BA Crew Allowances in Willys Sights?

[marlowe]

If you want to know about how the future terms and conditions might look at BA ,look no further than BA Citiexpress this will give you all a clue!!!!

[traveller5]

Keeperboy - I seem to keep having a go (nothing personal) but I must say your comment about SH crew being welcome to TLV and ACC is again naive. The 767 dusked a/c could do a whole array of LH routes......

At the end of the day people do knock BA crews, but the crews are only defensive because they know change is inevitable. The BOAC days are gone. I know for a fact what is on the cards (cannot reveal my source..yet) and the top issues are 1. Crew allowances (hotels are to provide meals which will do away with allowances), 2. CSD role (A321 CSDs being taken off was a trial) and 3. Worldwide crew agreements (disruption policy in particular).

[flyer55]

Lets all wait and see what Willie Walsh will do but one thing is for certain he is going after Waterside and other parts of the operation will be targeted so lets watch this space. Am not suprised that maybe Eurofleet Crew at LHR take over the 767 flying altogether , but the mixed flying will happen.

[cartexchange]

I normally don't get involved in other airline forums but I happen to be going past this one.
Anyway why is it that the low cost start up crew are always having a go at the established ones! I will tell you why, jealousy, and of course they applied for BA and just did not cut the mark! very petty indeed! they sit there and hope that BA conditions fall, this is nonsense, if BA conditions fall the so do the low cost carriers,
to the BA crew I'm with QF long haul, and we have the same problems, except they have taken the knife to us big time! we have these housing commission airline staff attacking us at all angles.

Who knows what willy will do, but if you all stick together he cant do anything.

Always remember they are jealous, they tried to get in, and they never made it, so in their rage and anger they take it out on existing crew,

Keeperboy, love the comments,,

Management love seeing the fighting among us, playing into their hands.

To all BA staff, I hope your conditions get better, as it will only improve mine in the long run.

[Stirling]

I dont understand...

BA crew are, in general and agreed to by a majority of posters on here, very well renumerated for what they do. As has been stated, a large proportion of crews from other airlines would probably jump at the chance to work under the same terms and conditions, and I'm guessing a large proportion would like to work for the company.

What I've never understood is, why all the vitriol towards those at Waterside and Compass? Have those that express this resentment spent any quality time working at either, and seeing how hard certain areas are being pushed? Has anyone recently witnessed the continued lack of investment in ALL areas (staff and systems) at both and the associated affects?

Headcount reductions have happened and will continue to happen at both, alongside workload increasing. This I believe needed to happen, but it has got to 'blood out of a stone' proportions. I am sick and tired of hearing the 'Latte' culture in Waterside levelled at my colleagues. Do we not deserve the occasional break? There are coffee areas at Compass and these are continually filled with crew - I will make it absolutely clear that I have no issues with this, but please stop the hypocrisy.

Some comments on here beggar belief. This company is completely divided and the in-fighting only happens when a lack of appreciation of what other departments contribute is failed to be realised.

I sincerely hope that WW does not erode your terms and conditions, as these have obviously been agreed to for your benefit, and this is what you have agreed to and expected when joining. If, however, these end up in his sights, be prepared to have the courage of your convictions, but dont forget the bigger picture and possible repercussions of your actions.

[keeperboy]

traveller5 you must be very well connected indeed! Especially considering Willie isn't even in charge yet, hasn't been in the airline for five minutes and despite all the other things he has to get a grasp of, he already knows the workings of cabin crew allowences and how he is going to change them. He may be the CEO but he still has the board to answer to as well.

Maybe you can use your connections to answer the following questions for us?

1). Firstly, what does he plan on doing about the small consequence of our contracts? If you read our Industrial Agreement (Allowences) it doesn't mention anything about being provided meals. It says we will be provided with an allowence equivalent to the cost of a meal in the hotel in local currency. So that would be the first hurdle for him. He would need to change our contract (all 13,000 odd of us).

2). The 'meal in hotel' system seems to be based on the scenario that we spend all our duty in a hotel. What about when we are on the aircraft and our meal allowence times are triggered? Are you saying that shorthaul crew operating there-and-backs will get no allowences as they won't have access to a restaurant?

Changes are ineviatable and some will even be welcome. But everything is relative. Crew from loads of other airlines would LOVE to see us fall flat on our face and lose our conditions. BA is not going to adopt CitiExpress conditions overnight, because the operation is totally different and they would have to seek the agreement of the 13,000 cabin crew to change their contracts. But that does not mean that we are not open to negotiation . At the end of the day we all want BA to be a success and to still have our jobs in 10, 20 or 30 years time.

I can remember when I first came to BA from BMI. I thought it was like a holiday camp and would nearly fall over in fits of laughter when the crew that had been there for years would say how much harder BA was working them. They didn't believe me when I would tell them about the days we had at BMI. Since then, things have slowly got a little harder at BA (but i'm still loving it) and I think will continue to slowly get more harder still. But as our days at BA slowly get harder the days at the likes of bmi or virgin or citiexpress will get harder still.

[itsinthebag]

keeperboy - WELL DONE for being one of the few people on here to talk any sense! The pure venom these people spit at BA crew is UNBELIEVEABLY immature. And do I smell...........sour grapes?
If these people want to see us suffer with regard to our terms and conditions, then they obviously want their T&C's slashed - like you said - their days will get harder and harder. Don't bmi have 5 or 6 sector days now?

[sevenforeseven]

Keeperboy, sour grapes not a chance, but what you get for pushing around a trolly cannot and will not continue. I want BA to do well and what I say is fair pay for a fair job, if other attendants like you greedy people continue to demand the type of salaries than that will be the downfall of a great airline then again perhaps you want that.
No matter what your response is, and I shall not even bother looking on this forum again so say what you like, the end of your over the top salary is near, very near.
Goodbye.

[keeperboy]

sevenforeseven, I just know you aren't going to be able to resist a peek to see how this thread is continuing, so I will reply....

You are very right, some of the cabin crew at BA earn a bloody fortune and many of them don't even push the cart anymore for that! I guess because they joined BA when they were essentially a civil servant and their contracts have continued on.

I am on the 'new contract' (post '97). I do earn more than the average trolley dolly, but not loads more. Sort of what I would expect for working for the flag carrier, and the 'worlds most profitable airline'. I guess it is akin to what a crew member for Lufthansa earns versus their collegues at Air Berlin, or Iberia crew earn versus their collegues at Air Europe.

This isn't a situation unique to BA. I'm sure in the banking or insurance industries that there are some companies that pay more and offer better conditions than others.

I like BA. I like the way they treat me and I think they do pay me well. And in return I give back 110%. For the first time ever, I feel I work for an airline that I can actually give some loyalty to. I don't call in sick unless I am sick and whatever my mood on the day I get on the aircraft and give my all to BA's customers. And most of my collegues have that same mentality. Perhaps it is this 'give and take' mentality and the good conditions we enjoy that helped propel BA to the profit levels it has just achieved.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Well said Keeperboy...In the end, these people wish they were at BA, and I'm sure that if they apply and are successful in the future, they too will want the same conditions that we enjoy now...SO GET OVER YOUR JEALOUSY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChewyTheWookie]

sevenforeseven, I think you fail to realise that not all BA crew are on the old contract. I joined a year ago and after tax take home enough to live comfortably (rented flat, average car, 1 holiday a year). Any less and it wouldn't be worth doing the job. Why shouldn't I earn enough to at least enjoy myself occasionally? I'm not saying BA should be giving me enough for several houses and a new Jag every year but I do a full time job and that is what counts.

There is no way BA will get away with providing meals in a hotel and taking away all allowances. That would mean all new contract crew would be on less than £10k. Would you work full time for that?

sevenforeseven, what is your job? It might say in your profile but I haven't looked. Have you noticed how much some of the pilots get paid for simply "sitting in a flight deck". Slightly more than the cabin crew get paid for "pushing a trolley" isn't it...

[DarkStar]

Chewy - I'll reply on behalf of the 'front office' by simply saying if there is an uncontained engine failure or engine fire or severe weather you'd be very grateful that they are 'sitting there'. Most jobs have their mundane moments, yes, cruising hour upon hour can be dull...then again, people often say that when things start going wrong thats when we earn the money. How can you justify an old contract CC member earning more than a P2? Also, it takes years on training and continual checks to attain a CPL, whereas CC can be interviewed virtually off the street and trained in six weeks - just look at the CC forums about recruitment!!!

Keeperboy, I know many of your comments are made with slight tongue in cheek, but I think you'll find 'Traveller 5' is very well connected, so just a word of caution.

There is very little, if any, fat left in Waterside. Compass also has little to offer in the way of easy hits. The days of those 'painless cuts' are gone. It WILL be expenses, like it or not and that applies to me too.

WW has already done the rounds and his network are already deep within, so don't think things aren't already being reported back

[Carnage Matey!]

Now far be it from me to defend our cabin crew (who frankly are paid more than the going rate for less than the average productivity) I feel I have to point out that, despite his claims to be 'well connected', traveller5 does spout a load of tosh on these forums. A quick look at his previous postings reveals lots of questions about subjects that he wouldn't need to ask if he was as well connected as he claims. The idea that hotels will provide meals to crew is truly comical and could only be floated by someone who has no idea of crew schedules, slip durations or service levels at the hotels BA chooses for its crews.

[traveller5]

Carnage Matey - what is it you would like me to say?? What has a crew 24hr slip in MIA, 48hr slip in NRT or 24hr stop in SYD/MEL got to do with hotels providing "all inclusive" meals for crews? These hotels already provide 24hr room service - which, I might add, a large % of crews already take full advantage of at all hours! Furthermore, a good % of the network's hotels also provide a significant discount for meals taken by crews, which flight and cabin crews are quick to ask for!

The proposed system (whether you accept it is being considered or not is a matter for yourself) would look to enhance such discounts by BA paying for breakfast, lunch and dinner for each crew member for the duration of the slip. Whether the crew member decides to use their "allowance" is a matter of personal choice, but the "B", "L" and "D" would be eliminated from your allowance slips as it has been provided!
Now, IF a meal is triggered outside the hotel, the proposal is to provide the meal on board. Again, whether you choose not to eat what has been provided is up to you.
A grey area is what constitutes or how large/small a "breakfast", "lunch" or "dinner" should be, but you can expect generous helpings whatever your appetite!


As for the service levels at each hotel, the majority would be able to provide the proposed service and on certain slips the crews don't even leave the hotel! In some ways the new system would help crews as the current unfair system is based on menu prices...

All in all, the new crew card is the beginning of discreet crew cost reductions, believe me.

[maxy101]

At the risk of firing from the hip here, Iberia and Singapore Airlines pay for hotel meals as part of the hotel contract. I can foresee a scenario where this could be pushed through, probably with a change to an hourly rate perhaps? Without reading the Employment Guide , I don't know exactly how the meal/allowance agreement is written, but for instance, nobody is entitled to claim allowances when at main base, or where there is a BA canteen.

[traveller5]

maxy101 - you're right about main base, but you've highlighted another area in that if a service arrives late the missed meals would have to be paid, but this would still equate to huge savings. BA crews are notorious for asking the flight crews to slow down after landing when they are near to the trigger point of another meal. However, the new proposal includes ideas for disallowing trigger times to dictate what is paid, especially as a delayed longhaul service can trigger between £30 - £70/hr per person in cabin crew overtime, depending on sector length!

At the end of the day, it has been established that inflight triggered meal allowances do not serve any particular purpose as crews do not starve when on board, the contrary! The current system, most importantly on longhaul, means crews are being paid meal allowances while in flight, as well as downroute, but the crews have sufficient access to food on board! The inflight triggered meal allowances are therefore redundant and it would cost pennies to provide 15 cabin crew and 3 flight crew world traveller trays for flight meals against what is currentl paid. (although BA flight crews are now on a different hourly rate system...another story).

[Carnage Matey!]

Unfortunately your system doesn't work quite so well on short haul though, does it? Its all well and good to say everyone will eat on board, but the nutritional quality of the food will mean everyone is both sick and hungry after four days. BA have recently refused to pay the crew caterer in protest at the low standard of the food, which I think speaks volumes about how much it has deteriorated. Providing World Traveller trays won't work either. Firstly safety dictates that there should be reasonable variety in the food so that the whole crew don't get poisoned at once. Secondly there is the issue of serving the same WT meal everytime people go to work. They don't change the menus very often you know.

Also, the idea that most hotels provide 24 hour room service is somewhat optimstic. Fine if you want to eat nothing other than pizza, burger or microwave pasta all year, because thats all thats usually on the room service menu (and don't forget the hefty delivery charge). If the company aren't going to pay the premium for that service then are you seriously suggesting the cabin crew would agree to being forced into eating at the hotel restaurant at a time of the hotels choosing? It simply isn't practical. We have 100+ crew at many hotels on any given night. Do you think the hotel restaurant could cope when they all turn up over a 1 hour interval to eat?

There are some good ideas in your post, particularly about removing trigger times, but the plan to include all meals downroute in the hotel contract is simply unworkable.

[keeperboy]

Let's not get too off the track here.....

Traveller5's suggestion would be fantastic for BA management and i'm sure it isn't something that hasn't already be considered before.

But why do you think it hasn't already been implemented in the past??? I mean you don't really have to be that sly to think of the meal-in-hotel scenario.

The reason it hasn't been introduced in the past is because of the stumbling block that BA management will continue to have. That we have a contract that includes the wording of our allowence structure.

And I repeat, it DOESN'T include anything along the lines of "you will be paid an allowence OR provided with meals etc etc".

I actually went into the BASSA office yesterday and was shown in black and white the wording of our allowence agreement, of our BINDING contract that BA has signed up to. And it reads:

"....mainline cabin crews will be paid an allowence in appropriate currency at negotiated trigger times an amount equal or greater than a three course meal in an approved hotel restaurant. This does not affect the provision of in-flight crew meals".

I don't doubt that the meal-in-hotel system HAS been looked at but there is no way in can be introduced without the changing of contracts of 13,000 mainline cabin crew.

[ChewyTheWookie]

The thing is meal allowances are basically our salary in disguise. What you lot seem to fail to understand is that without meal allowances the cabin crew would take home around £10k. When we are downroute we don't spend our entire meal allowance, if we did we'd have no money in our pockets back home. Meal allowances are not simply to pay for meals. Without them NO ONE on the new contract could afford to work for BA.

There is no way there will be any change in the way things are done. Meal allowances are here to stay and if BA try to force a new system they will be left with no airline at all.

I agree there are a lot of expensive old contract crew out there who get paid a massive salary, but there are also a lot of post-1997 crew who do not. Anyone who joined after 1997 takes home a little above the average salary for cabin crew.

[BrakesOff]

Darkstar exactly what do you think a cabin crew member should earn? It would be interesting to hear what value (if any) you place on the role of cabin crew?