BA Crew Allowances in Willys Sights?
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Brakesoff, just what I was thinking.
Yes Darkstar it is good to know that there are 2 well trained people to deal with any problems at the pointy end, but when the sh*t hits the fan it's the guys and girls at the back who are ensuring the self loading freight stays safe and gets evacuated properly.
Oh, we also provide a full meal and bar service at any hour of the day or night, look after screaming kids, nervous passengers, elderly ladies who can't walk, recusitate people having heart attacks, deal with drunken idiots and save the pilots a*ses when the captain collapses over the controls (as you may know this happened recently). All this and more when jet lagged and in turbulence.
So yes, the guys/girls at the front do a great job and deserve paying for it, but so do the team at the back.
Yes Darkstar it is good to know that there are 2 well trained people to deal with any problems at the pointy end, but when the sh*t hits the fan it's the guys and girls at the back who are ensuring the self loading freight stays safe and gets evacuated properly.
Oh, we also provide a full meal and bar service at any hour of the day or night, look after screaming kids, nervous passengers, elderly ladies who can't walk, recusitate people having heart attacks, deal with drunken idiots and save the pilots a*ses when the captain collapses over the controls (as you may know this happened recently). All this and more when jet lagged and in turbulence.
So yes, the guys/girls at the front do a great job and deserve paying for it, but so do the team at the back.
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Slightly over stating things there a bit Chewy. I don't recall anyone saving the pilots asses when the Captain collapsed over the controls. I remember an FO saving everyones asses when the Captain collapsed over the controls. When the s*** hits the fan its the two people at the pointy end who keep everybody safe, your job is to make sure the passengers keep their seat belts on and open the doors. BA trying to force in a new meal system won't break the airline, nor will they find people unable or unwilling to work for them. Remember people work for Virgin for much less money and they seem to cope adequately with the staff turnover levels. Bransons shown it can be done, I've no doubt Willie is watching and learning.
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Carnage, assuming you work for BA, try looking at the BA intranet, in particular the section on the lower left which states that 86% of passengers are extremely satisfied with the cabin crew. Cap everyone's pay at the £10k basic and the only crew you'll get are the ones who are desperate and will work for anyone. At the moment, the pay is decent so BA have a lot of applicants so can choose those who have the right personality for the job.
Again, assuming you work for BA, you will have and OOF course rostered to you at some point. I remember a quote from the leadership team member we had talk to us: "cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown". Says it all don't you think?
I seriously think that any attempt to change crew allowances will not be met well by BASSA. BA know it will lead to strikes and another total disaster for the airline. They simply won't risk it.
So, as I said before, the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day. I was on a flight a few weeks ago that was delayed by a few hours. The passengers were fuming and the captains PA made no sense to anyone and just annoyed people. It was the people skills of the cabin crew (no myself I might add, I was positioning) who kept the situation under control.
Before anyone has a go at me for slagging off flight crew, I am not. I am currently trying to get sponsorship to do airline flight training and anyone who reads the private flight forum will notice the posts about my upcoming trip to the USA to fly. I just wish people would acknowledge the hard work and skill of the cabin crew once in a while and stop thinking that all the important stuff happens at the front and we are just there to serve tea.
Again, assuming you work for BA, you will have and OOF course rostered to you at some point. I remember a quote from the leadership team member we had talk to us: "cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown". Says it all don't you think?
I seriously think that any attempt to change crew allowances will not be met well by BASSA. BA know it will lead to strikes and another total disaster for the airline. They simply won't risk it.
So, as I said before, the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day. I was on a flight a few weeks ago that was delayed by a few hours. The passengers were fuming and the captains PA made no sense to anyone and just annoyed people. It was the people skills of the cabin crew (no myself I might add, I was positioning) who kept the situation under control.
Before anyone has a go at me for slagging off flight crew, I am not. I am currently trying to get sponsorship to do airline flight training and anyone who reads the private flight forum will notice the posts about my upcoming trip to the USA to fly. I just wish people would acknowledge the hard work and skill of the cabin crew once in a while and stop thinking that all the important stuff happens at the front and we are just there to serve tea.
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Guys and gals I wouldn't even waste your energy getting emotive on this subject.
Firstly, take a look at how this thread started. By someone called Virginfsm (no offence to you virginfsm) based on a post s/he had read on yet another airline 'forum'. Hardly anything concrete.
Secondly, unlike many other airlines our allowances form part of our Contract of Employment and are worded in a way that just don't allow changes such as those suggested by traveller5.
There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it.
Our contracts cannot be changed without our approval. When a new allowance system that is fair to both the crew and BA are negotiated then maybe we can adopt it.
Firstly, take a look at how this thread started. By someone called Virginfsm (no offence to you virginfsm) based on a post s/he had read on yet another airline 'forum'. Hardly anything concrete.
Secondly, unlike many other airlines our allowances form part of our Contract of Employment and are worded in a way that just don't allow changes such as those suggested by traveller5.
There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it.
Our contracts cannot be changed without our approval. When a new allowance system that is fair to both the crew and BA are negotiated then maybe we can adopt it.
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The main point, as made above, is that a lot of the allowances are simply salary in disguise. God forbid the taxman ever takes a serious, aggressive, look at it - but it has to happen sooner or later.
The bottom line is that crew (be it cabin or flight - I am the latter) have a total ammount of cash they take home. But for cabin crew, because the basic is so low (for more recent arrivals anyway) the allowances are a very significant part of their income.
Most cabin crew are based in the south east - think of the cost of living versus the basic salary. The bean counters would love to take a bite out of allowances - the knock on effects are obvious:-
1.) People will no longer be able to afford to stay as cabin crew as a serious career.
2.) It'll be a 'do it for a year or two for a laugh' and then get a 'proper' job somewhere else.
3.) A small increase in initial training costs as staff retention drops, but...
4.) A long term decrease in employment costs as all the troublesome issues like pay increments and pensions become irrelevant.
In other words its a win/win scenario for management.
The only question is whether CC unions will let them get away with it. I mostly concur with what Chewy says, except the
bit. You surely realise that management will tell you what you want to hear, whilst figuring out how to knife you.
My own OOF day was a steaming pile of excrement, sound bites and platitudes, with the usual, not very subtle 'you lot are costing us to much' message tossed in for good measure - the one constant feature of all recent management briefings, designed to condition us into acceptance of the ongoing assault on T&Cs.
CPB
The bottom line is that crew (be it cabin or flight - I am the latter) have a total ammount of cash they take home. But for cabin crew, because the basic is so low (for more recent arrivals anyway) the allowances are a very significant part of their income.
Most cabin crew are based in the south east - think of the cost of living versus the basic salary. The bean counters would love to take a bite out of allowances - the knock on effects are obvious:-
1.) People will no longer be able to afford to stay as cabin crew as a serious career.
2.) It'll be a 'do it for a year or two for a laugh' and then get a 'proper' job somewhere else.
3.) A small increase in initial training costs as staff retention drops, but...
4.) A long term decrease in employment costs as all the troublesome issues like pay increments and pensions become irrelevant.
In other words its a win/win scenario for management.
The only question is whether CC unions will let them get away with it. I mostly concur with what Chewy says, except the
Again, assuming you work for BA, you will have and OOF course rostered to you at some point. I remember a quote from the leadership team member we had talk to us: "cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown". Says it all don't you think?
My own OOF day was a steaming pile of excrement, sound bites and platitudes, with the usual, not very subtle 'you lot are costing us to much' message tossed in for good measure - the one constant feature of all recent management briefings, designed to condition us into acceptance of the ongoing assault on T&Cs.
CPB
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Chewy - BUT the cabin crew are merely there to serve tea and coffee. You talk about saving the day, doing this and that, but you are only justifying the job! Equally, the flight crew are only paid to get the airline's bus services from A to B and back on time and safely...
I don't doubt BA crews are "jewels", but your OOF course reps will say lovely things about the crews as they are paid to! VS, JAL, Singapore etc all say the same about their crews.
I don't doubt BA crews are "jewels", but your OOF course reps will say lovely things about the crews as they are paid to! VS, JAL, Singapore etc all say the same about their crews.
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Hello Keeperboy!
To quote you
"There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it."
I am joining BA cabin crew soon so I am V interested in whats going on!
See you there at Compass
Cheers
To quote you
"There are many people, some who post on this thread, that would love to see us lose our conditions and try to stir things up. Don't rise to it."
I am joining BA cabin crew soon so I am V interested in whats going on!
See you there at Compass
Cheers
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Chewy I do work for BA. I also fill out the GPMs when I pax anywhere being nice to the crew, even if there were barely above average. I also see the negative GPMs go in the bin.
"cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown"? Perhaps, but the research seems to indicate you're fairly low down the list when it comes to customers priorities. Comfort of seat, ease of check in, service frequency, corporate policy, safety and, for economy pax, price rate far higher in the passengers choice of airline. Service on board is almost incidental. Which annoys the pax more, a lousy meal or no IFE?
"the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day"
If you were serious about flying training then you'd have heard the phrase A superior pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid using his superior skills. We have emergencies once in a blue moon because the guys at the front are continually staying on top of the situation. Potential problems are dealt with before they occur. You'll learn that in flying training. That level of management gives you the luxury of only having routine daily problems to deal with, like handling delayed passengers because you wouldn't come out of the CAT lounge. We just don't feel the need to be honourd in BA news every week just for doing our job.
I'm not suggesting capping peoples pay at £10K (although we'd still be inundated by applicants from bmi and Virgin who earn about the same), but the allowance system will change one way or another without a strike. What proportion of new crew are joining BASSA? How many new crew think the allowance system is daft and dislke the variability? How many new crew are annoyed at losing a three day trip because they're late by one minute, with all the associated allowances, then having to live off the basic pay cos they got standbys instead? How many new contract crew would strike to preserve the fortunes of the old contract crew? They can afford to live on their basic. You can't. I don't think there's the will now that almost 50% of crew are new contract. I don't think Willy will think so either. IFS management is weak, ineffective and has had rings run round it by the BASSA reps. I don't think the new Chief is going to let that situation continue, do you?
"cabin crew are the jewel in BAs crown"? Perhaps, but the research seems to indicate you're fairly low down the list when it comes to customers priorities. Comfort of seat, ease of check in, service frequency, corporate policy, safety and, for economy pax, price rate far higher in the passengers choice of airline. Service on board is almost incidental. Which annoys the pax more, a lousy meal or no IFE?
"the pilots are great at handling the emergency that comes round once in a blue moon, but the crew are equally great at handling the constant problems that occur every day"
If you were serious about flying training then you'd have heard the phrase A superior pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid using his superior skills. We have emergencies once in a blue moon because the guys at the front are continually staying on top of the situation. Potential problems are dealt with before they occur. You'll learn that in flying training. That level of management gives you the luxury of only having routine daily problems to deal with, like handling delayed passengers because you wouldn't come out of the CAT lounge. We just don't feel the need to be honourd in BA news every week just for doing our job.
I'm not suggesting capping peoples pay at £10K (although we'd still be inundated by applicants from bmi and Virgin who earn about the same), but the allowance system will change one way or another without a strike. What proportion of new crew are joining BASSA? How many new crew think the allowance system is daft and dislke the variability? How many new crew are annoyed at losing a three day trip because they're late by one minute, with all the associated allowances, then having to live off the basic pay cos they got standbys instead? How many new contract crew would strike to preserve the fortunes of the old contract crew? They can afford to live on their basic. You can't. I don't think there's the will now that almost 50% of crew are new contract. I don't think Willy will think so either. IFS management is weak, ineffective and has had rings run round it by the BASSA reps. I don't think the new Chief is going to let that situation continue, do you?
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"BUT the cabin crew are merely there to serve tea and coffee. You talk about saving the day, doing this and that, but you are only justifying the job!"
Traveller5 - whatever credibility you had has been shot down in flames with that statement.
If you could compare expenses with all staff within the airline that claim expenses as part of their job you will find there are alot of differences. How do I know? By discussing with those people, ie pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc.
Expenses should be uniform for everyone that needs to claim them, obviously taking into consideration the cost of living in the country concerned.
Traveller5 - whatever credibility you had has been shot down in flames with that statement.
If you could compare expenses with all staff within the airline that claim expenses as part of their job you will find there are alot of differences. How do I know? By discussing with those people, ie pilots, cabin crew, engineers etc.
Expenses should be uniform for everyone that needs to claim them, obviously taking into consideration the cost of living in the country concerned.
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Virginfsm, all the best for your training course and hope to see you around compass!
Carnage, I agree whole heartedly on a number of your points. But a lot of what you talk about is changes to the processes than our allowences. I agree, when I was on shorthaul I used to get so pi**ed off at losing a 3 day trip because I didn't achieve the minumum 1.5 hour break etc etc. And you are right, I don't think many new contract crew would strike to protect the benefits of the 'old contract' crew.
Believe me, I do understand that some First Officers get upset about earning less than some of the Cabin Crew. But in reality, how many of cabin crew does that apply to? Not many.
But what we are talking about here is changes to the allowence system. In a lot of ways the system is unfair. I, as a mainline crew member would be well and truely open to different options of working processes and allowence system. What I would never accept though is being out of pocket. I am happy to be more flexible etc but I do not want to lose out on money. The idea of having meals provided in hotel in lieu of allowences would be laughable. That is something I wouldnt hesitate for a minute to strike over.
I think I am paid fairly for the work I do. Yup, more than Virgin or Bmi, probably not as much as JAL or ANA crew though.
BASSA claims that around 80% of new recruits coming on-line are joining them. And in a lot of ways it is us, the new crew, who are more determined to keep decents terms and conditions than the 'old' crew as it will be us, not them, doing the job in another 10 or 20 years time.
Saying that, I hope to see some changes at BASSA. I do believe that sometimes they are far too much in the business of protecting the benefits of old contract crew while neglecting what crew on the new contract want. This has not suprisingly been influenced by the BASSA reps, who were all on the old contract. Times are changing though, the latest rep to be elected is the first rep we have on 'new contract'.
Carnage, I agree whole heartedly on a number of your points. But a lot of what you talk about is changes to the processes than our allowences. I agree, when I was on shorthaul I used to get so pi**ed off at losing a 3 day trip because I didn't achieve the minumum 1.5 hour break etc etc. And you are right, I don't think many new contract crew would strike to protect the benefits of the 'old contract' crew.
Believe me, I do understand that some First Officers get upset about earning less than some of the Cabin Crew. But in reality, how many of cabin crew does that apply to? Not many.
But what we are talking about here is changes to the allowence system. In a lot of ways the system is unfair. I, as a mainline crew member would be well and truely open to different options of working processes and allowence system. What I would never accept though is being out of pocket. I am happy to be more flexible etc but I do not want to lose out on money. The idea of having meals provided in hotel in lieu of allowences would be laughable. That is something I wouldnt hesitate for a minute to strike over.
I think I am paid fairly for the work I do. Yup, more than Virgin or Bmi, probably not as much as JAL or ANA crew though.
BASSA claims that around 80% of new recruits coming on-line are joining them. And in a lot of ways it is us, the new crew, who are more determined to keep decents terms and conditions than the 'old' crew as it will be us, not them, doing the job in another 10 or 20 years time.
Saying that, I hope to see some changes at BASSA. I do believe that sometimes they are far too much in the business of protecting the benefits of old contract crew while neglecting what crew on the new contract want. This has not suprisingly been influenced by the BASSA reps, who were all on the old contract. Times are changing though, the latest rep to be elected is the first rep we have on 'new contract'.
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Oh my god Keeperboy. yes I had to take a peek, why does this sort of thread never go away? I can tell you why, because a bunch of overpaid trolly pushers are afraid.so,so afraid that the end of B.O.A.C days are near, very VERY VERY near.
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Some of the comments here certainly explain the flight/cabin crew them and us divide.
"cabin crew ARE just there to push a trolley"
This is a pathetic statement made by someone who is ignorant and blinded by jealousy.
"cabin crew ARE just there to push a trolley"
This is a pathetic statement made by someone who is ignorant and blinded by jealousy.
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Guys,
I am starting my training with BA in 3 weeks. I have been reading you posts and I see that you talk alot about BASSA. Is that the union ? How many different unions there are ? Which one is better ?
Thanks
I am starting my training with BA in 3 weeks. I have been reading you posts and I see that you talk alot about BASSA. Is that the union ? How many different unions there are ? Which one is better ?
Thanks
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You sad load of BA bashers make me laugh. You are all so jealous and green with envy that you can't help yourselves. So you didn't make the grade, wake up, get a life, get out of the crap airline or job you're with and stop moaning, make the most of your life instead of letting it pass you by. Yes, BA crew get paid well and maybe they don't work as hard as a lot of you and yes things will probably change but hey, that's life, it's happening in every industry. Can you honestly tell me you would turn down a salary increase or better working conditions if they were offered, no of course you wouldn't so why begrudge others.
What you need to undersatnd is that the crew at BA were recruited and given a contract on a particular salary level and with certain benifits and working conditions. If those are about to change then of course they're going to protest, we all would, you included.
Good luck to all of the BA crew, new and old, I think the next few years will see some changes, at least it'll keep the BASSA and CC89 reps busy!!!! Seriously, all the best to all of you.
P.S No, I don't work for BA, I was crew for many many brilliant years but left a few years ago with a very generous package.
What you need to undersatnd is that the crew at BA were recruited and given a contract on a particular salary level and with certain benifits and working conditions. If those are about to change then of course they're going to protest, we all would, you included.
Good luck to all of the BA crew, new and old, I think the next few years will see some changes, at least it'll keep the BASSA and CC89 reps busy!!!! Seriously, all the best to all of you.
P.S No, I don't work for BA, I was crew for many many brilliant years but left a few years ago with a very generous package.
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Oh darlings! All this bickering is raising my blood pressure...
What can I say? I worked as a gorgeous and very well paid BA 747 trolley dolly for many years and I loved it for the first few. It has to be said that the cabin crew community really do stick together - which is definitely coming across here. BUT I can vividly recall that the mentality among crew was that BA should be grateful to have me, especially being a member of BASSA. One of many examples was a LHR-MIA (a trip BA crews tut and roll their eyes at!) when the passengers had been delayed in the terminal for 2 hours because of a tech problem. 90% of the crew stood in the J class galley on the beautiful 747-200 with their car keys ready saying, "as soon as we go out of hours,I'm stepping off this thing! If BA want me to do it, they can offer us some decent money and I'll want an extra day off!" 50 seconds later we were informed the problem had been fixed and we were going to MIA. Well, the passengers were in for a very pi**ed off crew, especially in M class. "BA is lucky to have me!"
Anyone that's read my other posts will know that I gave the job up because I found it pretty scummy (collecting leftovers/headsets), but there is no offence intended in my opinions. Cabin crew will always stick together and will always want to protect the job, but I remember flying with characters who really had convinced themselves that they did the best job in the world! Some people keep talking about the jealousy factor, but having done the job this is far from true for me....(i've just had to lie down after having a momentary flashback of pushing endless dirty trays into a trolley...).
One vodka later and I'm back. Anyway, I think people need to remember that without all these divine crew members - whatever airline - how would one go on gorgeous holidays? Cheers! (Oh, is it not lunchtime yet...oh well, I've poured it now!)
What can I say? I worked as a gorgeous and very well paid BA 747 trolley dolly for many years and I loved it for the first few. It has to be said that the cabin crew community really do stick together - which is definitely coming across here. BUT I can vividly recall that the mentality among crew was that BA should be grateful to have me, especially being a member of BASSA. One of many examples was a LHR-MIA (a trip BA crews tut and roll their eyes at!) when the passengers had been delayed in the terminal for 2 hours because of a tech problem. 90% of the crew stood in the J class galley on the beautiful 747-200 with their car keys ready saying, "as soon as we go out of hours,I'm stepping off this thing! If BA want me to do it, they can offer us some decent money and I'll want an extra day off!" 50 seconds later we were informed the problem had been fixed and we were going to MIA. Well, the passengers were in for a very pi**ed off crew, especially in M class. "BA is lucky to have me!"
Anyone that's read my other posts will know that I gave the job up because I found it pretty scummy (collecting leftovers/headsets), but there is no offence intended in my opinions. Cabin crew will always stick together and will always want to protect the job, but I remember flying with characters who really had convinced themselves that they did the best job in the world! Some people keep talking about the jealousy factor, but having done the job this is far from true for me....(i've just had to lie down after having a momentary flashback of pushing endless dirty trays into a trolley...).
One vodka later and I'm back. Anyway, I think people need to remember that without all these divine crew members - whatever airline - how would one go on gorgeous holidays? Cheers! (Oh, is it not lunchtime yet...oh well, I've poured it now!)
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There is no need for a FC v CC match here, no one wins and its a pointless exercise. What is important is the actual thread title. We will have to expect WW will take a swipe, whether it be obvious or subtle, at our allowances and sadly michy2 comments about the MIA delay story is all too true. I've been on a much delayed BA207 and seen the CC dismay when the A/c becomes -S- just before FTL's.....
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Can I just say a very big thank you to all the people that have posted negative comments about BA cabin crew.
It has really given me a good laugh and raised my spirits. I can now walk through terminal buildings with my head held up high when I pass other crews knowing that we at BA are the envy of the airline industry.
You sad bunch of wankers. God that felt good.
It has really given me a good laugh and raised my spirits. I can now walk through terminal buildings with my head held up high when I pass other crews knowing that we at BA are the envy of the airline industry.
You sad bunch of wankers. God that felt good.
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Envy of the Airline industry?
About 15 years ago, during those excellent ads and the ' BA theme tune' that used to make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Yes, I wanted to work for the World's favourite then. Couldn't understand anyone who didn't. But now, well how times change. Still good, but perhaps not riding the same high wave as years gone by and begining to blend in with many others. For Pilots at least, just as good if not better career moves available at several UK Airlines now. For the Cabin Crew, almost same story.
Career well developed now, so not bitter nor green with envy. As a shareholder, however, with a significant number of shares I would like to see some of the old restrictive working practices changed. Increase your basic and get rid of needless payments for this, that and the other. Company needs to stay lean to survive in this day and age with the likes of Ryanair / Easy competing on shorthaul.
Am aware,also, that if Company are making record profits, you as staff should benefit,as well as shareholders, which many BA staff are anyway.
You may not be the envy you once were,however, you can still hold your heads high.
Just stop this pilot / Cabin Crew bickering eh?
About 15 years ago, during those excellent ads and the ' BA theme tune' that used to make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Yes, I wanted to work for the World's favourite then. Couldn't understand anyone who didn't. But now, well how times change. Still good, but perhaps not riding the same high wave as years gone by and begining to blend in with many others. For Pilots at least, just as good if not better career moves available at several UK Airlines now. For the Cabin Crew, almost same story.
Career well developed now, so not bitter nor green with envy. As a shareholder, however, with a significant number of shares I would like to see some of the old restrictive working practices changed. Increase your basic and get rid of needless payments for this, that and the other. Company needs to stay lean to survive in this day and age with the likes of Ryanair / Easy competing on shorthaul.
Am aware,also, that if Company are making record profits, you as staff should benefit,as well as shareholders, which many BA staff are anyway.
You may not be the envy you once were,however, you can still hold your heads high.
Just stop this pilot / Cabin Crew bickering eh?