Citation 750 down in Egelsbach.
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Condolences to Jon's mum
Although I only briefly met Jon a couple of times, he had a very warm personality. My condolences to you and your family. As an instructor pilot, this crash is very frustrating to me.
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My condolences also
I offer my condolences to Jon's family. I regret horribly not making sure more people knew about the owner/captain tendencies. I was former copilot for him also before this plane. Some still think jon should have done more, but I can say you can be very limited in the actions especially since the captain was prone to changing configurations of aircraft at last minutes and a copilot would have their hands full and that low leaves very little room for error and correction much less taking over the plane from a determined capatin. The "captain" was known for taking visual before having the airport in sight. Arguing with controllers, flying early in the morning after a night of heavy drinking, inappropriate changes in aircraft configuration on approaches, rarely even do a preflight of the aircraft, and a very much single pilot attitude person. His opinion was all these cessna business jets should be single pilot operations.
I left, and I'm sorry Jon was unable to change jobs sooner. I know mutual friends were trying hard and are heartbroken by this event as am I.
I left, and I'm sorry Jon was unable to change jobs sooner. I know mutual friends were trying hard and are heartbroken by this event as am I.
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Please, accept my condolences.
This accident has been commented a lot here in Brazil and the pilots feel sorry for the situation.
My respects,
Sydy
This accident has been commented a lot here in Brazil and the pilots feel sorry for the situation.
My respects,
Sydy
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So if I am to understand that the guy flying was the owner, it might explain some things.
Part timers that decide to fly their plane to the scene of the accident has a proud and illustrious history.
We can talk all day long about loss and condolences, but consider the people in back that trusted the pilots with their lives.
Part timers that decide to fly their plane to the scene of the accident has a proud and illustrious history.
We can talk all day long about loss and condolences, but consider the people in back that trusted the pilots with their lives.
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He was no part timer pilot, just arrogant. Lots of hours Etc. but he could never leave his work or problems outside of the cockpit. If he was in a good mood I could do no wrong, if he had a bad day I could do no right. I have a list of situations ... But it's too late.
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The Citation X has EGPWS that must have warned the pilots about the inappropriate flight envelope in relation to the terrain.
Lostourlovedone, thoughts and prayers are with you. This is so very sad!
Hawker750,
Dont blame PrivateOps for what happened in this accident. This could just as well have happened in a commercial biz jet ops. As a matter of fact many commercial airline accidents have happened - that should not have happened.
As much as there are probably more suspicius PrivateOps as opposed to suspicius AirlineOps - you can not solely blame PrivateOps for what happened here.
Thx.
K
Dont blame PrivateOps for what happened in this accident. This could just as well have happened in a commercial biz jet ops. As a matter of fact many commercial airline accidents have happened - that should not have happened.
As much as there are probably more suspicius PrivateOps as opposed to suspicius AirlineOps - you can not solely blame PrivateOps for what happened here.
Thx.
K
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+1
H750 bit inappropriate in my opinion, there's captains flying public transport with worse attitudes than evidently this guy.
One accident does not a problem make
Anyway back on topic, FDRs & CVR's been recovered?
H750 bit inappropriate in my opinion, there's captains flying public transport with worse attitudes than evidently this guy.
One accident does not a problem make
Anyway back on topic, FDRs & CVR's been recovered?
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I thought the 750 would have more runway requirement? Can anyone who flies these things commercially tell me if you would be able to make the figures stack up for a 750 into Egelsbach?
I know this isn't the place for the Commercia vs Private argument, but lets just head it off at the pass with this simple question and agree not to mention it again once we know the answer.
Phil
I know this isn't the place for the Commercia vs Private argument, but lets just head it off at the pass with this simple question and agree not to mention it again once we know the answer.
Phil
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Not knowing the 750 - but if previous LDA are correct of 1166m (3825ft) then for a non factored LDR, Cessna are saying 3400ft MLW ISA S/L.
So, not knowing any other factors, it should be able to be within (technical) limits.
Hope the regular AOC/Private protagonists fight their corner away from here.
Condolences.
So, not knowing any other factors, it should be able to be within (technical) limits.
Hope the regular AOC/Private protagonists fight their corner away from here.
Condolences.
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What has the runway length required to do with an CFIT?
?
If you need to know that, look it up here:
http://textron.vo.llnwd.net/o25/CES/...on/x/x_fpg.pdf
If he'd used a factor of 1,25 (as we do with our C680) they airplane could have weighted 28.000 lbs WITHOUT a tailwind component to fit into the 1166 mtr of LDA
Still I think this part of the discussion is sort of irrelevant... why go onto a VFR only field in night and wx starting to go bad in the first place? Have a look at the map and youīll see EDFE is a tricky place with all the obstacles around and the rising terrain to the east. I sometimes went there in KingAirs, Bravos and CJs, never liked it one bit in less than perfect wx.
Went there in a C680 and a few times in a CL300, ONLY in good wx. My peers wanted me to go there a few times ...told em I will decide when approaching the field and the WX is to my liking and it is DAYTIME. We went to EDDF then...
If the wx was below minima, heīd broke an existing law. So having another law stating the exact same thing does change exactly what???
If not, he did not break a rule. So?
Or do you want to impose higher minima for pvt ops?
BTW, you do know what the N in front of the Callsign means, donīt you? Can't see the EU regulating that register.
You do realize that from now on I will slag every friggin accident in the oh-so-safe EU-OPS world in your face....like the Premier 1 fellows in LSZS or the organ transplant flight at a very foggy Brum...
Actually I wonīt, cause people like you canīt be changed. Have it your way. Enjoy. Forbid flying, hence there will be no flying accidents.
Over and out.
?
If you need to know that, look it up here:
http://textron.vo.llnwd.net/o25/CES/...on/x/x_fpg.pdf
If he'd used a factor of 1,25 (as we do with our C680) they airplane could have weighted 28.000 lbs WITHOUT a tailwind component to fit into the 1166 mtr of LDA
Still I think this part of the discussion is sort of irrelevant... why go onto a VFR only field in night and wx starting to go bad in the first place? Have a look at the map and youīll see EDFE is a tricky place with all the obstacles around and the rising terrain to the east. I sometimes went there in KingAirs, Bravos and CJs, never liked it one bit in less than perfect wx.
Went there in a C680 and a few times in a CL300, ONLY in good wx. My peers wanted me to go there a few times ...told em I will decide when approaching the field and the WX is to my liking and it is DAYTIME. We went to EDDF then...
A very sad scene but I am guessing that this will be the final nail in the cofffin for the private ops guys who keep yelling that they can self regulate.
If not, he did not break a rule. So?
Or do you want to impose higher minima for pvt ops?
BTW, you do know what the N in front of the Callsign means, donīt you? Can't see the EU regulating that register.
You do realize that from now on I will slag every friggin accident in the oh-so-safe EU-OPS world in your face....like the Premier 1 fellows in LSZS or the organ transplant flight at a very foggy Brum...
Actually I wonīt, cause people like you canīt be changed. Have it your way. Enjoy. Forbid flying, hence there will be no flying accidents.
Over and out.
Last edited by His dudeness; 6th Mar 2012 at 17:04.
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I hope hawker750 is wrong. Hard cases make bad laws, and this was not a case to be generalised to "private ops". It sounds like a very unfortunate case of an owner/pilot who did not have a good attitude intersecting with Frankfurt's lack of good options.
Having said that, it does show how an AOC operation or a well-run private/corporate operation adhering to a well-written operations manual, with good oversight from strong, accountable management willing to say "no" to owners does give a massive safety advantage - and I don't think many AOC operators or good private ops would have sent a jet into EDFE in those conditions, let alone a Citation X.
Isn't landing factor 1.43 (only able to use 70% of available runway)? So if unfactored LDR is over 1000m a C750 could not have gone in public-transport even using the full 1400m runway length. However there are other factors in play here. Operations Manuals for AOC operators (and I presume reputable private ops) should have strict criteria for cancellation of IFR, and for descent below MSA when not on a published instrument approach.
With no instrument approach Egelsbach is also a cat B airport even for types able to operate full weight from the runway. That brings in a a briefing for the crew, and probably criteria decided on in the cold light of day by someone who knows he could be in court if the worst happens, having signed Form 4 to take responsibility for every flight.
Criteria for approach will vary from operator to operator it is true, but restrictions can be put in place such as weather minima and specific visual reference requirements tighter than usual ops manual criteria if the operator feels Egelsbach is especially difficult, which having been there in a Seneca I can assure you it would be for a jet. Equally importantly the briefing can be reviewed in light of awful accidents like this one; ours certainly is being.
Let us recognise what can be done to make operations into airports like EDFE safer. That is only possible if we look at best practice and acknowledge it, and in this case I would argue it starts with factors that would be required in an AOC operation but are not mandatory for others. However it is also in factors that are inherent to charter flights but not to many private flights, especially this one - in a charter the crew answer to company, not to the passenger.
Having said that, it does show how an AOC operation or a well-run private/corporate operation adhering to a well-written operations manual, with good oversight from strong, accountable management willing to say "no" to owners does give a massive safety advantage - and I don't think many AOC operators or good private ops would have sent a jet into EDFE in those conditions, let alone a Citation X.
Isn't landing factor 1.43 (only able to use 70% of available runway)? So if unfactored LDR is over 1000m a C750 could not have gone in public-transport even using the full 1400m runway length. However there are other factors in play here. Operations Manuals for AOC operators (and I presume reputable private ops) should have strict criteria for cancellation of IFR, and for descent below MSA when not on a published instrument approach.
With no instrument approach Egelsbach is also a cat B airport even for types able to operate full weight from the runway. That brings in a a briefing for the crew, and probably criteria decided on in the cold light of day by someone who knows he could be in court if the worst happens, having signed Form 4 to take responsibility for every flight.
Criteria for approach will vary from operator to operator it is true, but restrictions can be put in place such as weather minima and specific visual reference requirements tighter than usual ops manual criteria if the operator feels Egelsbach is especially difficult, which having been there in a Seneca I can assure you it would be for a jet. Equally importantly the briefing can be reviewed in light of awful accidents like this one; ours certainly is being.
Let us recognise what can be done to make operations into airports like EDFE safer. That is only possible if we look at best practice and acknowledge it, and in this case I would argue it starts with factors that would be required in an AOC operation but are not mandatory for others. However it is also in factors that are inherent to charter flights but not to many private flights, especially this one - in a charter the crew answer to company, not to the passenger.
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And heartfelt condolences to the Copilot's family as well.
You can't avoid mistakes completely, let alone correct errors of others when there's this authority gradient present in the cockpit.
If you are going to die it doesn't automatically imply you did something on purpose or even that you did something lightheartedly. It can happen to people who feel responsible for others. I learned that the hard, sad way.
The only thing I really hate about people (and pilots specifically) is when they're becoming bold and asking for trouble. After all readings, seems that's what happened here with the owner / captain. But then again, I didn't know him.
You can't avoid mistakes completely, let alone correct errors of others when there's this authority gradient present in the cockpit.
If you are going to die it doesn't automatically imply you did something on purpose or even that you did something lightheartedly. It can happen to people who feel responsible for others. I learned that the hard, sad way.
The only thing I really hate about people (and pilots specifically) is when they're becoming bold and asking for trouble. After all readings, seems that's what happened here with the owner / captain. But then again, I didn't know him.