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Flyinggroup Antwerp/NL assessment

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Flyinggroup Antwerp/NL assessment

Old 7th May 2021, 20:41
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Flyinggroup Antwerp/NL assessment

I may very soon have a chance to do the assessment with Flyinggroup and as there is no recent info on them I thought I would try my luck here. My main interest is what to expect as far as the assessment/sim ride, I have already met with the principal for the account in question.

PMs are of course welcome, but replies here would better serve future applicants looking for information.
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Old 8th May 2021, 10:25
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I would start with looking up in which country Antwerp is located
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Old 8th May 2021, 16:58
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Originally Posted by deing View Post
I would start with looking up in which country Antwerp is located
Well. Flyingroup had the headquarters in Antwerp but also a Dutch unit so maybe he is going for the Dutch side of the company. Stop being a D..K if you got nothing useful to contribute
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Old 11th May 2021, 05:08
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Originally Posted by deing View Post
I would start with looking up in which country Antwerp is located
Thank you for your very useful reply, PPRuNe’s finest shines again. A good reminder why I normally don’t come to this site for advice but go to another, real PROFESSIONAL pilot network group. Unfortunately their knowledge on European companies is limited, hence my question being posted here.
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Old 13th May 2021, 10:31
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Never mind, the offer I received was an insult to my experience and the profession as a whole, especially their proposed bond which was the most outrageous I have ever seen. They would not even entertain my more than reasonable counter offer. Even after two years of no job I turned them down for a job at my home airport, that should give you an indication of how poor it was. European aviation is so depressing, back to the US I go.
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Old 13th May 2021, 10:40
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Just curious. Would you mind posting the offer here so more of us can get an inside of what companies are offering.

type-position-salary-extras etc

thats the whole point of you asking others for info and others learning from your experience
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Old 13th May 2021, 12:09
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Originally Posted by pilot dude View Post
Just curious. Would you mind posting the offer here so more of us can get an inside of what companies are offering.

type-position-salary-extras etc

thats the whole point of you asking others for info and others learning from your experience
PC24 Captain €5040/month, €95/day per diem. They also had some sort of freelance proposal but I didn’t even entertain that as an option so didn’t pay too much attention to it.

The worst part was the bond, for a light jet. Bond for initial was €52700 with 3 years pro rated followed by a SECOND bond for recurrent of €35200. So in reality a €90000 bond for flying a light jet!!! Not gonna happen in my world. Any company who bonds you for recurrent has shown me they have a retention problem and that is enough for me not wanting to work for them.

It may turn into a nice little gig, and if I was at the end of my career and I wanted some beer money then I possibly would have entertained it, but not now when I am basically in the prime of my career, and on top of that have a confirmed interview for a job in the US which I will pursue instead.

This is for a first time jet (or any airplane) owner, and although he seemed like a nice enough guy, I am not sure he realizes the true costs of owning a jet. I wish them all the luck, but it wasn’t for me and I told them so.
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Old 13th May 2021, 18:43
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Welcome to Europe's rotten GA market!
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Old 13th May 2021, 19:57
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! View Post
Welcome to Europe's rotten GA market!
More like goodbye Europe. I have for the longest said I will never work in Europe again (technically never did, just one European employer with work in Africa) but as this job literally dropped in my lap by coincidence and the fact it was 45 minutes from home I decided to consider it if the terms were right. Aaaaaand surprise surprise they weren’t. So now it’s off to the US again, good thing I decided to renew my Green Card last year.
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Old 13th May 2021, 21:00
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Originally Posted by FlyTCI View Post
PC24 Captain €5040/month, €95/day per diem. They also had some sort of freelance proposal but I didn’t even entertain that as an option so didn’t pay too much attention to it.

The worst part was the bond, for a light jet. Bond for initial was €52700 with 3 years pro rated followed by a SECOND bond for recurrent of €35200. So in reality a €90000 bond for flying a light jet!!! Not gonna happen in my world. Any company who bonds you for recurrent has shown me they have a retention problem and that is enough for me not wanting to work for them.

It may turn into a nice little gig, and if I was at the end of my career and I wanted some beer money then I possibly would have entertained it, but not now when I am basically in the prime of my career, and on top of that have a confirmed interview for a job in the US which I will pursue instead.

This is for a first time jet (or any airplane) owner, and although he seemed like a nice enough guy, I am not sure he realizes the true costs of owning a jet. I wish them all the luck, but it wasn’t for me and I told them so.
Captain pay on a PC24 at 5000Euro a month! What a bloody joke. I suppose they (FLYINGGROUP) were expecting above and beyond at that "high" salary! Wow - they must really be able to attract and retain the best of the best flight crew - NOT.

Excellent. Thank you for sharing. Another company added to the [email protected] list of companies to avoid. The name of the company - FLYINGGROUP - another bottom feeder operator. This type of information is precisely what we need to know and put forward.

FLYINGGROUP = bottom feeder = stay clear = keep client away.
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Old 13th May 2021, 21:08
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! View Post
Welcome to Europe's rotten GA market!
Yep - at least on this one we got some factual numbers on the table. No way to hide away on that one. FLYINGGROUP has presented it self and its beast of nature.
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Old 14th May 2021, 08:49
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Whilst I agree that the pay is too low I can almost understand why they try to get away with paying so little in this current market. And they probably would. However, I think there is no excuse for the absolutely outrageous bond conditions. I agree with the OP: The bond is taking the p..s. I sincerely hope they find no captain prepared to enter into such an agreement.
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Old 14th May 2021, 09:16
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Originally Posted by 733driver View Post
Whilst I agree that the pay is too low I can almost understand why they try to get away with paying so little in this current market. And they probably would. However, I think there is no excuse for the absolutely outrageous bond conditions. I agree with the OP: The bond is taking the p..s. I sincerely hope they find no captain prepared to enter into such an agreement.
And that was my biggest gripe with their offer, and I’m surprised that you guys have reacted to the pay but not bond. I can hypothetically go to the US now and get myself a GV w 550 differences or GLEX type for way less money than that, airplanes which can easily generate 3 to 4 times the earning potentials that of a PC2, and that without being tied down for three years. A friend of mine signed a $70000 3 year bond for a 6000 Vision type some years ago and at his job after that he is now making $250K+ working for a great owner. Yes, I would have no time in type but with my previous experience in large cabin (think bigger than G’s and Globals) and my extensive network combined with my access to the US job market that probably would not be an issue for very long. Now, I am not promoting to pay for your own type, but compared to the option of this ridiculous bond it would have been the smarter way to go.

I told FG straight up that I am in the business to safely and efficiently fly the owner and his family, and potential charter customers, around and not in the business to subsidize training costs which are part of a private jet ownership as a multi millionaire in his $10M airplane. I am sure that didn’t sit well with the owner or FG but I honestly couldn’t give a rat’s a$$. They insulted my experience and the many many sacrifices I have made over the years to be where I am at and I refuse to take that laying down.

As for someone else taking the job, the fact that an ex EK A380 Captain had already accepted this lousy offer should tell you something about this market.

I am not bitter as they actually did me a favor and pretty much made the decision for me and I am off to bigger and better things! They also showed me once and for all to not bother with the European so called aviation industry.
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Old 14th May 2021, 13:00
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Originally Posted by FlyTCI View Post
And that was my biggest gripe with their offer, and I’m surprised that you guys have reacted to the pay but not bond. I can hypothetically go to the US now and get myself a GV w 550 differences or GLEX type for way less money than that, airplanes which can easily generate 3 to 4 times the earning potentials that of a PC2, and that without being tied down for three years. A friend of mine signed a $70000 3 year bond for a 6000 Vision type some years ago and at his job after that he is now making $250K+ working for a great owner. Yes, I would have no time in type but with my previous experience in large cabin (think bigger than G’s and Globals) and my extensive network combined with my access to the US job market that probably would not be an issue for very long. Now, I am not promoting to pay for your own type, but compared to the option of this ridiculous bond it would have been the smarter way to go.

I told FG straight up that I am in the business to safely and efficiently fly the owner and his family, and potential charter customers, around and not in the business to subsidize training costs which are part of a private jet ownership as a multi millionaire in his $10M airplane. I am sure that didn’t sit well with the owner or FG but I honestly couldn’t give a rat’s a$$. They insulted my experience and the many many sacrifices I have made over the years to be where I am at and I refuse to take that laying down.

As for someone else taking the job, the fact that an ex EK A380 Captain had already accepted this lousy offer should tell you something about this market.

I am not bitter as they actually did me a favor and pretty much made the decision for me and I am off to bigger and better things! They also showed me once and for all to not bother with the European so called aviation industry.
If the pay and other employment conditions were attractive (which they´re clearly not) you wouldn´t have to worry to much about the bond, would you. You´d stay on as happy camper and the days go by. The bond for the initial surely covers ALL associated expenses related to to the initial training, which means type rating AND base training on the aircraft (EASA land), hotels, per diem, travel etc. - which is not unusual to be part of the initial training bond - though the quote your given on the PC24 does sound on the high side for a light jet (but I´d admit to not know the type rating cost on type).

I don´t see how you´re subsidizing anything - since you not paying for anything UNLESS you leave prematurely. IF you were told to arrive with a self sponsored type rating - you´d be subsidizing training costs. This is not the case. The monetary investment is done by someone other than yourself. The bonding on the recurrent is interesting though, since it overlaps with the initial and as you correctly summarize apparently accumulates until you reach the end of the training bond. Ultimately it´s a sickening setup - and I can understand that you step aside from it. Good luck in America.
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Old 14th May 2021, 14:01
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
If the pay and other employment conditions were attractive (which they´re clearly not) you wouldn´t have to worry to much about the bond, would you. You´d stay on as happy camper and the days go by. The bond for the initial surely covers ALL associated expenses related to to the initial training, which means type rating AND base training on the aircraft (EASA land), hotels, per diem, travel etc. - which is not unusual to be part of the initial training bond - though the quote your given on the PC24 does sound on the high side for a light jet (but I´d admit to not know the type rating cost on type).

I don´t see how you´re subsidizing anything - since you not paying for anything UNLESS you leave prematurely. IF you were told to arrive with a self sponsored type rating - you´d be subsidizing training costs. This is not the case. The monetary investment is done by someone other than yourself. The bonding on the recurrent is interesting though, since it overlaps with the initial and as you correctly summarize apparently accumulates until you reach the end of the training bond. Ultimately it´s a sickening setup - and I can understand that you step aside from it. Good luck in America.
Yes, I would only be subsidizing the owner if I left prematurely and that’s why the three years was a no go for me, I don’t like to lock myself into a contract like that. Three years is a VERY long time in aviation and a lot of things can happen in that time frame.

Now, as far as the bond for the subsequent recurrent I definitely do believe that is subsidizing the owner even if the money itself comes out of his pocket, it’s a cost which should be covered by the owner and locks someone down for another year who for under a minimum of a year has already shown him if they are a good employee or not worth keeping. No ifs, ends or buts about it and you seem to agree with it, a very weird set up indeed.

I actually don’t fully blame the owner for this contract, even if he was involved with the discussion regarding the counter offer I made and they decided to not entertain it all. He actually told me at our f2f that the bond was probably going to be two years. Maybe he was blowing smoke up my rear, that I will never know, but he probably put full trust in the management company that they would do the “right thing” in the offer. This guy has never owned an airplane before and I am sure FG were promising him unicorn and rainbows and telling him this is how it’s done, just trust us.

Thanks on my return to America. I know aviation may not be perfect over there either, but the yanks have a different and healthier view on aviation and how it should be done, which is quite refreshing. Every now and then I link stories about European aviation on the US based web pilot forum I frequent over there to make them realize how good they in general have it over there. They are always aghast on what the pilots in Europe have to endure and it puts their relatively small complaints in a perspective.

I have decided to not rehash this any further in public, their crappy offer has now been made known for anyone to see and decide for themselves should they ever consider employment with this group, and I gain nothing further by discussing this topic. Basically everything has been covered here by now.
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Old 15th May 2021, 00:36
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So called professional pilots choosing to come on here revealing their emotional instability when they don’t get what they want. I think it’s unfair to speak of FG so disparagingly. The deal may have been weak according to you, but doesn’t warrant such an aggressive response against them AND Europe when you have never worked here (technically, as you say). It’s not nice. Calm down and move on. I’m sure they dodged a bullet with you too. Enjoy America.
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Old 15th May 2021, 07:08
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Originally Posted by 3RDi View Post
So called professional pilots choosing to come on here revealing their emotional instability when they don’t get what they want. I think it’s unfair to speak of FG so disparagingly. The deal may have been weak according to you, but doesn’t warrant such an aggressive response against them AND Europe when you have never worked here (technically, as you say). It’s not nice. Calm down and move on. I’m sure they dodged a bullet with you too. Enjoy America.
I for one think he did the community a favor by sharing those details with us.

I note you couldn't resist a snide remark yourself. Perhaps best to follow your own advice.
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Old 15th May 2021, 07:32
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Originally Posted by 3RDi View Post
So called professional pilots choosing to come on here revealing their emotional instability when they don’t get what they want. I think it’s unfair to speak of FG so disparagingly. The deal may have been weak according to you, but doesn’t warrant such an aggressive response against them AND Europe when you have never worked here (technically, as you say). It’s not nice. Calm down and move on. I’m sure they dodged a bullet with you too. Enjoy America.
Are you trying to be funny?
Flying Group is "offering" a 3 year 50+K euro type rating bond with an additional 35K euro recurrent bond to work on a light jet. That´s surely not normal to most "professional pilots" as you describe it yourself. Considering the pay conditions offered by Flying Group, as a presumed reward for the privilege, I don´t see why the OP shouldn´t feel offended. But sure, you´re right, to each his own, and this deal my not be "weak according to you", but that´s just a good example of what´s dragging down the pilot market conditions here in Europe - consider yourself as part of the problem. The OP stood down the "opportunity" and seeks to head back to the US - good on him. Great for Flying Group, they´re now getting Captains that are loyal towards their training bond and not the operations. Good luck with that project.
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Old 15th May 2021, 07:35
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Originally Posted by 733driver View Post
I for one think he did the community a favor by sharing those details with us.

I note you couldn't resist a snide remark yourself. Perhaps best to follow your own advice.
I couldn´t agree more. Spot on.
The OP did the pilot community a great favor in sharing the details of the Flying Group offer. Good on him for that!
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Old 15th May 2021, 09:47
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Originally Posted by 3RDi View Post
So called professional pilots choosing to come on here revealing their emotional instability when they don’t get what they want. I think it’s unfair to speak of FG so disparagingly. The deal may have been weak according to you, but doesn’t warrant such an aggressive response against them AND Europe when you have never worked here (technically, as you say). It’s not nice. Calm down and move on. I’m sure they dodged a bullet with you too. Enjoy America.
You are, like everyone else here, entitled to your opinion and your snide remarks about my personality don’t bother me one bit as you obviously don’t know me. It’s just unfortunate that there are (supposedly) professional pilots out there who don’t seem to value their own worth and don’t believe in the concept of “pilots helping pilots”. I smell a management type here. No wonder the European market looks the way it does.

FG could have done two things to not have their offer become known to the pilot community, which the majority here actually seems to appreciate that it did:

1. Offered me a fair and respectable offer and everyone would have lived happily ever after.
2. Have me sign an NDA. I have done that in the past, and that was for a very fair and respectable offer to boot and not an offer they needed to be afraid of becoming known.

FG did neither of the two and here we are.

With that, I’m out. I really mean that this time.
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