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Vistajet Future

Old 4th Jan 2019, 18:01
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged View Post

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.
Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.

Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.
What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - can´t say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (don´t fancy tea without biscuits)
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 18:29
  #22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.



What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - can´t say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (don´t fancy tea without biscuits)
I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 18:30
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Globally Challenged View Post

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.
Well if everything you say is true I stand corrected and will admit that is impressive.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 18:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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It is all true. Whilst painful to go through, NJ’s treatment of staff in the late 2000’s was way beyond what anyone would expect. However, that was the old management.....it would not happen again now.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 20:27
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
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Old 4th Jan 2019, 21:37
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 02:37
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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And the fact that they conveniently fired 153 captains overnight, with a wonderful choice to take : 3 months UK redundancy or a 13 months package; with no option to relocate... But I agree with what was said above, anytime I take my position back, even knowing the Damocles Sword, there is still nothing close ( as a package in the market, expect THE owner)
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 10:02
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daddy Fantastic View Post
I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.
Plus 1 then !
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 10:10
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur1815 View Post

Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.
I know people who did not fly in their years off, but setting this aside: Dirk, would you not taken the opportunity ? Life isn´t fair and in this respect NJE pilots are not worse than others (I think). I have been annoyed (and undercut) by lawyers, medical doctors, executives, even policemen - people who did not need to make their living in this very profession for many years. Such is life in a profession with NO solidarity at all and a hit-and-run mentality of a lot of people involved.
Wether one can look in the mirror is another question, one that one has to answer to himself.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 14:32
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 15:37
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.
Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 15:55
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?
No.
Or at least they shouldn't, but as we see in the above case, not everybody plays by the rules.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 17:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme View Post


And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?
Yes, of course Morals or ethics, you can call the subjective.

There are no written rules that you should not work well below market price and undercut your colleagues.

But please, go ahead, but then do not complain that our profession is going bad and T&C are going to hell.
You might be happy to work for peanuts and have to pay for everything out of your pocket, but many others are not.
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Old 5th Jan 2019, 17:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Humpmedumpme View Post
And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?
Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.

And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.

In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)

And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 08:26
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I like how this thread about Vistajet descended into a pilot b*tch fight over Netjets or something... Professional pilots indeed.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 09:51
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Ultimately quite a few pilots think that there's a fight between Vista and Netjets. There's competition, yes, but that's all about it.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 09:56
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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It is a normal trend, when you compare operators in the "business aviation" world, there is two big players. The legacy one, and the outsider. The first one grew from a stolen concept and claim it was his, and second one from the unfortunate withdrawal of a contender and the tax scandal from Austria.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers.

The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else.
This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can.

So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought.

Last edited by CL300; 6th Jan 2019 at 09:57. Reason: mispell
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 10:32
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
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According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 11:36
  #39 (permalink)  
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Vista schedule?

Originally Posted by dboy View Post
According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.
Is that Vistajet schedule you are talking about? Who in there right mind would accept that. You would have to be insane.
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Old 6th Jan 2019, 14:44
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CL300 View Post
Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home
Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.

Just to put some facts straight.
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