Eastern Australia Airlines
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Hi all..when the last eba was voted down,did everyone get a letter from the PHANTOM (Sunnies boss) posted to thier home address stating that if the eba wasn't voted up the 2nd time that progression would be taken away by eaa...after giving his "word" at meetings with crew that this would not happen.I got an email from the faaa 2day saying that 31 mams were made permanent in perth..a few xAN friends of mine got the job & commute back to melb.There might be an announcement in nov but do not hold your breath with this so called transparent management...a manager that should support her f/as or has she forgotten where SHE came from..what is the faaa doing about all the changes & her interpretations??? Probably NOTHING as they are too SCARED to go up against her.
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Hey!
That's correct, 32 MAM casuals were made permanent QF F/A's as of July this year. Would you guys transfer to Perth if it is offered with career progression this time around? all career progression guys always seem to end up in Perth?
Oz
That's correct, 32 MAM casuals were made permanent QF F/A's as of July this year. Would you guys transfer to Perth if it is offered with career progression this time around? all career progression guys always seem to end up in Perth?
Oz
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blondeontour
Are you referring to the Eastern or Sunstate EBA?
Either way that information is wrong. Firstly no manager would ever send such a letter to crew on company letterhead and put their name to it. Secondly the Career Progression Agreement is between Qantas and the FAAA.
The following is from a newsletter on the faaa website www.faaadomestic.org.au dated 18/6/03
" It is not true that either Eastern or Qantas have in any way suggested that Career Progression will be withdrawn. However, Management has advised that the new Agreement providing extra Career Progression positions, will not be signed until an EBA has been satisfactorily resolved."
If you are referring to the Eastern EBA, there was never any question that progression would be taken away but the increase in numbers which were agreed to prior to the EBA would not be signed off by Qantas until the EBA was voted up. A bit of industrial blackmail as I call it.
I think you will find the actual number was 32 MAM casuals were converted to permanent as noted by ozcabincrew as well this was confirmed in a newsletter to short haul crew from the FAAA dated 19 May 2005. Furthermore a newsletter was issued to Eastern crew on 10 June 2005 in regard to progression and part of this is as follows:
The Association has been contacted by several flight attendants enquiring into career progression and when it will take place.
"As members are most likely aware, the Association wrote to Qantas Short Haul flight attendants in a newsletter regarding their full time establishment, in particular, to advise of meetings that had been held with Qantas and arrangements that are to be put in place to address this issue. Amongst these arrangements, a commitment was given by Qantas to move some MAM flight attendants to full time positions in July this year, which in turn will trigger movement of career progression."
For your reference the FAAA has raised the issue of career progression in meetings with Qantas. Qantas will give start dates when it suits them, but lets hope they take a few more people from each airline considering progression last occured over a year ago and we cant hope for it to occur for another year after this group go whenever that will be.
There maybe movement in November when the short haulers go over to long haul but who knows, not even Qantas I would imagine. I am hoping the cabin crew manager for Eastern and Sunstate does not get involved in holding up the start dates and tries to use this as an incentive/black mail to get the Eastern EBA voted up but we can only wait and see. To date whenever crew raise this issue with her she is fully supportive and communicates to us that she is aware of how important this issue is to crew. So for now I am taking her word for it.
As for forgetting where she came from - the same could be said for many managers within the Qantas group that change careers from flight attendants to managers. I am not defending her, however everyone has the right to change career paths for whatever reason and it just so happens that our Manager is an ex FAAA President. You cannot seriously expect her as a cabin crew manager to put on her FAAA hat and deal with situations as she would have while representing cabin crew. She is accountable to Eastern and Qantas management, they pay her salary and she has KPI's to meet, she is not there to make us happy but to meet budgets and contribute to the profit of the airline just like every other manager.
You are wrong, wrong and wrong about the FAAA. Just take a quick look at the FAAA website and you will see the many newsletters written by DM in regard to the very issues you mention. The FAAA workload in regard to Eastern has increased dramtically and this can be evidenced by the level of communication between the association and Eastern crew. Progression will always be our number 1 issue because we live on the poverty line but now we have all these other issues to deal with and I personally feel the FAAA has been on top of any ugly issue that raises its head and its uncalled for, for you to say they are doing nothing.
I certainly hope you are not an Eastern flight attendant because if you are you dont check your mail box very often as the newsletters are distributed in a timely manner now and they are also e-mailed and they also available via the website.
Some time ago the FAAA challeged the company on interpretations in the commission. We won some and lost some. As for the changes implemented by the new cabin crew manager. Sadly nearly 99% are legal and within the bounds of the EBA. Just what would you like the FAAA to do about this? Sure we hate working 152 hours a month, get drafted all the time, receive SMS's at 4.00am on days off and receive calls during your rest, work on the 300 series on your own (casa approved). But this is all legal.
I suggest you become better informed before making such statements in the future. Or better still take it up with the FAAA. DM will be more than happy to clarify the FAAA positions, without her support things could have been a whole lot worse.
Ozcabincrew
Impulse/Jetstar progression has always ended up in Perth but only 4 Eastern flight attendants have ever gone to Perth and that was in April 2004 a further 15 crew progressed in July 2004 and they all went to Sydney or Melbourne.
But to answer your question we now have to state which bases you would like being Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane or Perth or All Bases. Quite a lot of crew have selected all bases meaning if Perth is the only base available there are more than enough prepared to go.
Are you referring to the Eastern or Sunstate EBA?
Either way that information is wrong. Firstly no manager would ever send such a letter to crew on company letterhead and put their name to it. Secondly the Career Progression Agreement is between Qantas and the FAAA.
The following is from a newsletter on the faaa website www.faaadomestic.org.au dated 18/6/03
" It is not true that either Eastern or Qantas have in any way suggested that Career Progression will be withdrawn. However, Management has advised that the new Agreement providing extra Career Progression positions, will not be signed until an EBA has been satisfactorily resolved."
If you are referring to the Eastern EBA, there was never any question that progression would be taken away but the increase in numbers which were agreed to prior to the EBA would not be signed off by Qantas until the EBA was voted up. A bit of industrial blackmail as I call it.
I think you will find the actual number was 32 MAM casuals were converted to permanent as noted by ozcabincrew as well this was confirmed in a newsletter to short haul crew from the FAAA dated 19 May 2005. Furthermore a newsletter was issued to Eastern crew on 10 June 2005 in regard to progression and part of this is as follows:
The Association has been contacted by several flight attendants enquiring into career progression and when it will take place.
"As members are most likely aware, the Association wrote to Qantas Short Haul flight attendants in a newsletter regarding their full time establishment, in particular, to advise of meetings that had been held with Qantas and arrangements that are to be put in place to address this issue. Amongst these arrangements, a commitment was given by Qantas to move some MAM flight attendants to full time positions in July this year, which in turn will trigger movement of career progression."
For your reference the FAAA has raised the issue of career progression in meetings with Qantas. Qantas will give start dates when it suits them, but lets hope they take a few more people from each airline considering progression last occured over a year ago and we cant hope for it to occur for another year after this group go whenever that will be.
There maybe movement in November when the short haulers go over to long haul but who knows, not even Qantas I would imagine. I am hoping the cabin crew manager for Eastern and Sunstate does not get involved in holding up the start dates and tries to use this as an incentive/black mail to get the Eastern EBA voted up but we can only wait and see. To date whenever crew raise this issue with her she is fully supportive and communicates to us that she is aware of how important this issue is to crew. So for now I am taking her word for it.
As for forgetting where she came from - the same could be said for many managers within the Qantas group that change careers from flight attendants to managers. I am not defending her, however everyone has the right to change career paths for whatever reason and it just so happens that our Manager is an ex FAAA President. You cannot seriously expect her as a cabin crew manager to put on her FAAA hat and deal with situations as she would have while representing cabin crew. She is accountable to Eastern and Qantas management, they pay her salary and she has KPI's to meet, she is not there to make us happy but to meet budgets and contribute to the profit of the airline just like every other manager.
You are wrong, wrong and wrong about the FAAA. Just take a quick look at the FAAA website and you will see the many newsletters written by DM in regard to the very issues you mention. The FAAA workload in regard to Eastern has increased dramtically and this can be evidenced by the level of communication between the association and Eastern crew. Progression will always be our number 1 issue because we live on the poverty line but now we have all these other issues to deal with and I personally feel the FAAA has been on top of any ugly issue that raises its head and its uncalled for, for you to say they are doing nothing.
I certainly hope you are not an Eastern flight attendant because if you are you dont check your mail box very often as the newsletters are distributed in a timely manner now and they are also e-mailed and they also available via the website.
Some time ago the FAAA challeged the company on interpretations in the commission. We won some and lost some. As for the changes implemented by the new cabin crew manager. Sadly nearly 99% are legal and within the bounds of the EBA. Just what would you like the FAAA to do about this? Sure we hate working 152 hours a month, get drafted all the time, receive SMS's at 4.00am on days off and receive calls during your rest, work on the 300 series on your own (casa approved). But this is all legal.
I suggest you become better informed before making such statements in the future. Or better still take it up with the FAAA. DM will be more than happy to clarify the FAAA positions, without her support things could have been a whole lot worse.
Ozcabincrew
Impulse/Jetstar progression has always ended up in Perth but only 4 Eastern flight attendants have ever gone to Perth and that was in April 2004 a further 15 crew progressed in July 2004 and they all went to Sydney or Melbourne.
But to answer your question we now have to state which bases you would like being Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane or Perth or All Bases. Quite a lot of crew have selected all bases meaning if Perth is the only base available there are more than enough prepared to go.
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Easternboy, you should be a union rep. Excellent post with factual information and the evidence via the newsletters etc to back up your statements.
Lets hope the FAAA are in there working for you guys to get progression sorted out. Extra numbers may not be out of the question, look what the FAAA pulled off last year with no external permanent recruitment so anythings possible.
Lets hope the FAAA are in there working for you guys to get progression sorted out. Extra numbers may not be out of the question, look what the FAAA pulled off last year with no external permanent recruitment so anythings possible.
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Thanks Galleyhag for the comments.
Easternboy...I do work for EAA.I do check my newsletters...I'm fed up with all the bitching that goes on & the amount of abuse that we get working as the REGIONAL airlines "face" (abuse as in working 152 or more hours a month..pressure to work on days off..300 flying & dispensations left right & centre ..does the faaa keep a record & reason why they seem to give them out willy nilly now that we have NG as manager..it didn't happen until she came along...she might be there as a qf manager but is there any MORALE in the crew room??? I don't think it has been there since LT went on mat leave.
Easternboy...I do work for EAA.I do check my newsletters...I'm fed up with all the bitching that goes on & the amount of abuse that we get working as the REGIONAL airlines "face" (abuse as in working 152 or more hours a month..pressure to work on days off..300 flying & dispensations left right & centre ..does the faaa keep a record & reason why they seem to give them out willy nilly now that we have NG as manager..it didn't happen until she came along...she might be there as a qf manager but is there any MORALE in the crew room??? I don't think it has been there since LT went on mat leave.
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Well there is not a lot anyone can do about the bitching, it happens in every airline and its just a fact of life im afraid.
I agree, we are abused and treated like slaves compared with other airlines within the group. However, we all knew when we started with Eastern that we could be worked to 152 Hours it was in our letter of offer.
Furthermore its disgusting that we have to work our days off just to put food in our mouths and even if you wanted a lazy day laying around you receive constant sms messages and phone calls from crewing this is now bordering on harassement, as defined in the Eastern Standards of Conduct Book.
300 Flying is CASA approved and Sunstate has had this approval for quite some time. We should think ourselves lucky as Sunstate crew can be rostered 300 flying alone under their CASA approval whereas this is not the case with Eastern yet. The FAAA can do little about this issue apart from work with CASA and the company to find a solution.
Dispensations are not granted left, right and centre. Maybe they were some months ago but I am sure this is not the case now especially after the 15 or so point notice issued the crewing by the cabin crew manager in regard to better utilisation of crew to reduce the cost of calling in crew on days off. If at any time a dispensation has been granted you or any crew member effected should be given the name of the FAAA rep who approved it and you have the right to call that person to confirm the dispensation has been granted. Dispensations were one of the points to be covered before calling day off crew so I highly doubt dispensations are being granted at present with the high volume of day off crew working. Of course the FAAA keep a record of dispensation along with drafting levels and when crew advise the level of solo 300 flying, what they can do or achieve with this information is a question which can only be answered by the FAAA.
True before NG came along these things were not happening, however her role is not to boost morale. Her role like every manager within the Qantas group is to increase productivity, reduce cost, meet KPI's and the list goes on. The morale is at an all time low and I agree LT was a great people manager and the best Eastern has ever had in my day anyway.
Things are not going to get any better and by the time the EBA comes rolling around things should start to get very interesting for our management team.
I agree, we are abused and treated like slaves compared with other airlines within the group. However, we all knew when we started with Eastern that we could be worked to 152 Hours it was in our letter of offer.
Furthermore its disgusting that we have to work our days off just to put food in our mouths and even if you wanted a lazy day laying around you receive constant sms messages and phone calls from crewing this is now bordering on harassement, as defined in the Eastern Standards of Conduct Book.
300 Flying is CASA approved and Sunstate has had this approval for quite some time. We should think ourselves lucky as Sunstate crew can be rostered 300 flying alone under their CASA approval whereas this is not the case with Eastern yet. The FAAA can do little about this issue apart from work with CASA and the company to find a solution.
Dispensations are not granted left, right and centre. Maybe they were some months ago but I am sure this is not the case now especially after the 15 or so point notice issued the crewing by the cabin crew manager in regard to better utilisation of crew to reduce the cost of calling in crew on days off. If at any time a dispensation has been granted you or any crew member effected should be given the name of the FAAA rep who approved it and you have the right to call that person to confirm the dispensation has been granted. Dispensations were one of the points to be covered before calling day off crew so I highly doubt dispensations are being granted at present with the high volume of day off crew working. Of course the FAAA keep a record of dispensation along with drafting levels and when crew advise the level of solo 300 flying, what they can do or achieve with this information is a question which can only be answered by the FAAA.
True before NG came along these things were not happening, however her role is not to boost morale. Her role like every manager within the Qantas group is to increase productivity, reduce cost, meet KPI's and the list goes on. The morale is at an all time low and I agree LT was a great people manager and the best Eastern has ever had in my day anyway.
Things are not going to get any better and by the time the EBA comes rolling around things should start to get very interesting for our management team.
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Was told today that progression WILL NOT occur until May/June next year and this information has been communicated to the FAAA by MH from Qantas, basically Qantas has no intention of taking progression until they have to under the agreement and if that happens it will be 2 years since the last school in June/July 2004.
Furthermore Qantas are pushing to have crew interviewed before they career progress. This has been banded around before but its surfaced again. I believe your manager has told crew though this will not occur and the FAAA have hit it on the head. But it appears to be back on the table again.
Just passing on the info I have heard but it is from a reliable source.
Furthermore Qantas are pushing to have crew interviewed before they career progress. This has been banded around before but its surfaced again. I believe your manager has told crew though this will not occur and the FAAA have hit it on the head. But it appears to be back on the table again.
Just passing on the info I have heard but it is from a reliable source.
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Thanks GalleyHag
That information was flying around the crew room thick and fast late today and crew are Pi**ed off like I have never seen them before. Crew truely believe this information has been withheld on purpose by QF/Eastern/FAAA for the very reason they dont want to deal with the fallout.
Thats right QF just screw us over again and again, I have had a gut full, if only the FAAA worked as hard on regional progression as they do for MAM crew, employed mind you well after many of the crew sitting on the regional progression list at eastern.
Just another example of how little we are even factored into the equation by QF.
It sh*ts me that people from Southern that were only in ground school are now in short haul, Impulse/Jet* crew are now in short haul even though they joined well after many sitting on the progression list. In fact Impulse wasnt even owed by QF but people sitting on the progression list where already flying for eastern for over a year before Impulse was purchased.
Just like the story peddled by the FAAA saying casuals would be controlled and there would still be a need for regional progression and permanent employment. Yeah right look at the number of permanent short haul flight attendants now on the senority list its just going down and down while casuals keep increasing.
I bet you my last dollar which is all I ever have that casual school after casual school will be put through before regional progression just like it was after the Perth short haul base opened and QF didnt take us for over a year.
As for the interview crap, this stems from people who went to Perth BUT if these people were interviewed prior to taking the position they would have breezed through as one was an EP Instructor/check and trainer/and a host of other roles the other a trainer and a blemish free crew member. So the whole interview system is just bullsh*t as QF wouldnt have given these people a second glance just ushered them through the door.
That information was flying around the crew room thick and fast late today and crew are Pi**ed off like I have never seen them before. Crew truely believe this information has been withheld on purpose by QF/Eastern/FAAA for the very reason they dont want to deal with the fallout.
Thats right QF just screw us over again and again, I have had a gut full, if only the FAAA worked as hard on regional progression as they do for MAM crew, employed mind you well after many of the crew sitting on the regional progression list at eastern.
Just another example of how little we are even factored into the equation by QF.
It sh*ts me that people from Southern that were only in ground school are now in short haul, Impulse/Jet* crew are now in short haul even though they joined well after many sitting on the progression list. In fact Impulse wasnt even owed by QF but people sitting on the progression list where already flying for eastern for over a year before Impulse was purchased.
Just like the story peddled by the FAAA saying casuals would be controlled and there would still be a need for regional progression and permanent employment. Yeah right look at the number of permanent short haul flight attendants now on the senority list its just going down and down while casuals keep increasing.
I bet you my last dollar which is all I ever have that casual school after casual school will be put through before regional progression just like it was after the Perth short haul base opened and QF didnt take us for over a year.
As for the interview crap, this stems from people who went to Perth BUT if these people were interviewed prior to taking the position they would have breezed through as one was an EP Instructor/check and trainer/and a host of other roles the other a trainer and a blemish free crew member. So the whole interview system is just bullsh*t as QF wouldnt have given these people a second glance just ushered them through the door.
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Agree with many of the points you've raised QFRegional...
By way of clarification, however, re:Impulse/Jetstar crews...
During Impulse EBA II negotiations, it was agreed between the parties that 8 crew would go over per career progression transfer under the terms of the Agreement.
This was done to:
a) Bring us into line with other QF Regionals (as we were then); and
b) Provide a career path into the 'parent' carrier from a much smaller carrier.
Like Eastern, we sacrificed some things in order to get it - as with any negotiation.
It wasn't done to undermine the position of any of the other Regional airlines - simply to bring us closer into line with Eastern and Sunstate.
By comparison, because Eastern and Sunstate have had CP a lot longer than Jet*, both airlines have a larger number of positions available compared to Jet*.
Eastern = 15 positions
Sunstate = 12 positions
Jetstar = 8 positions
This whole matter comes down to management bonuses and meeting KPI's. In Qantas' case, they don't want permanent crew - this affects the KPI for permanent crew on the books, and thus affects the bonus.
Fingers crossed that movement occurs sometime soon, against the odds.
By way of clarification, however, re:Impulse/Jetstar crews...
During Impulse EBA II negotiations, it was agreed between the parties that 8 crew would go over per career progression transfer under the terms of the Agreement.
This was done to:
a) Bring us into line with other QF Regionals (as we were then); and
b) Provide a career path into the 'parent' carrier from a much smaller carrier.
Like Eastern, we sacrificed some things in order to get it - as with any negotiation.
It wasn't done to undermine the position of any of the other Regional airlines - simply to bring us closer into line with Eastern and Sunstate.
By comparison, because Eastern and Sunstate have had CP a lot longer than Jet*, both airlines have a larger number of positions available compared to Jet*.
Eastern = 15 positions
Sunstate = 12 positions
Jetstar = 8 positions
This whole matter comes down to management bonuses and meeting KPI's. In Qantas' case, they don't want permanent crew - this affects the KPI for permanent crew on the books, and thus affects the bonus.
Fingers crossed that movement occurs sometime soon, against the odds.
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QFRegional, glad you got that off your chest? Its all very true though. If you look closely at the numbers QF have only employed 32 people externally into the short haul division since March 2003 (thats 16 per year). Qantas were fully aware of this situation when our last EBA was being negotiated but no concessions/changes/suggestions on career progression were or have been fourthcoming due to their changed hiring practices.
Mr Seatback 2 I think the point QFRegional is making is a fair point. There is crew who are in the 5th and 6th year with Eastern now while Jet* and (some junior - ground school junior)Southern crew are enjoying the fruits of short haul right now.
We have always been told Progression has absolutley nothing to do with the EBA and cannot and will not be discussed during an EBA. However this was introduced last time by the company via withholding of the increased numbers (by the way its 20 for Eastern like we are ever going to see the day 20 go in a year) until the EBA was voted up but still told by the FAAA progression has nothing to do with the EBA.
My point being how could Impulse negotiate progression during the EBA. What did you trade off? Is the agreement part of your EBA which can be renegotiated? Can you trade off other conditions now for better access to career progression? As we at eastern can do nothing in terms of progression. Its also interesting to note that Impulse had a seperate agreement to Sunstate and Eastern. We are part of the Regional Progression Agreement whereas Impulse/Jet* does not appear on our agreement even though the amended agreement was signed off well after you guys negotiated your progression numbers.
Something needs to be done about this issue and its only fair to the hard working eastern crew to be given an indication about their future direction one way or another. But as a lot of crew say the company/FAAA/Qantas will never tell us anything because the resignations would be flying in faster than an F1-11.
I do however have faith in the FAAA and their ability. A lot of crew believe they have no interest in this issue and are doing nothing which is not the case. They have nothing to report as yet and all we can do is trust that they will pursue this issue with Qantas. External permanent recruitment is an issue overall with the FAAA I am sure of that and progression is mixed up with all of those discussions so I can see why the process always takes a long time. For now Im putting my faith in the FAAA to represent the member feelings and communicate this to both our management and Qantas and see what outcome can be negotiated.
Mr Seatback 2 I think the point QFRegional is making is a fair point. There is crew who are in the 5th and 6th year with Eastern now while Jet* and (some junior - ground school junior)Southern crew are enjoying the fruits of short haul right now.
We have always been told Progression has absolutley nothing to do with the EBA and cannot and will not be discussed during an EBA. However this was introduced last time by the company via withholding of the increased numbers (by the way its 20 for Eastern like we are ever going to see the day 20 go in a year) until the EBA was voted up but still told by the FAAA progression has nothing to do with the EBA.
My point being how could Impulse negotiate progression during the EBA. What did you trade off? Is the agreement part of your EBA which can be renegotiated? Can you trade off other conditions now for better access to career progression? As we at eastern can do nothing in terms of progression. Its also interesting to note that Impulse had a seperate agreement to Sunstate and Eastern. We are part of the Regional Progression Agreement whereas Impulse/Jet* does not appear on our agreement even though the amended agreement was signed off well after you guys negotiated your progression numbers.
Something needs to be done about this issue and its only fair to the hard working eastern crew to be given an indication about their future direction one way or another. But as a lot of crew say the company/FAAA/Qantas will never tell us anything because the resignations would be flying in faster than an F1-11.
I do however have faith in the FAAA and their ability. A lot of crew believe they have no interest in this issue and are doing nothing which is not the case. They have nothing to report as yet and all we can do is trust that they will pursue this issue with Qantas. External permanent recruitment is an issue overall with the FAAA I am sure of that and progression is mixed up with all of those discussions so I can see why the process always takes a long time. For now Im putting my faith in the FAAA to represent the member feelings and communicate this to both our management and Qantas and see what outcome can be negotiated.
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Same but different easternboy
We were told during our last EBA the same thing..."Oh, Career Progression has nothing do with this agreement", etc...only to be told that the company wanted a particular rest requirement reduced in order to meet schedule requirements.
Until this was met, no CP for us was the general hint!
SO...we developed a standing dispensation for this particular destination, rather than write it up in the EBA. Since then, we've stopped overnighting as a result of Jetstar, and have managed to retain CP in the absence of this trade off.
So while we traded off up to 30 minutes off our rest for CP, at only one of our destinations, we were still told by Qantas..."but this still has nothing do with the Agreement"...yeah...right!
We have a separate progression agreement that mirrors yours, but no one can seem to explain why we couldn't be included in your agreement. I believe it may have something to do with the original agreement dating back to the mid-nineties, and as we weren't a party to that agreement back then, we needed to have our own.
As Eastern, Sunnies and Southern all existed back then, you all came along as part of the QF takeover of Australian, et al. We, on the other hand, came along a few years later as you know - and so, a new agreement was developed for us.
20 for Eastern - yeah...like they'd want to release that many at once! Not that you're not owed it, I know - you guys work real hard for little reward!
The thing I can't understand (well I do, but I don't have to like it!) is why MAM crew got preference over regional crew for the recent round of permanent slots in Perth?
No offence intended to the MAM crew, far from it. And yes, I acknowledge that the extra training is a dis-incentive for the company - but compared to what? The multiple schools of MAM crew they've been churning out? You still start on year 1 salaries and so on...so what's the deal?
Why is it that QF won't willingly honour it's industrial agreements with its' subsidiary airlines, and yet pick up 32 people from a contractor for permanent work? Is it the leave and years of service accruals putting them off? It wouldn't be the pay or benefits - you start at the bottom again, you get B scale bands and your staff travel resets to when you join S/H!
Off to have a bex, and a nice lie down.
We were told during our last EBA the same thing..."Oh, Career Progression has nothing do with this agreement", etc...only to be told that the company wanted a particular rest requirement reduced in order to meet schedule requirements.
Until this was met, no CP for us was the general hint!
SO...we developed a standing dispensation for this particular destination, rather than write it up in the EBA. Since then, we've stopped overnighting as a result of Jetstar, and have managed to retain CP in the absence of this trade off.
So while we traded off up to 30 minutes off our rest for CP, at only one of our destinations, we were still told by Qantas..."but this still has nothing do with the Agreement"...yeah...right!
We have a separate progression agreement that mirrors yours, but no one can seem to explain why we couldn't be included in your agreement. I believe it may have something to do with the original agreement dating back to the mid-nineties, and as we weren't a party to that agreement back then, we needed to have our own.
As Eastern, Sunnies and Southern all existed back then, you all came along as part of the QF takeover of Australian, et al. We, on the other hand, came along a few years later as you know - and so, a new agreement was developed for us.
20 for Eastern - yeah...like they'd want to release that many at once! Not that you're not owed it, I know - you guys work real hard for little reward!
The thing I can't understand (well I do, but I don't have to like it!) is why MAM crew got preference over regional crew for the recent round of permanent slots in Perth?
No offence intended to the MAM crew, far from it. And yes, I acknowledge that the extra training is a dis-incentive for the company - but compared to what? The multiple schools of MAM crew they've been churning out? You still start on year 1 salaries and so on...so what's the deal?
Why is it that QF won't willingly honour it's industrial agreements with its' subsidiary airlines, and yet pick up 32 people from a contractor for permanent work? Is it the leave and years of service accruals putting them off? It wouldn't be the pay or benefits - you start at the bottom again, you get B scale bands and your staff travel resets to when you join S/H!
Off to have a bex, and a nice lie down.
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Mr Seatback 2
Thanks for history on the Impulse/Jet* progression agreement. I just love how they drag out the progression agreement when they want something voted up, pleased to hear we are not the only ones effected. Its a good strategy by Qantas maybe one the FAAA should be adopting with Qantas, most Eastern crew would be happy to trade off some things for better access to progression and when I mean access I dont mean the current arrangement.
Eastern crew work hard and have no problem with that its just not sustainable for 6-8 years and get paid what we get. We were told progression would take x years during our interview and that was the selling point used by Eastern to recruit crew and still is to this day. However the post keeps moving and everyone washes their hands of the situation while externals and the casuals enjoy the positions.
To clarify a few points in regard to our agreement:
1. We are entitled to 20 positions per year. This is ahieved (but never will be) if 32 or more externals are placed into permanent positions between 1 Jan to 30 Jun = 10 progression from Eastern and same for the period 1 Jul to 31 Dec = another 10.
2. MAM's were not given preference as such as the progression agreement states that 32 or more externals in this case it was MAM have to be made permanent before activating progression. Progression is only suppose to happen once externals have been converted to permanent. This being my point on 1 July 2005 this year was the first time it has happened since March 2003. I agree Qantas should look after their own but they dont and the FAAA has to work for everyone therefore pushing for MAM's to be made permanent therefore triggering the progression agreement at the same time.
The things that disappoints me is why didnt the FAAA/Qantas factor in progression and timing when the MAMs were made permanent and possible take more from each airline as a show of good faith and considering the chances of progression happening for at least another year are slim to none. They knew they would have to take progression and they even acknowledged that to the FAAA. It can be delayed for operational reasons but when they start putting through casual ground schools I dont think they have an operational problem. Unless of course a senior executive bonus is now regarded as an operational problem.
3. We dont start at the bottom in terms of base pay but close to it. All true about the staff travel and B Scale bands and I doubt QF would care about our senority and I agree the training costs are nothing, look at the $$ they would have spent in the last year on casual training.
Like you I dont get it.
Thanks for history on the Impulse/Jet* progression agreement. I just love how they drag out the progression agreement when they want something voted up, pleased to hear we are not the only ones effected. Its a good strategy by Qantas maybe one the FAAA should be adopting with Qantas, most Eastern crew would be happy to trade off some things for better access to progression and when I mean access I dont mean the current arrangement.
Eastern crew work hard and have no problem with that its just not sustainable for 6-8 years and get paid what we get. We were told progression would take x years during our interview and that was the selling point used by Eastern to recruit crew and still is to this day. However the post keeps moving and everyone washes their hands of the situation while externals and the casuals enjoy the positions.
To clarify a few points in regard to our agreement:
1. We are entitled to 20 positions per year. This is ahieved (but never will be) if 32 or more externals are placed into permanent positions between 1 Jan to 30 Jun = 10 progression from Eastern and same for the period 1 Jul to 31 Dec = another 10.
2. MAM's were not given preference as such as the progression agreement states that 32 or more externals in this case it was MAM have to be made permanent before activating progression. Progression is only suppose to happen once externals have been converted to permanent. This being my point on 1 July 2005 this year was the first time it has happened since March 2003. I agree Qantas should look after their own but they dont and the FAAA has to work for everyone therefore pushing for MAM's to be made permanent therefore triggering the progression agreement at the same time.
The things that disappoints me is why didnt the FAAA/Qantas factor in progression and timing when the MAMs were made permanent and possible take more from each airline as a show of good faith and considering the chances of progression happening for at least another year are slim to none. They knew they would have to take progression and they even acknowledged that to the FAAA. It can be delayed for operational reasons but when they start putting through casual ground schools I dont think they have an operational problem. Unless of course a senior executive bonus is now regarded as an operational problem.
3. We dont start at the bottom in terms of base pay but close to it. All true about the staff travel and B Scale bands and I doubt QF would care about our senority and I agree the training costs are nothing, look at the $$ they would have spent in the last year on casual training.
Like you I dont get it.
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QFRegional, why all the bitterness over Southern, MAM and Jetstar? This kind of "us against them" attitude just plays into the hands of management because it diverts attention away from focusing our efforts on fighting for better working conditions.
Had you been a Southern flight attendant and Qantas offered you a position in short haul, would you have turned it down in favour of someone more senior than yourself at Eastern or Sunstate? I doubt it. It happened 3 years ago: GET OVER IT!
Had you been a Southern flight attendant and Qantas offered you a position in short haul, would you have turned it down in favour of someone more senior than yourself at Eastern or Sunstate? I doubt it. It happened 3 years ago: GET OVER IT!
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They're holding another recruitment day next Wednesday.
But after reading all this do I bother???
I make $65K a year, and am of course willing to take a massive pay cut because it is my dream to become CC.... but with all this negativity about EAA I am not so sure this is where I should start my career....
Maybe I wait for that once in a decade chance at L/H external recruitment. Last time was in 2000 if I'm not mistaken... Surely some of those grannies in L/H are due to retire soon
Just kidding!!!!
But after reading all this do I bother???
I make $65K a year, and am of course willing to take a massive pay cut because it is my dream to become CC.... but with all this negativity about EAA I am not so sure this is where I should start my career....
Maybe I wait for that once in a decade chance at L/H external recruitment. Last time was in 2000 if I'm not mistaken... Surely some of those grannies in L/H are due to retire soon
Just kidding!!!!
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I just want to fly -
Every airline staff member is somewhat bitter towards their employee - morale at Qantas Long & SHort Haul is low, DJ morale is low, JQ morale is low... it is just the nature of the industry that the grass is always greener on the other side and people feel that their company isn't giving them "enough".
From what I've seen,morale at eastern is somewhat better then other airlines in the country.
Having said that though, what do you actually want to be a flight attendant for and what sort of flying do you desire? If you want to be long haul flight attendant to "see the world" (and spend weeks a year sick, always be tired and never see your family) then being a regional flight attendant is not going to be terribly rewarding for you after a few months.
Regional flying offers a number of advantages over long and short haul work - overnights are usually not more then 5-6 a month meaning you see a whole lot more of your family then you ever would in LH or SH, the hours are great with a lot of day trips, it is a whole lot easier to manipulate or trip swap your roster, the work is lighter - with a lot less medical situations etc and while the money isn't as good, you don't actually work a whole lot (with the max planned at most regionals approx 32 hrs a week inc rsvs).
I've worked in SH and regional environments and regional airlines do hold a number of advantages - it's all up to what you really want and your lifestyle choice.
WHatever you do though, don't accept a position with any regional and end up complaining about the money and conditions for the next 10 years it takes you to edge your way into a long haul environment - people just that just ruin your day!
overhere
Every airline staff member is somewhat bitter towards their employee - morale at Qantas Long & SHort Haul is low, DJ morale is low, JQ morale is low... it is just the nature of the industry that the grass is always greener on the other side and people feel that their company isn't giving them "enough".
From what I've seen,morale at eastern is somewhat better then other airlines in the country.
Having said that though, what do you actually want to be a flight attendant for and what sort of flying do you desire? If you want to be long haul flight attendant to "see the world" (and spend weeks a year sick, always be tired and never see your family) then being a regional flight attendant is not going to be terribly rewarding for you after a few months.
Regional flying offers a number of advantages over long and short haul work - overnights are usually not more then 5-6 a month meaning you see a whole lot more of your family then you ever would in LH or SH, the hours are great with a lot of day trips, it is a whole lot easier to manipulate or trip swap your roster, the work is lighter - with a lot less medical situations etc and while the money isn't as good, you don't actually work a whole lot (with the max planned at most regionals approx 32 hrs a week inc rsvs).
I've worked in SH and regional environments and regional airlines do hold a number of advantages - it's all up to what you really want and your lifestyle choice.
WHatever you do though, don't accept a position with any regional and end up complaining about the money and conditions for the next 10 years it takes you to edge your way into a long haul environment - people just that just ruin your day!
overhere
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Overhere,
Thank you so much for your reply. I found it very usefull.
I am still young, and L/H is my main goal at this stage. Not really to see the world, I've already seen most of it, it is the idea of meeting people from all different walks of life, working with different people each day.
I sit in an office dealing with the same people everyday, driving to the same place every day, parking my car in the same place everyday. I feel like I am stuck in Ground Hog Day!!!
I know L/H is extremely demanding on the body, but I pretty sure I can handle it. After several years in L/H I can see my self wanting to come back down to earth and just doing S/H or even regional.
Anyway, I am going to go to the interview, just for the experience, but I think I will keep holding out for L/H. I speak French & Japanese, so that should help a little. I am also trying for Emirates.
Thanks once again...
Thank you so much for your reply. I found it very usefull.
I am still young, and L/H is my main goal at this stage. Not really to see the world, I've already seen most of it, it is the idea of meeting people from all different walks of life, working with different people each day.
I sit in an office dealing with the same people everyday, driving to the same place every day, parking my car in the same place everyday. I feel like I am stuck in Ground Hog Day!!!
I know L/H is extremely demanding on the body, but I pretty sure I can handle it. After several years in L/H I can see my self wanting to come back down to earth and just doing S/H or even regional.
Anyway, I am going to go to the interview, just for the experience, but I think I will keep holding out for L/H. I speak French & Japanese, so that should help a little. I am also trying for Emirates.
Thanks once again...
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Overhere,
Morale is only low at certain places, with some airlines, morale changes from place to place and where i'm based the morale is quite good.
I Just Want to Fly,
It's great to see your enthusiasm, but moving back to "just" short haul or regional etc isn't as easy as it sounds. You have to get in in the first place. Also these days with the way say QF are restructuring the flying, short haul isn't really short haul anymore (certain bases anyway), I am short haul and in July i was only in Australia for 9 days for the whole month! Also you can work short haul and work with all different cultures and with people from all walks of life, the whole industry is very diverse, you won't just find it in one division.
Good luck with everything, fingers crossed for you! If you are fluent in Japanese and French then that will definately be a big advantage for you, however on the other hand i've heard of people with no language other than English getting the job over someone that speaks two or three languages, so i guess be aware that you need to sell the whole package and not just one or two things as everything counts!
Good luck again!
Oz
Morale is only low at certain places, with some airlines, morale changes from place to place and where i'm based the morale is quite good.
I Just Want to Fly,
It's great to see your enthusiasm, but moving back to "just" short haul or regional etc isn't as easy as it sounds. You have to get in in the first place. Also these days with the way say QF are restructuring the flying, short haul isn't really short haul anymore (certain bases anyway), I am short haul and in July i was only in Australia for 9 days for the whole month! Also you can work short haul and work with all different cultures and with people from all walks of life, the whole industry is very diverse, you won't just find it in one division.
Good luck with everything, fingers crossed for you! If you are fluent in Japanese and French then that will definately be a big advantage for you, however on the other hand i've heard of people with no language other than English getting the job over someone that speaks two or three languages, so i guess be aware that you need to sell the whole package and not just one or two things as everything counts!
Good luck again!
Oz
