both groups, however I must state that "experience" does count.
If you are fit and healthy and have a great attitude towards your fellow flight attendants and pax then age should be no barrier.
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So the solution is to overlook the real value of a proper training, that takes time to build, and experience, which is given also by working side to side with more experienced collegues who pass on their knowledge, and make you see only the "funny" side of flight, forget safety!
How many of you have worked with an old Captain who was very experienced but alsoa right old b@stard precisely because s/he "have so much experience and I always do it this way so I must know better"
You have to evaluate each individual on their merits, experience isn't the ONLY criteria to go by; sure it helps but if that experience isn't relevant or the training actually goes contrary to what the new job/company requires, then choosing someone less experienced may be the option, as they haven't been so "imprinted" with previous procedure etc...
Unfortunately the airline recruiting process is inherently "unfair" as the assessors have to make judgements/decisions about people in a very short time.
Too bad for these ladies that on the occasion they applied they were unsuccessful. I am curious to know how many times they tried again, or whether they were rejected just the first time. If so, sounds like someone may have been a bit sensitive, in my opinion... who knows the next time round they may have been just what DJ was looking for at the time.
Just look at Craic, she got the knockback from EK how many times? 5 or more? Yet on her most recent attempt she obviously was what they wanted, so she got in. SImple. A bit of perseverance goes a long way. Perhaps DJ wanted to see if these ladies wanted the job badly enough to keep trying...
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Good question, OZcabincrew
australian boy,
I cant understand why someone would leave QF long haul for VB? It is an odd thing to do. What's your situaion? It's a fair question. Permanent? Fixed contract? Strike breaker?
We all know that ground school is intense and difficult, but what made the ground school for VB more difficult than that of QF long haul?
(Not attacking, just sincerely interested)
Thanks in advance.
I cant understand why someone would leave QF long haul for VB? It is an odd thing to do. What's your situaion? It's a fair question. Permanent? Fixed contract? Strike breaker?
We all know that ground school is intense and difficult, but what made the ground school for VB more difficult than that of QF long haul?
(Not attacking, just sincerely interested)
Thanks in advance.
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Hey guys, I was with Australian Airlines from day 1 and flew with them for 18mths. I only left as at the time there was no staff travel and I did not enjoy living in Cairns and had a relationship in Melbourne. It was a fantastic job and i really miss it. It has taken a while to get used to VB but I am happy doing short haul flying now.cheers Australian BOY
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I honestly don't think there is justifacation that older crew are more experienced in terms of saving pax arses in an emergency. In terms of service and inflight experiences I would think they would obviously have more exposure, however if you are talking about "emergencies" like an evacuation or ditching and such, then most of them have probably never been in one, so how can they be classified as more experienced compared to a younger crew member with less years of flying?
If EP's is anything to go by, then I think it would prove my thoughts correct. Having done re-current training with QF crew in the simulator, especially CSM's and more senior crew, leaves a lot to be desired for! I'm not confident they would be any better than me in such situations. Having said that, this is not my thoughts of all senior QF crew (there are great crew out there too) or that AO is perfect as we have some of the same, I'm sure you all do a wonderful job and are fully competent, though from my first hand experieces with doing an evac with some of them, I really don't see them (more senior crew) as being any better than the rest of us.
Sorry back to the topic......having just done a trip with one of the ladies involved in the case. I have to say she is a great flight attendant. Wonderful upbeat personality and always with a smile on her face. Hard working and would love to fly with her every trip. I would have thought she would have had no problem getting into DJ.
Either way, well done on exposing an unfair process within such a big company.
Cheers,
RaverFlaver
If EP's is anything to go by, then I think it would prove my thoughts correct. Having done re-current training with QF crew in the simulator, especially CSM's and more senior crew, leaves a lot to be desired for! I'm not confident they would be any better than me in such situations. Having said that, this is not my thoughts of all senior QF crew (there are great crew out there too) or that AO is perfect as we have some of the same, I'm sure you all do a wonderful job and are fully competent, though from my first hand experieces with doing an evac with some of them, I really don't see them (more senior crew) as being any better than the rest of us.
Sorry back to the topic......having just done a trip with one of the ladies involved in the case. I have to say she is a great flight attendant. Wonderful upbeat personality and always with a smile on her face. Hard working and would love to fly with her every trip. I would have thought she would have had no problem getting into DJ.
Either way, well done on exposing an unfair process within such a big company.
Cheers,
RaverFlaver
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SkySista
It's not what I have said. My point is that we need all age groups, and that they all take advantage from the mix, and fill eachother's gaps, that in the case of unexperienced people (noticed I never said "young" alone, always "young unexperienced") is the lack of experience.
I didn't point to how the mature profit from the young because that was not the topic: the topic is an unbalanced crew, all in the unexperienced side, and how they can benefit from working with more experienced people .
What happens in QF (of which I know nothing) is not to be made a general case. In my personale experience, Even after years of flying, I'm always happy to learn from those who are more experienced than I am.
it's nonsense to say that just because someone is older and 'experienced' (thus some draw conclusion 'wiser') that they will ALWAYS do a better job than someone who is perhaps younger and newer to the job.
I didn't point to how the mature profit from the young because that was not the topic: the topic is an unbalanced crew, all in the unexperienced side, and how they can benefit from working with more experienced people .
What happens in QF (of which I know nothing) is not to be made a general case. In my personale experience, Even after years of flying, I'm always happy to learn from those who are more experienced than I am.
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hey Capt, my bad, I misread you.
Yes i agree they need to look at how crew can balance out. I guess I was trying to say a similar thing that there is always something new to be learned no matter your age or time in the job. And that quite often someone who has been in the job 'longer' can learn from someone new because that person looks at the job with a fresh set of eyes...
It's good to see you have an open mind toward learning from your colleagues - more of that is needed is what I say!
Yes i agree they need to look at how crew can balance out. I guess I was trying to say a similar thing that there is always something new to be learned no matter your age or time in the job. And that quite often someone who has been in the job 'longer' can learn from someone new because that person looks at the job with a fresh set of eyes...
It's good to see you have an open mind toward learning from your colleagues - more of that is needed is what I say!
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In AF we have "Tutors". Tutors are experienced CC, who are trained (a 1 day course) for "passing on" knowledge and tricks to new recruits mostly, but even people coming back from maternity leave (some maternity leaves can last years, when it's more children in a row) or a long illness.
Tutors don't earn more money than other CC. It's all about the pleasure of being helpful to collegues, and help them avoid the mistakes we made out of lack of experience, and not to waste time tying to find out things we need to know. And not only on the job's technical side. Since AF is a very big company, I realised that it is very useful to explain a little the way it works, which office is where and what they do, where to go if you need a visa/lost your announcement book/need the uniform store/hours of the cafe and restaurant/how to reach the Training Center/telephone number of the on-call CC Manager etc etc.
Lately AF also recruited lots of people coming from other companies, so we had 30, 35 or 45 years old juniors, and they had to be tutored too Of course it didn't start with "T H I S-IS-A-F I R E- E X T I N G U I S H E R " in their case. But they all found having a tutor very useful, since they had to completely change the way they worked, which sometimes can be very tricky since you assume lots of things are done a certain way just because it's the way they were done in your previous mob.
Tutors don't earn more money than other CC. It's all about the pleasure of being helpful to collegues, and help them avoid the mistakes we made out of lack of experience, and not to waste time tying to find out things we need to know. And not only on the job's technical side. Since AF is a very big company, I realised that it is very useful to explain a little the way it works, which office is where and what they do, where to go if you need a visa/lost your announcement book/need the uniform store/hours of the cafe and restaurant/how to reach the Training Center/telephone number of the on-call CC Manager etc etc.
Lately AF also recruited lots of people coming from other companies, so we had 30, 35 or 45 years old juniors, and they had to be tutored too
Of course it didn't start with "T H I S-IS-A-F I R E- E X T I N G U I S H E R " in their case. But they all found having a tutor very useful, since they had to completely change the way they worked, which sometimes can be very tricky since you assume lots of things are done a certain way just because it's the way they were done in your previous mob.
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I was chatting to another crew member whilst checking my internal emails the other day at work. She was reading the email sent to all staff regarding the outcome of the case. She looked at me and said "Funny, I was hired at the exact same time as these girls went through their interviews." She's just celebrated her 41st birthday.
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Well said, Smile!
DJ has many of these ladies ex-AN colleages both flying and in the training department - a great majority of a similar age. Maybe THEY had to try to get into the company more than once like many of us do in the airline industry.
Maybe I should have trotted off to court when QF kept me on hold for a "permanent" position for 15 months only to offer a contract.......
I have heard several crew state, as Australian Boy has mentioned, that DJ training was as/if not more intense than other airlines.
Virgin Blue has, for quite some time, had an extremely wide range of age/experience/race/and both genders within their Cabin Crew - let's all move on from the notion that this is not the case!
Cheers LADIES.....
DJ has many of these ladies ex-AN colleages both flying and in the training department - a great majority of a similar age. Maybe THEY had to try to get into the company more than once like many of us do in the airline industry.
Maybe I should have trotted off to court when QF kept me on hold for a "permanent" position for 15 months only to offer a contract.......
I have heard several crew state, as Australian Boy has mentioned, that DJ training was as/if not more intense than other airlines.
Virgin Blue has, for quite some time, had an extremely wide range of age/experience/race/and both genders within their Cabin Crew - let's all move on from the notion that this is not the case!
Cheers LADIES.....
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well there was obviously something in it for the judge to award these ladies the case. They wouldn't just go and say DJ were in the wrong for nothing? There's no sense to that.
"Maybe I should have trotted off to court when QF kept me on hold for a "permanent" position for 15 months only to offer a contract......."
Re the above comment, were you internal QF staff at the time you applied to be a QF F/A? or did you apply as an external applicant? When did you apply and when did your shortlist expire? Just interested to hear as QF never guarantee that you're on a shortlist for a permanent position, especially for 15 months. Unless you were under some other arrangement? Look forward to your reply.
Oz
"Maybe I should have trotted off to court when QF kept me on hold for a "permanent" position for 15 months only to offer a contract......."
Re the above comment, were you internal QF staff at the time you applied to be a QF F/A? or did you apply as an external applicant? When did you apply and when did your shortlist expire? Just interested to hear as QF never guarantee that you're on a shortlist for a permanent position, especially for 15 months. Unless you were under some other arrangement? Look forward to your reply.
Oz
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DJ is my second airline and I have to say the charm school was quite simple and that EPs are a piece of cake.
I've been with DJ a few years now so maybe they've tightened up the intitial train, but I think there are a few VB crew who would be challenged if we had the assortment of A/C to learn that overseas crew have to learn.
I've been with DJ a few years now so maybe they've tightened up the intitial train, but I think there are a few VB crew who would be challenged if we had the assortment of A/C to learn that overseas crew have to learn.