Vistajet Future
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.
All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.
Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.
Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.
Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.
Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.
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Originally Posted by His dudeness
Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.
What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - canīt say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (donīt fancy tea without biscuits)
What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - canīt say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (donīt fancy tea without biscuits)
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged
I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.
All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.
Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.
Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.
Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.
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It is all true. Whilst painful to go through, NJ’s treatment of staff in the late 2000’s was way beyond what anyone would expect. However, that was the old management.....it would not happen again now.
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Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year off while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
Originally Posted by dirk85
Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year off while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.
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And the fact that they conveniently fired 153 captains overnight, with a wonderful choice to take : 3 months UK redundancy or a 13 months package; with no option to relocate... But I agree with what was said above, anytime I take my position back, even knowing the Damocles Sword, there is still nothing close ( as a package in the market, expect THE owner)
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Originally Posted by Arthur1815
Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.
Wether one can look in the mirror is another question, one that one has to answer to himself.
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No, I wouldnt have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
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Originally Posted by dirk85
No, I wouldnt have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
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Originally Posted by His dudeness
Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?
Or at least they shouldn't, but as we see in the above case, not everybody plays by the rules.
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?
There are no written rules that you should not work well below market price and undercut your colleagues.
But please, go ahead, but then do not complain that our profession is going bad and T&C are going to hell.
You might be happy to work for peanuts and have to pay for everything out of your pocket, but many others are not.
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?
And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.
In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)
And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?
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It is a normal trend, when you compare operators in the "business aviation" world, there is two big players. The legacy one, and the outsider. The first one grew from a stolen concept and claim it was his, and second one from the unfortunate withdrawal of a contender and the tax scandal from Austria.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers.
The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else.
This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can.
So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers.
The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else.
This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can.
So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought.
Last edited by CL300; 6th Jan 2019 at 08:57. Reason: mispell
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Vista schedule?
Originally Posted by dboy
According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��
you have to be insane to accept that.
you have to be insane to accept that.
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Originally Posted by CL300
Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home
Just to put some facts straight.
