Dassault sued over Falcon 900 accident

[Piper_Driver]

Pacific Coast Business Times - $60M sought in business jet accident

Issues with misleading information in the flight manual and training materials contributing to an aborted takeoff and runway overrun.

[Treetopflyer]

“He had been told that if he set pitch stabilizer trim setting anywhere in the green band, he’d be fine”

For any weight / CG combination? And he believed it? Great airmanship...

[JACQUOUILLE]

Well the trim green band is a setting for a takeoff trim in relation to current CG to maintain V2 after an engine failure. The green band has graduation in relation with CG so just setting the the trim anywhere in the green band without considering the CG is a bit of a suicide action . that's my 2 cents ...

[NuName]

I have had exactly the same scenario described by the pilot, it was long after my type rating that I found myself on the stops barreling down the runway with no rotation, thank god it was a long one, just as I considered an abort the nose lifted and away we went. This was definately not adressed during my training. Full fuel gives a forward c of g that needs quite a significant nose up trim setting.

[Johnny Redd]

Can confirm that sim training just taught me to look at each of the three trims (Rudder/Aileron/Pitch). The Call is 0 / 0 / 6 meaning the mid points of each setting.
Others I know have also been taught that at light weights trim the elevator to be more nose down which makes sense.

I do remember that it was said in class that apparently, prior to this accident the only flight manual that had the table to calculate a pitch trim position was the UK one, where the good ole CAA were alone in insisting on it prior to certification..............

[Pilocol]

F-900 Elev. Trim.

5 years on the plane ... 2000+ hours on it ...
T/O from 33.000lbs to 45.600lbs ... all weights, all temps, all loadings.
As Johnny Redd Says.

The Call is 0 / 0 / 6 meaning the mid points of each setting.

has always ... repeat ALWAYS got me out of the Runway, and this is what I learned from FSI, year after year, after year .....

Do not call me to testify on this law sue ... I will nail the capt arse to the dining room chair for the rest of his carrier ...

Sorry, for the outburst, but it really p1sses me off when someone tries to take it on the plane when their abilities to fly it leave a lot to be said ...

Keep it safe.

[hawker750]

Elev-trim
Excuse my ignorance because never flown the 900, many others yes, so why didn't the captain just wheel a bit of nose up trim when he found it nose heavy instead of panicking? Is there something on the 900 that I do not know about like elevators falling off after the pre flight check to cause his concern?
I remember in 1970 taking off from the short x runway at CIA in a VC10 when at rotate nothing happened, the captain yeld at me to help him pull it off. We cleared the trees between the end of the runway and the beach by inches. If we had stopped we would have been on the beach. It turned out that the tail plane position indicator had failed and we had the wrong setting. My point is that what mind set convinces a pilot that an aerolane suddenly becomes "unflyable" with no reason. My view is that Dassault should sue the pilot for damaging one of their beautiful aeroplanes

[haughtney1]

The 900 AFM quite clearly states that there can be up to a 2 second delay between the application of elevator input and the commencement of rotation with a forward C of G.
I've been on the jet for a year or so and have operated at MTOW on a number of flights at pretty much the forward C of G limits....and never had an issue.

[falconer1]

the big Falcons,

not unlike other airplanes have a very powerful stabilizer..

given the huge difference in required trim settings between light and heavy weights for such aircraft, the charts are in every QRH and AFM, it does make a huge difference where your trim is set for take-off..

everybody operating the type should be familiar with that fact and it is well known..and it is in the FAA approved AFM and loading manual..(has to be there by regulations..)

maybe some people still think, that just because you can barely load most bizjets and also the Falcon "out of CG limits" that the required trim settings for a given weight and CG are of secondary importance, which is huge mistake..

can't believe that an experienced and qualified crew does not know the importance of correct trims for take-off..

then again, guess if some people can sue a fast food chain for zillions of bucks in the US, just because the coffee was as hot as advertised and they burnt themselves, that some flyfolks think they can sue a manufacturer for not producing a fool proof plane..

beats me..

take-off trims are vital, even and especially also on such well designed planes as the Falcon 900/900EX series, that have, by their nature, such a wide weight range as any other long range jets too, for that matter..

and, should some SIM instructors not having emphasized the fact, or, worse, should have distributed the wrong dope on that issue, well that's another problem..

but then again, smart crews would never believe it, if such bull... is told at training centers..

[falconer1]

or, let me spin that further..

stuff happens at times, and it can happen to all of us..

it should not, but it can..

but then again, why would you want to put publicity on your own shortcomings in such an event, by blaming others...

guess, I'm too old fashioned for that, don't understand that..

[falconer1]

for those interested in the numbers

on the F900EX the take-off trim setting versus CG position goes in a pretty linear fashion from

-7°30 at 14% MAC to -4°30 at 31%MAC..

now, the change in degrees on the stab trim in absolute numbers may seem to be small, but in reality every half degree stab setting makes a huge difference with that powerful stab, and in extremis will make the difference whether the bird rotates normally or not...especially, as in this case obviously, when heavy and fwd CG...which is the norm when heavy due to the fuel moments in the center ( fuselage) tank group..

[falconer1]

pretty much the same story,

albeit with a luckier out come..

fairly recent with a B737..

"Overlooked Trim led to 737's post V1 abort"..

trim in the permissible (i.r. green band) so no take-off config warning, but not correct setting for CG

Overlooked trim led to 737's post-V1 abort

[Scratch Pad]

Enjoying yourself here falconer? You do know you can include more than one point per post?

[falconer1]

No, not really Scratch Pad,

not enjoying, but have to admit, that I like Falcons..and all other planes for that matter..

and fortunately also in that case only some metal had been bent...

just do not get that stupid liability biz in the US, which is completely unnecessary, and having say a lawyer that there was an "anomaly" with an airplane's design and literature, just because a bird does not want to lift off properly with the wrong trims set...gimme a break...

well, that says all about the sorry state of such "legal cases"..

I mean it's just ridiculous, right???

So that was my last post on this issue

[NuName]

Well, look at all the pontificating I confess I am not a fan of all things French but I love Falcons, 4,200 hours on them 2,400 on the 50/900. The airplane does all that is asked of it providing the pilot does all that's required. The problem is, when one pay's a large sum of money to get what one believe's to be the ultimate in zero flight time training and something as fundemental as the reluctance of the aircraft to rotate in certain circumstaces is not addressed, it is unforgivable. It is not just a case of overpowering the elevator, it is easy to pull back to the stops, it is simply that the dammed thing will not respond to pilot input unless it is trimmed correctly. If you have not experienced it, it is a bit like when you hit the brakes in your car and the pedal falls to the floor, you feel like you have just accelerated in a dramatic fashion. When your thundering down the runway at gross, and the end is in sight, one could be forgiven for opting to not get airborne if, even for a fraction of a second, it seems that the flight controls are not responding. And why, one thinks, did the CAA find it necessary to ammend the flight manual.

[hawker750]

So the CAA insisted on ammending the flight manuals, good old CAA, in that case why did not the FAA do the same? If the the crew/operator of this Falcon want to sue someone surely it should be the certificating authority of the country of registration, in this case the FAA. I guess the manufacturer is a softer option. I do not think that they have a hope in hell because Dassault did not certifiacte the plane in the US they just presented a plane to the FAA for certification. If the FAA certificated an unsafe aircraft they are the culpable party

[falconer1]

sorry Hawker 750,

first braking my rules not to comment anymore on this thread,

but second

Hawker 750 wrote:

I guess the manufacturer is a softer option. I do not think that they have a hope in hell because Dassault did not certifiacte the plane in the US they just presented a plane to the FAA for certification. If the FAA certificated an unsafe aircraft they are the culpable party

No, Dassault is not a SOFT target for some lawyers.. it is a hard target because Dassault has got money...

try to sue the FAA.... ever tried that ???

Point is, the F900 / EX family like all the other Falcons are excellent birds with a proven safety record, that is hard to beat...

If some folks in the front end do not follow the most basic procedures for stab trim settings... it is neither Dassault's not the FAA's fault.

[con-pilot]

If some folks in the front end do not follow the most basic procedures for stab trim settings... it is neither Dassault's not the FAA's fault.

I have to agree with that, no matter what aircraft. I have about a 1,000 hours in the 50, 50EX and 900EX. Very simply put, they are great aircraft.

(Although they could have put more leg room in the cockpit. Especially with the 900EX. )

[NuName]

I think it must be said that, for some pilots coming to the Falcon 900 from other types, they may be used to a situation where if the nose trim has been set innapropriately, a little muscle power will quite adequately resolve the immediate problem. Not so with the Falcon 900 where the stab trim changes the whole operating range. All I am sying here is this should be addressed in the training phase, they sure spend loads of time (and your money) discussing many other things that have much less opportunity to hurt you.