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Vistajet Future

Old 6th Jan 2019, 14:16
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme View Post
... and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 15:43
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.

And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.

In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)

And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?
Since I brought the mirror up: are you in the position to question first your ops and then probably the clients/pax if they are "morally" sound enough to be flown ? Show me a cab driver who does that.

Anyhew... I just wanted to stir the pot up a tad, our "profession" is mostly not a straight thing, a lot of people go different paths. I have been self employed as a freelancer and I`m employed full time. I had a part time contract and I started my vocational life as an electrician and self funded PPL/CPL/IFR/ATP/FI/TRI/TRE. As much as I wouldn´t like to be undercut, I have understanding for folks left with 60%. And the same freelancers that might have been undercut by these guys, have actively undercut a full time employee somewhere, cos thats why freelancers mostly are employed: they are cheaper.
This was always so and will never go away.

BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 16:31
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.
I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 16:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...
Fairly sure they don’t check it at the Vista interview 😂
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 17:20
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Originally Posted by EatMyShorts! View Post
Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.

Just to put some facts straight.
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 17:50
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
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Originally Posted by CL300 View Post
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written.

I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.

How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 18:51
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists.
You must be naive or just fooling yourself. You can always play around who is actually an oligarch vs big businessman or what is exactly corruption within politics but if you exclude all of them you can only do ferry flights then...
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 20:49
  #48 (permalink)  
dnx
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rijswijk NL
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Vistajet will surely still be around in 12, 24, 48 or more months from now. Rest assured. It's a "sellers market" now so pilots, for the first time in decades, have a greater choice of where, how and for whom they want to work. For some the 'Vista-package' doesn't work so they decide to seek employment elsewhere. That is a good thing. Both for the individuals involved and for the company because if you are unhappy with your employment you don't give it a 100%. People disparage the VistaJet model here comparing it to the likes of e.g. NetJet. That is unfortunate because the very idea of these 2 companies are radically different which makes their approach towards the market, both renumeration package and clientele, almost incomparable.
NetJet idea is based of fractional ownership. This means that all costs will be payed for by the owners of the aircraft that NetJet manages. If NetJet management did their homework correct then they would never have to dip into their own kitty to supplement owners expenses. Only when things go disasterly wrong (like in the 2008 financial meltdown) do they have to make up for short-falls. And like others said before, they did so in a very humane/generous way. Kudos to them for that.
VistaJet on the other hand operates more like an airline in this respect meaning that they took/take all the risk upfront to buy and crew and maintain and operate 70+ aircraft worldwide and then try to recover this expenditure by chartering. Either 'on-demand' or by selling hours. This means that they have to be as lean as possible I think.
The 'Vista-package' is quite straightforward and management never minces words about what it entails. Still 350+ pilots have decided to take them up on it and do their utmost to make the Vistajet model work. I therefor find it distasteful that many here disparage their colleagues for doing exactly what they themselves are doing; working for a company with the T's&C's that they find acceptable.
And those who's perspective has changed and they no longer find the 'Vista-package' acceptable will seek employment elsewhere. VistaJet will no doubt find crew to replace them and everybody will be happy.

Last edited by dnx; 6th Jan 2019 at 20:52. Reason: gramar
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 21:31
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by CL300 View Post
So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
...because the company has an official derogation. Wideroe in Norway has such a derogation as well, but pilots there have no choice. I think that NJE is fair by making it a voluntary and payable extra-duty. Of course it is a tool, but it is a tool of working together.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 23:03
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.
Wellwellwell....I once flew (for the operator you work) one of Ghaddafis sons. I flew several times to a place in eastern europe with a dude (an oligarch) that I wouldn´t have bought a used bicycle from - for your operator with the airplane of your employer. Can´t help it, I don´t feel bad about it.I´m neither police nor judge, I´m just a "driver". I once trained with Mubaraks son in the sim. (nice dude by the way). I once flew the german foreign secretary who might have ordered german troops into battle and was generally speaking not my cup of tea.... Can´t say I have sleepless nights about that. I flew VW executives who have received stern criticism (and should go to jail IMO) for their part in "Dieselgate".
But going back to practical things, so you see Dmitry Yurgowitsch and Adnan Grawotish (I just made these names up btw) on your list. Do you have a special connection to the secret service to find out who they are and what they do ? Or are they just generally suspicious cause they ...fly some place ?

Now to your guns...IF they had been used to defend, say Kurds from the IS, surely they would be "good" guns ? Is it really your place to decide what is "okay" morally (if otherwise legal) to transport and what is not ? Look, we all know that in an ideal world.... But it ain´t and never will be ideal.
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Old 7th Jan 2019, 06:48
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged View Post

Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written.

I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.

How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?
This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..
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Old 7th Jan 2019, 13:40
  #52 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 2018
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VJ

Originally Posted by CL300 View Post
This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..
How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?
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Old 8th Jan 2019, 17:20
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme View Post
How does PPJN vet/verify information that's posted? The above is incorrect as far as i know (both 19/11 and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)
Perhaps a few things need clearing up about VJ in this thread.....

Technically the contract has allowed 19/11 for a while, it’s only now that they’re asking crew to start a couple of rotations per year a day early. Initially it was by force but now you bid for two months of the year when you’re happy to start early. It’s still 17/13 though, generally.

All said and done you’re probably looking at about 215-220 days a year where you’re away on company duty, including your training days. So what does that work out at? Something like 18/12? Usually you’re home early on day 17, sometimes you’ll make it home on day 16. If you’re lucky you’ll be late going out on day 1. It’s hard for the family man (or woman) but in fairness to management they do tell you this at interview stage. They’re also honest about the [poor] pay, the hard work and promise nothing more than 3* hotels, so they’re very open about the conditions.

The reality is different. Hotels are generally very good; you win some, you lose some, but generally they’re Crowne Plaza type as standard. Asia, Central America and ME can see some outstanding hotels and they certainly outweigh the crap ones. Hotels just aren’t an issue for most.

On the other hand the pay is. But then you’re told that at the outset so what can you say? They’ve obviously done the sums to work out whether it’s worth increasing salaries to retain people or whether it’s cheaper to bond new guys. Looks like it’s cheaper to bond new guys!

It can be incredibly hard work though. Even though the numbers work it doesn’t take into account flying through the night and missing a whole night of sleep, having a few hours of [poor quality] sleep during the day and then flying again the following night. You can say ‘no’ though. People do and as far as I know they don’t really get questioned about it.

There are some excellent sides to the job. The variety of destinations is unrivalled. The equipment is top notch and well maintained. The crews are, on the whole, fantastic. There’s generally quite a bit of freedom, I certainly never felt like management was breathing down your neck all the time. You get paid on the dot, every single month.

Downsides are economy class proceeding, low pay, not enough crew and too long rotations.

It’s not for everyone and you’re always going to get people who moan, but they’re not a million miles off creating a company you could call a career company. A few more crew, a few days less per month and a bit more cash and people wouldn’t leave. It’s really quite good fun. Yes you can earn more and work less elsewhere but for a lot of people there’s more to the package. That being said; I think most crew would agree that the balance between work, life and money isn’t working out in their favour at the moment, hence people are leaving.

I hope that clears things up a little. I thought it was a nice place to work.

M
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 06:14
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: up there
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given the current lack of crew: are the hour requirements for the global fo vacancy set in stone or are they flexible with it?
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Old 9th Jan 2019, 13:40
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?
Nothing compares to NJE IMHO, both in Good and Bad; If they did not fire all French and Belgium based captains overnight I will still be there.

VistaJet is a contender, ran by Austrian DNA, as a consequence pay can be an issue, but again what else at that scale in Europe ? If they call me me, i will join , no doubt, whatever the fleet
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 03:50
  #56 (permalink)  
dnx
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rijswijk NL
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Aircraft are well maintained. But being a truly "global operator" maintenance is carried out where-ever necessary. I've never had Management ask (or demand) to take a limping bird into the air. For them it's all about reputation. Most of their clientele they get from mouth to ear and anecdotal referrals. And since we're busier then ever I think that means that part at least is covered.

Last edited by dnx; 10th Jan 2019 at 07:54.
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Old 10th Jan 2019, 07:13
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Wouldn't be mouth to ear more effective?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 17:36
  #58 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2018
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VJ looking for Global 6000 and CL 350/850 FO.

Any change to the conditions, schedule etc. Is it still 17 days on 13 days off, that seems to be putting a lot of experienced crew off working there.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 10:11
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Germany
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I don't get why so much people complain about their roster. Honestly, in business aviation there are not many companies offering better ones than this. Maybe a real 14/14 is better, although my experience is that those companies who advertises a 14/14 in reality proceed you on your first off day and after your last duty day. So, basically it is more of a 16/12

I was flying for Vistajet almost 12 years. I left them and i am very happy where i am right now. The roster in VJ was extremely stable. Cannot comment on how it is now. I had in 80 percent of the cases my proceeding home on my last duty day in the evening, so my roster was most of the time a 16/14 rather than 17/13.

I would like to know which companies offer significantly better rosters. If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 16:37
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Originally Posted by FLYDUS View Post
If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13
Wow. I don't know what to call this. Crazy? Delusional? Take your pick.

The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.

Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.

Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.
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