Vistajet Future
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
... and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
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Originally Posted by what next
Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.
And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.
In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)
And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?
And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.
In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)
And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?
Anyhew... I just wanted to stir the pot up a tad, our "profession" is mostly not a straight thing, a lot of people go different paths. I have been self employed as a freelancer and I`m employed full time. I had a part time contract and I started my vocational life as an electrician and self funded PPL/CPL/IFR/ATP/FI/TRI/TRE. As much as I wouldn´t like to be undercut, I have understanding for folks left with 60%. And the same freelancers that might have been undercut by these guys, have actively undercut a full time employee somewhere, cos thats why freelancers mostly are employed: they are cheaper.
This was always so and will never go away.
BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by His dudeness
BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by what next
Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts!
Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.
Just to put some facts straight.
Just to put some facts straight.
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Originally Posted by CL300
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.
How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?
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Originally Posted by what next
So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists.
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Vistajet will surely still be around in 12, 24, 48 or more months from now. Rest assured. It's a "sellers market" now so pilots, for the first time in decades, have a greater choice of where, how and for whom they want to work. For some the 'Vista-package' doesn't work so they decide to seek employment elsewhere. That is a good thing. Both for the individuals involved and for the company because if you are unhappy with your employment you don't give it a 100%. People disparage the VistaJet model here comparing it to the likes of e.g. NetJet. That is unfortunate because the very idea of these 2 companies are radically different which makes their approach towards the market, both renumeration package and clientele, almost incomparable.
NetJet idea is based of fractional ownership. This means that all costs will be payed for by the owners of the aircraft that NetJet manages. If NetJet management did their homework correct then they would never have to dip into their own kitty to supplement owners expenses. Only when things go disasterly wrong (like in the 2008 financial meltdown) do they have to make up for short-falls. And like others said before, they did so in a very humane/generous way. Kudos to them for that.
VistaJet on the other hand operates more like an airline in this respect meaning that they took/take all the risk upfront to buy and crew and maintain and operate 70+ aircraft worldwide and then try to recover this expenditure by chartering. Either 'on-demand' or by selling hours. This means that they have to be as lean as possible I think.
The 'Vista-package' is quite straightforward and management never minces words about what it entails. Still 350+ pilots have decided to take them up on it and do their utmost to make the Vistajet model work. I therefor find it distasteful that many here disparage their colleagues for doing exactly what they themselves are doing; working for a company with the T's&C's that they find acceptable.
And those who's perspective has changed and they no longer find the 'Vista-package' acceptable will seek employment elsewhere. VistaJet will no doubt find crew to replace them and everybody will be happy.
NetJet idea is based of fractional ownership. This means that all costs will be payed for by the owners of the aircraft that NetJet manages. If NetJet management did their homework correct then they would never have to dip into their own kitty to supplement owners expenses. Only when things go disasterly wrong (like in the 2008 financial meltdown) do they have to make up for short-falls. And like others said before, they did so in a very humane/generous way. Kudos to them for that.
VistaJet on the other hand operates more like an airline in this respect meaning that they took/take all the risk upfront to buy and crew and maintain and operate 70+ aircraft worldwide and then try to recover this expenditure by chartering. Either 'on-demand' or by selling hours. This means that they have to be as lean as possible I think.
The 'Vista-package' is quite straightforward and management never minces words about what it entails. Still 350+ pilots have decided to take them up on it and do their utmost to make the Vistajet model work. I therefor find it distasteful that many here disparage their colleagues for doing exactly what they themselves are doing; working for a company with the T's&C's that they find acceptable.
And those who's perspective has changed and they no longer find the 'Vista-package' acceptable will seek employment elsewhere. VistaJet will no doubt find crew to replace them and everybody will be happy.
Last edited by dnx; 6th Jan 2019 at 20:52. Reason: gramar
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Originally Posted by CL300
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
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Originally Posted by what next
I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.
But going back to practical things, so you see Dmitry Yurgowitsch and Adnan Grawotish (I just made these names up btw) on your list. Do you have a special connection to the secret service to find out who they are and what they do ? Or are they just generally suspicious cause they ...fly some place ?
Now to your guns...IF they had been used to defend, say Kurds from the IS, surely they would be "good" guns ? Is it really your place to decide what is "okay" morally (if otherwise legal) to transport and what is not ? Look, we all know that in an ideal world.... But it ain´t and never will be ideal.
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written.
I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.
How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?
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Originally Posted by CL300
This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
How does PPJN vet/verify information that's posted? The above is incorrect as far as i know (both 19/11 and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
Technically the contract has allowed 19/11 for a while, it’s only now that they’re asking crew to start a couple of rotations per year a day early. Initially it was by force but now you bid for two months of the year when you’re happy to start early. It’s still 17/13 though, generally.
All said and done you’re probably looking at about 215-220 days a year where you’re away on company duty, including your training days. So what does that work out at? Something like 18/12? Usually you’re home early on day 17, sometimes you’ll make it home on day 16. If you’re lucky you’ll be late going out on day 1. It’s hard for the family man (or woman) but in fairness to management they do tell you this at interview stage. They’re also honest about the [poor] pay, the hard work and promise nothing more than 3* hotels, so they’re very open about the conditions.
The reality is different. Hotels are generally very good; you win some, you lose some, but generally they’re Crowne Plaza type as standard. Asia, Central America and ME can see some outstanding hotels and they certainly outweigh the crap ones. Hotels just aren’t an issue for most.
On the other hand the pay is. But then you’re told that at the outset so what can you say? They’ve obviously done the sums to work out whether it’s worth increasing salaries to retain people or whether it’s cheaper to bond new guys. Looks like it’s cheaper to bond new guys!
It can be incredibly hard work though. Even though the numbers work it doesn’t take into account flying through the night and missing a whole night of sleep, having a few hours of [poor quality] sleep during the day and then flying again the following night. You can say ‘no’ though. People do and as far as I know they don’t really get questioned about it.
There are some excellent sides to the job. The variety of destinations is unrivalled. The equipment is top notch and well maintained. The crews are, on the whole, fantastic. There’s generally quite a bit of freedom, I certainly never felt like management was breathing down your neck all the time. You get paid on the dot, every single month.
Downsides are economy class proceeding, low pay, not enough crew and too long rotations.
It’s not for everyone and you’re always going to get people who moan, but they’re not a million miles off creating a company you could call a career company. A few more crew, a few days less per month and a bit more cash and people wouldn’t leave. It’s really quite good fun. Yes you can earn more and work less elsewhere but for a lot of people there’s more to the package. That being said; I think most crew would agree that the balance between work, life and money isn’t working out in their favour at the moment, hence people are leaving.
I hope that clears things up a little. I thought it was a nice place to work.
M
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic
How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?
VistaJet is a contender, ran by Austrian DNA, as a consequence pay can be an issue, but again what else at that scale in Europe ? If they call me me, i will join , no doubt, whatever the fleet
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Aircraft are well maintained. But being a truly "global operator" maintenance is carried out where-ever necessary. I've never had Management ask (or demand) to take a limping bird into the air. For them it's all about reputation. Most of their clientele they get from mouth to ear and anecdotal referrals. And since we're busier then ever I think that means that part at least is covered.
Last edited by dnx; 10th Jan 2019 at 07:54.
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VJ looking for Global 6000 and CL 350/850 FO.
Any change to the conditions, schedule etc. Is it still 17 days on 13 days off, that seems to be putting a lot of experienced crew off working there.
Any change to the conditions, schedule etc. Is it still 17 days on 13 days off, that seems to be putting a lot of experienced crew off working there.
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I don't get why so much people complain about their roster. Honestly, in business aviation there are not many companies offering better ones than this. Maybe a real 14/14 is better, although my experience is that those companies who advertises a 14/14 in reality proceed you on your first off day and after your last duty day. So, basically it is more of a 16/12
I was flying for Vistajet almost 12 years. I left them and i am very happy where i am right now. The roster in VJ was extremely stable. Cannot comment on how it is now. I had in 80 percent of the cases my proceeding home on my last duty day in the evening, so my roster was most of the time a 16/14 rather than 17/13.
I would like to know which companies offer significantly better rosters. If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
I was flying for Vistajet almost 12 years. I left them and i am very happy where i am right now. The roster in VJ was extremely stable. Cannot comment on how it is now. I had in 80 percent of the cases my proceeding home on my last duty day in the evening, so my roster was most of the time a 16/14 rather than 17/13.
I would like to know which companies offer significantly better rosters. If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
Originally Posted by FLYDUS
If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.
Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.
Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.
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Originally Posted by 733driver
Wow. I don't know what to call this. Crazy? Delusional? Take your pick.
The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.
Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.
Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.
The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.
Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.
Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.
I´d like to work 6/5 rather than 17/13 BUT if he likes it better, than thats his opinion. Period.
