Citation 750 down in Egelsbach.
An unconfirmed analysis by an apparently well informed source looking at the approach using a flight tracking programme suggested that the aircraft appeared to be doing more than 190 knots inside four miles. I do not fly the Citation X but on my 737 that would not be a stabilised approach.
Another tracking programme shows the aircraft a day or so before flying from California to Europe by way of Goose Bay in around 20 hours. Nobody knows who was flying that trip. But speculating that the owner liked to fly the jet himself and from the tone of other posts on here a certain picture is developing.
There is nothing stopping you doing this kind of stuff in a private operation other than of course common sense, which in this case seems to have been sadly missing.
Another tracking programme shows the aircraft a day or so before flying from California to Europe by way of Goose Bay in around 20 hours. Nobody knows who was flying that trip. But speculating that the owner liked to fly the jet himself and from the tone of other posts on here a certain picture is developing.
There is nothing stopping you doing this kind of stuff in a private operation other than of course common sense, which in this case seems to have been sadly missing.
Last edited by lederhosen; 7th Mar 2012 at 12:08.
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Dude
Ah, of course. so, for an approach for the purposes of CAT he would require 1700m or so. Do private operators tend to use the same, or is your 1.25 typical?
This one looks like such a tragedy for being to preventable.
Lederhosen
Is the 160kt limit still in place? Even if not then 190 kts seems lunatic around EDFE. It's not straightforward at 120 or so.
Ah, of course. so, for an approach for the purposes of CAT he would require 1700m or so. Do private operators tend to use the same, or is your 1.25 typical?
This one looks like such a tragedy for being to preventable.
Lederhosen
Is the 160kt limit still in place? Even if not then 190 kts seems lunatic around EDFE. It's not straightforward at 120 or so.
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jon the ideal family man and airman
greetings everybody;
i would like to thank all the sympathizers with our family's loss at the same time let me clarify some things;
the ''cowboy pilot'' is the owner of the company and also a certified citation X pilot. jon was the company chief pilot and franklin is the co-pilot. But during this flight jon was the acting co-pilot as franklin was not available.there are flts.that jon has to fly with the owner as the co pilot and the regular co-pilot is to stay.franklin the ''door prize'' co -pilot was fortunate to be not on the flt as he already resigned prior to the flight.
the only way to find out what really transpired in the last 9 sec of the flt. is when they finally decipher the cvr,blackbox....then we could say what really happened.....so please let's all wait and keep quite ,we are all suffering from this bad accident....i'm asking for all of you to refrain from commenting as respect to my son and our family...
lastly i am not aware of this 44yr old lady who claims ''our jon'' leaving a daughter....?i know for a fact that the he has three sons; 2 with his wife, veronica from CA and 1 from his previous marriage. i would like to appeal to this 44yr.old woman to quit this claims thus messing up the grieved moments of the legal family.... just shut up pls as you are not helping the situation...pls be considerate of the family's feelings!
god bless..... :
i would like to thank all the sympathizers with our family's loss at the same time let me clarify some things;
the ''cowboy pilot'' is the owner of the company and also a certified citation X pilot. jon was the company chief pilot and franklin is the co-pilot. But during this flight jon was the acting co-pilot as franklin was not available.there are flts.that jon has to fly with the owner as the co pilot and the regular co-pilot is to stay.franklin the ''door prize'' co -pilot was fortunate to be not on the flt as he already resigned prior to the flight.
the only way to find out what really transpired in the last 9 sec of the flt. is when they finally decipher the cvr,blackbox....then we could say what really happened.....so please let's all wait and keep quite ,we are all suffering from this bad accident....i'm asking for all of you to refrain from commenting as respect to my son and our family...
lastly i am not aware of this 44yr old lady who claims ''our jon'' leaving a daughter....?i know for a fact that the he has three sons; 2 with his wife, veronica from CA and 1 from his previous marriage. i would like to appeal to this 44yr.old woman to quit this claims thus messing up the grieved moments of the legal family.... just shut up pls as you are not helping the situation...pls be considerate of the family's feelings!
god bless..... :
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Do private operators tend to use the same, or is your 1.25 typical?
I´m homebased on a short turf (3323ft LDA), so we could go in there at 1,43 at reasonable weights (we actually use 1,44 for wet runways), but not or only with a few drops of fuel at 1,67. There are aircraft based there that can´t use factors at all.
Only accident we had since 10 years or so was a commercial turboprop...
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You "special pilot" have taken so much from us and from so many others. I for one do not need the investigation reports, I already know.
One has to be careful not to prematurely judge from what we seem to 'know', based on own perceptions or information that is publicized. But:
- it is a known fact that this airplane (which I used to fly some time ago) does not do particularly well to or from short runways and at low speeds. Any airplane needs a knowing hand, but the X can be an unforgiving beast. So, the choice of going into EDFE with it can be quite justifiably questioned. I'm confident the BFU will look into this.
- the X seems to be attractive for certain 'owner-pilots', appealing to their massive ego of owning and handling one of the fastest civilian birds in the sky. Some of these individuals even opt for the winglet-upgrade, to make their airplane even faster...
There are other airplanes available on the market which comfortably can transport the same load as the X, but can be operated to an airfield like EDFE with much more peace of mind. But that is apparently not their main objective.
- I personally had the 'privilege' of supervising some of this kind of pilots - one of whom residing not far away from this particular accident scene and another one more to the East. In short words: scary!
As long as authorities look the other way and TREs sign off their LPCs, this kind of 'aviators' will continue getting others into trouble, I'm afraid. And: they are liable to ruin the reputation of private / business aviation.
Not letting that happen should be one of pprune's agendas!
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@lostourlovedone
unfortunately the country I'm from (Germany, where the accident occured) blocked the video for copyright issues (music used) so I am unable to watch it. I am so sorry for your loss. {hugs}
unfortunately the country I'm from (Germany, where the accident occured) blocked the video for copyright issues (music used) so I am unable to watch it. I am so sorry for your loss. {hugs}
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CFMU position datas found on german Forum
17:47:59;12/03/01 17:47:43;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;494523N 0093111E;80;Continuing;7655;339;288 59'43'';;;AA86642649;;
17:50:58;12/03/01 17:50:46;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495251N 0091424E;50;Continuing;7655;259;298 59'54'';;;AA86642649;;
17:53:58;12/03/01 17:53:48;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495610N 0085620E;30;Continuing;7655;240;282 59'49'';;;AA86642649;;
17:56:59;12/03/01 17:56:20;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495752N 0084215E;7;Continuing;7655;219;263 59'45'';;;AA86642649;;
Source:
h ttp://forum.airliners.de/index.php?showtopic=51175&view=findpost&p=612222
17:50:58;12/03/01 17:50:46;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495251N 0091424E;50;Continuing;7655;259;298 59'54'';;;AA86642649;;
17:53:58;12/03/01 17:53:48;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495610N 0085620E;30;Continuing;7655;240;282 59'49'';;;AA86642649;;
17:56:59;12/03/01 17:56:20;0;0;098;001;N288CX;LOWL;EDFE;12/03/01 17:00:00;495752N 0084215E;7;Continuing;7655;219;263 59'45'';;;AA86642649;;
Source:
h ttp://forum.airliners.de/index.php?showtopic=51175&view=findpost&p=612222
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Update from the german investigators [13mar2012]
Source
According to the district attorney, 3 out of 5 victims have been identified as of today:
1. A 52-year-old german business man, resident of Las Vegas (PIC)
2. An austrian businessman (PAX)
3. A 43-year-old german woman working in the management of the owners company (PAX)
The other 2 victims have not been positively identified yet.
@lostourlovedone
i really think you should keep those private details in the family. To disclose them here is certainly not reverent.
Source
According to the district attorney, 3 out of 5 victims have been identified as of today:
1. A 52-year-old german business man, resident of Las Vegas (PIC)
2. An austrian businessman (PAX)
3. A 43-year-old german woman working in the management of the owners company (PAX)
The other 2 victims have not been positively identified yet.
@lostourlovedone
i really think you should keep those private details in the family. To disclose them here is certainly not reverent.
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i really think you should keep those private details in the family. To disclose them here is certainly not reverent.
On the other hand I can now understand better why this copilot stayed with the company even if he thougt the flying was dangerous. Five children from two wives must really generate an economic pressure that most of us can't even imagine. I hope the investigators will consider that as a possible contributing factor.
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S, no need to apologize. You felt a need to say something and that's ok. At least most of the speculating has stopped.
@janeczku, that's just a press release and nothing "official". I'd be very careful in claiming it's actually from an official source.
@janeczku, that's just a press release and nothing "official". I'd be very careful in claiming it's actually from an official source.
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The press release was from the prosecutor's office (Staatsanwaltschaft) in Darmstadt, so it was official. Also, the owner's and PIC's name has already been in the textile trade press.
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any more information?
Has there been any more news re crash investigation? This thread dropped off 2 weeks ago. I am here because sometimes there are credible information and alternative theories in forums like this other than what may be available in traditional sources. I am Jon Jose's mother, both grieving and searching for answers.
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searchingforanswers, my condolences, I can´t really imagine how you must feel...
In Germany, the BFU - Büro für Unfalluntersuchung - Air Accident Investigation Bureau - is the competent that has to deal with the investigation of this horrible accident.
You will find their homepage/contact under:
BFU Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung BFU - About us - BFU
There is nothing on the accident yet.
The investigation will most likely take years as you might already know. Even a interim report will not show up quick I think.
To the best of my knowledge (and business aviation is a fairly small group here) no new evidence has been found so far. I do fly a very similar aircraft, the Citation Sovereign (same cockpit basically) and I do know the airfield relatively well. If there are questions you wanna ask me, you are most welcome to do so per PN preferably (bear in mind I´m definately no expert in investigating air accidents, just a pilot...)
In Germany, the BFU - Büro für Unfalluntersuchung - Air Accident Investigation Bureau - is the competent that has to deal with the investigation of this horrible accident.
You will find their homepage/contact under:
BFU Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung BFU - About us - BFU
There is nothing on the accident yet.
The investigation will most likely take years as you might already know. Even a interim report will not show up quick I think.
To the best of my knowledge (and business aviation is a fairly small group here) no new evidence has been found so far. I do fly a very similar aircraft, the Citation Sovereign (same cockpit basically) and I do know the airfield relatively well. If there are questions you wanna ask me, you are most welcome to do so per PN preferably (bear in mind I´m definately no expert in investigating air accidents, just a pilot...)
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Thank you, "his dudeness", for your sympathy and offering to share your perspective on the accident. It's been difficult.
I checked the BFU site and obviously it's too early to see anything there on Jon's accident. Short of an interim report, would the investigation be open enough for me to inquire into progress? By the way, I saw a report on the 2009 King Air crash and was confused to see the report issue date of July 2009, yet the crash occurred in Dec, 2009? Also, you suggested to communicate "per PN." What does that mean? Thank you.
I checked the BFU site and obviously it's too early to see anything there on Jon's accident. Short of an interim report, would the investigation be open enough for me to inquire into progress? By the way, I saw a report on the 2009 King Air crash and was confused to see the report issue date of July 2009, yet the crash occurred in Dec, 2009? Also, you suggested to communicate "per PN." What does that mean? Thank you.
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"His dudeness," thank you. It's been rough.
I thought I posted a response but don't see it in the thread. I did take a look at the BFU website and read the report on the 2009 King Air crash. How do I inquire into the progress of the BFU investigation? What's your theory? What does "per PN" mean?
I thought I posted a response but don't see it in the thread. I did take a look at the BFU website and read the report on the 2009 King Air crash. How do I inquire into the progress of the BFU investigation? What's your theory? What does "per PN" mean?
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You`re most welcome.
PN is my mistake, its the German acronym for PM - personal message. Sorry.
Well, on the inquiry...I doubt that there is a mechanism/law that allows you to do so. However, I´d try to seek contact directly with them through the contact details on their website. I was in a class held by one of the BFUs investigators two weeks ago and he seemed to be a fairly nice guy.
They will surely not give you any details if you can´t prove who you are, but they will be able tell you how this could be done. I´m not an expert in this field and MAYBE there is something in the law preventing them to disclose details early on...one path that springs to mind is btw to ask the US embassy in Germany to assist you.
Contact Us | United States Diplomatic Mission to Germany
If you want to call them, our time zone is UTC +2,(with DST effective now) I would think the best chances to reach them will be between 0800 to 1600 local time. Thats 0600 to 1400 UTC.
PN is my mistake, its the German acronym for PM - personal message. Sorry.
Well, on the inquiry...I doubt that there is a mechanism/law that allows you to do so. However, I´d try to seek contact directly with them through the contact details on their website. I was in a class held by one of the BFUs investigators two weeks ago and he seemed to be a fairly nice guy.
They will surely not give you any details if you can´t prove who you are, but they will be able tell you how this could be done. I´m not an expert in this field and MAYBE there is something in the law preventing them to disclose details early on...one path that springs to mind is btw to ask the US embassy in Germany to assist you.
Contact Us | United States Diplomatic Mission to Germany
If you want to call them, our time zone is UTC +2,(with DST effective now) I would think the best chances to reach them will be between 0800 to 1600 local time. Thats 0600 to 1400 UTC.
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@searchingforanswers
you possibly read the date wrong, since it's all in German. Here's the proper report, posted in November 2011:
Beech accident December 2009
That shows you how long it can take before the reports are finished. Of course there is already a lot of speculation, but until every single piece of the aircraft is studied for possible technical problems, it can take months before a final report can be published.
It's a difficult time for you and your's, I'm sure, making it hard to be patient. Sorry I can't help you any further.
you possibly read the date wrong, since it's all in German. Here's the proper report, posted in November 2011:
Beech accident December 2009
That shows you how long it can take before the reports are finished. Of course there is already a lot of speculation, but until every single piece of the aircraft is studied for possible technical problems, it can take months before a final report can be published.
It's a difficult time for you and your's, I'm sure, making it hard to be patient. Sorry I can't help you any further.
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Thank you, Hisdudeness, for the guidance. I do understand that investigations of this nature take long. I will try to go the routes you suggested. Also, will go via PN next time