Self sponsored Type Rating and job offers
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SFLY
Firstly, you say you have tried the 'dont pay for a rating' for the last 18 months and that it has gotten you no where, well that might be something to do with an economic downturn and recession, not because you dont have a rating.
Secondly, why dont you stay at your current job on your turbo-prop till the market picks up, surely it is foolish to walk away from a job, pay thousands of afrodollars for a rating on the off chance that you think it may help you get a new job on a jet, sounds like a massive gamble to me.
All seems a little odd.
Firstly, you say you have tried the 'dont pay for a rating' for the last 18 months and that it has gotten you no where, well that might be something to do with an economic downturn and recession, not because you dont have a rating.
Secondly, why dont you stay at your current job on your turbo-prop till the market picks up, surely it is foolish to walk away from a job, pay thousands of afrodollars for a rating on the off chance that you think it may help you get a new job on a jet, sounds like a massive gamble to me.
All seems a little odd.
Last edited by south coast; 27th May 2009 at 17:28.
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CargoOne. We're having a decent conversation here so be a good chap and mind your language.
Smallfry, what have you been told about glue sniffing?
Whoever 'they' are that won't give me a job remain a mystery as I'm not applying. Wouldn't work anywhere that would employ me anyway 
Smallfry, what have you been told about glue sniffing?
Whoever 'they' are that won't give me a job remain a mystery as I'm not applying. Wouldn't work anywhere that would employ me anyway
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Flintsone
When you submit a resume, it does not state whether you received that training through a past employer or you paid for it yourself. As far as your statement " is that many in this branch of the industry still regard a SSTR as wrong", you are speaking for yourself and anybody else you can find to agree with you. There are also a list of long standing experienced pilots who when put to the question , would self sponsor a rating if it got them the job, because that was the type of job it was at the time, and perhaps combined with their current economic situation.\, left them only two options I remember there was a question from a Pruner who asked what type of rating he should get, and received many responses, your comment was how all that information was going to do him any good. The question he asked was what type of rating would work, Not your opinion on whether he should get the type or NOT!
Yes, decades ago, nobody really paid for the own type rating, and having the rating with out the experience is not much more of a bonus, and no I do not like the idea of paying for my own rating or re-currency, but sometimes that is all that is left to do to get your foot in the door toward that badly needed aviation position. If it works, then it works, and arguing whether it is right, or brings down the industry standards, is a waste of time. Hay pal take a look at the Industry standards these days, and tell me how much further in the ditch it is going to go.
Did I spell all this OK MATE!
When you submit a resume, it does not state whether you received that training through a past employer or you paid for it yourself. As far as your statement " is that many in this branch of the industry still regard a SSTR as wrong", you are speaking for yourself and anybody else you can find to agree with you. There are also a list of long standing experienced pilots who when put to the question , would self sponsor a rating if it got them the job, because that was the type of job it was at the time, and perhaps combined with their current economic situation.\, left them only two options I remember there was a question from a Pruner who asked what type of rating he should get, and received many responses, your comment was how all that information was going to do him any good. The question he asked was what type of rating would work, Not your opinion on whether he should get the type or NOT!
Yes, decades ago, nobody really paid for the own type rating, and having the rating with out the experience is not much more of a bonus, and no I do not like the idea of paying for my own rating or re-currency, but sometimes that is all that is left to do to get your foot in the door toward that badly needed aviation position. If it works, then it works, and arguing whether it is right, or brings down the industry standards, is a waste of time. Hay pal take a look at the Industry standards these days, and tell me how much further in the ditch it is going to go.
Did I spell all this OK MATE!
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South Coast,
18 months ago was well before the downturn...
As for your advice on not walking away from my turboprop job, please note that I'm on the ground since August 2007...
Thank you anyway.
18 months ago was well before the downturn...
As for your advice on not walking away from my turboprop job, please note that I'm on the ground since August 2007...
Thank you anyway.
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Self financed Type ratings
There are 2 issues here.
1/ The low time inexperienced pilot is unlikely to get a job by paying for his type
rating especially during a recession
2/ A 10,000 hour 604 pilot who pays for a G5 rating puts him self at an advantage if
he wants to fly a G5
This thread is not making this distinction
There are 2 issues here.
1/ The low time inexperienced pilot is unlikely to get a job by paying for his type
rating especially during a recession
2/ A 10,000 hour 604 pilot who pays for a G5 rating puts him self at an advantage if
he wants to fly a G5
This thread is not making this distinction
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Originally Posted by NZ X Man
When you submit a resume, it does not state whether you received that training through a past employer or you paid for it yourself.
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
you are speaking for yourself and anybody else you can find to agree with you.
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
There are also a list of long standing experienced pilots who when put to the question , would self sponsor a rating if it got them the job...
There are also many experienced pilots, several of whom have posted here, who say you should not pay for a type rating.
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
I remember there was a question from a Pruner who asked what type of rating he should get, and received many responses, your comment was how all that information was going to do him any good. The question he asked was what type of rating would work, Not your opinion on whether he should get the type or NOT!
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
....arguing whether it is right, or brings down the industry standards, is a waste of time.
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
take a look at the Industry standards these days, and tell me how much further in the ditch it is going to go.
Seeing as you asked the question your spelling is fine. Your punctuation however is spasmodic, woefully inaccurate and way below par which made sections of your post almost impossible to understand. Before you get angry about that too remember, you asked for my opinion. Mate.
(Emoticon added for hilarious comedic effect).
Last edited by Flintstone; 27th May 2009 at 23:49.
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I have a feeling you guys only option is to agree to disagree... 
The problem is, that there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides, even from an operators standpoint!
The following happened to a US company a friend works for (for confidentiality reasons I leave the specific types out):
- Co-Pilot (it escapes me how many hours he had - I believe fairly low) got hired, was sent to FS for a TR in a heavy jet - he left the company 4 weeks(!) later.
- Crew (experienced) got hired, already typed in the aircraft. I don't know how, but they bulls**ted the owner into taking his heavy jet elsewhere - that too happened only a few weeks after they started (and stupid me thought the industry is too small to pull a stunt like that
).
Now you could argue that the employer must be reason - I assure you that is not the case.
All of the above certainly does not address the moral issues raised here... I'm with SFLY on this one - he needs to support his family. Even if he claims, that out of sheer loyalty to his fellow pilots he never thought about self funding his TR to get better chances in 18 month - in reality or imaginary - I applaud him that he was apparently able to explain that to his wife and kids!
My wife would probably be less understanding to starve for the greater good
The problem is, that there are advantages and disadvantages to both sides, even from an operators standpoint!
The following happened to a US company a friend works for (for confidentiality reasons I leave the specific types out):
- Co-Pilot (it escapes me how many hours he had - I believe fairly low) got hired, was sent to FS for a TR in a heavy jet - he left the company 4 weeks(!) later.
- Crew (experienced) got hired, already typed in the aircraft. I don't know how, but they bulls**ted the owner into taking his heavy jet elsewhere - that too happened only a few weeks after they started (and stupid me thought the industry is too small to pull a stunt like that
).Now you could argue that the employer must be reason - I assure you that is not the case.
All of the above certainly does not address the moral issues raised here... I'm with SFLY on this one - he needs to support his family. Even if he claims, that out of sheer loyalty to his fellow pilots he never thought about self funding his TR to get better chances in 18 month - in reality or imaginary - I applaud him that he was apparently able to explain that to his wife and kids!
My wife would probably be less understanding to starve for the greater good
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Did you ever see a plumber having to bring his own tools into a company? Or a nurse having to buy the beds for the patients first? Maybe we should start to pay even for the checkrides when employed or go further - pay for the seat you're sitting on to earn for a living ( as seen at Thompson if I remember right, the saving was a bit aten up by a hard landing inspection, see thread in rumours).
Paying for a typerating with 3000hr experience is either selling yourself below value or hiding something which may have lead you into serious trouble.
Most people I know say having experience on TPs (or piston twins) is the most valuable time you can get to improve your flying skills, improve cooperation and coordination with other crew members. You didn't gain your experience for nothing. By throwing away it's value ( your value) you would have.
Furtheron, getting a job isn't just about being qualified or not, is it? Who do you want to sit next to you in the future? The one that is qualified or the one that offered most in the betting? Can you be sure the guy who paid for his rating is being checked as thoroughly as someone who didn't? That may be the case with big operations, but would it in smaller companies? Who do you want to share the skies with? A mummy's boy who can afford to pay? That's what you suggest to almost every employer by buying your typerating and that's what already happens. T&C is a one way street in most cases.
Being the last on the list means being the first to be laid of. Who guarantees you a prosper future with a typerating in hand and a new job? Your employer already knows you were even paying for it, how far would they go ( would you go)?
If a car dealer came up to you and offered you a car, adding to expect big discounts, where will he end? He will make customers (employers) believe that quality (you) comes at a bargain price - making every economy obsolete. Will he be successfull in a short time?That's what just happens in Germany. Take a look at the market in a year.
Paying for a typerating with 3000hr experience is either selling yourself below value or hiding something which may have lead you into serious trouble.
Most people I know say having experience on TPs (or piston twins) is the most valuable time you can get to improve your flying skills, improve cooperation and coordination with other crew members. You didn't gain your experience for nothing. By throwing away it's value ( your value) you would have.
Furtheron, getting a job isn't just about being qualified or not, is it? Who do you want to sit next to you in the future? The one that is qualified or the one that offered most in the betting? Can you be sure the guy who paid for his rating is being checked as thoroughly as someone who didn't? That may be the case with big operations, but would it in smaller companies? Who do you want to share the skies with? A mummy's boy who can afford to pay? That's what you suggest to almost every employer by buying your typerating and that's what already happens. T&C is a one way street in most cases.
Being the last on the list means being the first to be laid of. Who guarantees you a prosper future with a typerating in hand and a new job? Your employer already knows you were even paying for it, how far would they go ( would you go)?
If a car dealer came up to you and offered you a car, adding to expect big discounts, where will he end? He will make customers (employers) believe that quality (you) comes at a bargain price - making every economy obsolete. Will he be successfull in a short time?That's what just happens in Germany. Take a look at the market in a year.
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Flintstone, I do not remember asking for your opinion on anything, and sorry I was not a former English teacher of boy scout troop leader. And I have not rolled over on aviation as of yet!
Anything else?
Anything else?
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plugster:
...imagine you apply as a freelancer for a new position, how does the new employer know how good you are, just because you took your TR with you from the previous one? I don't think that's a valid argument.
Who do you want to sit next to you in the future? The one that is qualified or the one that offered most in the betting? Can you be sure the guy who paid for his rating is being checked as thoroughly as someone who didn't?
Last edited by Phil77; 28th May 2009 at 14:26.
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After more than 36 years flying arround....
I read a lot of valuable things here coming from both sides, however by experience let me all tell you that doing a rating at any of the training centers that provide business jets ratings has ever impressed me and is of any value on your CV if you do not have descent experience on simular types and/or an overall longstanding experience in aviation.
All the people in this business know the sentence : Great, you are doing a perfect job..... and we all know why anybody hardly ever fails a rating, even if you crash the sim a couple of times while doing the training,...(just to make sure you know the answer: the training centers need to survive as well and the instructors want to keep their job as we do...)
If after you receive a type on your license and you have not been line trained in a descent company by descent line trainers, then I have to admit that I would never look at a low experience guy with just the rating only, however if the pilot has lot's of previous experience in other simular types, I will of course consider his CV if the market dictates me to do so. As today you can find typerated pilots with experience on almost any type, maybe a bit more difficult for the 550 and the Global express, I am convinced that even with a type rating and no hours on the type, it will be very hard to get a job if you have no friends in the industry...if on top of that you have no overall experience then let me say it is almost impossible and I would not waste my money on a typerating for the time being...maybe if and when the industry picks up again, it might be a solution, but do not forget : As long as there are type rated guys with experience on the a/c available on the market you will be the last one considered for the job, unless you have friends in the industry that hold the right post...but this could be the subject for another discussion on this forum...
Carpe diem....
All the people in this business know the sentence : Great, you are doing a perfect job..... and we all know why anybody hardly ever fails a rating, even if you crash the sim a couple of times while doing the training,...(just to make sure you know the answer: the training centers need to survive as well and the instructors want to keep their job as we do...)
If after you receive a type on your license and you have not been line trained in a descent company by descent line trainers, then I have to admit that I would never look at a low experience guy with just the rating only, however if the pilot has lot's of previous experience in other simular types, I will of course consider his CV if the market dictates me to do so. As today you can find typerated pilots with experience on almost any type, maybe a bit more difficult for the 550 and the Global express, I am convinced that even with a type rating and no hours on the type, it will be very hard to get a job if you have no friends in the industry...if on top of that you have no overall experience then let me say it is almost impossible and I would not waste my money on a typerating for the time being...maybe if and when the industry picks up again, it might be a solution, but do not forget : As long as there are type rated guys with experience on the a/c available on the market you will be the last one considered for the job, unless you have friends in the industry that hold the right post...but this could be the subject for another discussion on this forum...
Carpe diem....
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Shame this thread seems to have descended in a pissing contest between everyone and Flintstone. I have my own opinions and have made them clear.
hawker750 made a good distinction that seems to have been lost along the way in this thread, If you have 3000 hours of turboprop time in an aircraft that does not require a type rating, then getting a type on one (Turboprop) that does is a good move in my opinion. It consolidates your time and gives you better exposure to heavier aircraft of that ilk to move up to.
Where I think it is wrong is when someone who has 3000 hours turboprop time goes out and pays for an A320 type for example with no jet time, sheer waste of money if you ask me, 99% of companies will not hire you, now if you flew a C90 King Air for example for that 3000 hours and got a type on an ATR, then the previous turboprop time would work in your favour and you would have a great chance of moving up.
When it comes time to move up to say an A320 or 737, then you will have been exposed to the airline enviroment in all its glory and will know in advance what the flying is going to be like, the type of aircraft will be a second learning curve which should be easier because you will have the knowledge of how it is to be utilized in operation. There are companies that will help you down this path and yes, it does work quite well.
KW
hawker750 made a good distinction that seems to have been lost along the way in this thread, If you have 3000 hours of turboprop time in an aircraft that does not require a type rating, then getting a type on one (Turboprop) that does is a good move in my opinion. It consolidates your time and gives you better exposure to heavier aircraft of that ilk to move up to.
Where I think it is wrong is when someone who has 3000 hours turboprop time goes out and pays for an A320 type for example with no jet time, sheer waste of money if you ask me, 99% of companies will not hire you, now if you flew a C90 King Air for example for that 3000 hours and got a type on an ATR, then the previous turboprop time would work in your favour and you would have a great chance of moving up.
When it comes time to move up to say an A320 or 737, then you will have been exposed to the airline enviroment in all its glory and will know in advance what the flying is going to be like, the type of aircraft will be a second learning curve which should be easier because you will have the knowledge of how it is to be utilized in operation. There are companies that will help you down this path and yes, it does work quite well.
KW
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I am convinced that even with a type rating and no hours on the type, it will be very hard to get a job if you have no friends in the industry...if on top of that you have no overall experience then let me say it is almost impossible and I would not waste my money on a typerating for the time being...
Getting yourself known and liked.
Helping out where possible? until someone who "can" wants to help you and opens some doors.
Pace
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I second B-767 too. Although I can understand SFLY's sentiments and desperation, I think networking is the key.
I, for one, got my job because my boss has confidence in me, my abilities and loyalty, not necessary my vast amount of flight time; would buying myself a TR would have helped me getting that job? Absolutely not!
I just don't think if someone experience trouble getting a job for a long time, has researched the market and realized that getting that TR opens some doors, he should be chastised for putting his family before the greater good.
I, for one, got my job because my boss has confidence in me, my abilities and loyalty, not necessary my vast amount of flight time; would buying myself a TR would have helped me getting that job? Absolutely not!
I just don't think if someone experience trouble getting a job for a long time, has researched the market and realized that getting that TR opens some doors, he should be chastised for putting his family before the greater good.
Last edited by Phil77; 28th May 2009 at 16:20. Reason: typo
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My beef with people self funding type ratings is only down to the standard of the guys who get jobs because of a rich daddy!!! Quite frankly I cannot even comment on whether I would self fund as I am in no financial position to make that committment. What I will say though is I went to flight school with many different calibers of pilot ranging from excellent to downright dodgy at best (the kind of guys who would struggle at Mc Donalds). One such ex student after taking 3 and a half years to graduate, having to do all ATPLs again as they failed them all first time around, failed countless flight tests and had a terrible attitude has just bagged a 737 job after their father bought them a type rating!!! They are fling a 737 whilst myself who didnt have the money to self fund and passed everything first time is left flying small aircraft, hardly and hours and hardly an income to speak of. Its simple self sponsored type ratings lower the overall standard in the industry!!!
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...agreed, had a guy like that in flight school myself. On the other hand there is the professional, who previously earned that money, just wanting to level the playing field, because he was not so lucky getting out of his previous job with a popular TR.
A small point of order for somebody else who pointed out that a Plumber would not be expected to bring his own tools...not quite true sadly! Pretty much all tradsemen (in the UK anyway) have to buy their own tools.
T&C's in those occupations were always sh..
T&C's in those occupations were always sh..
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Hi,
my plumber will cost me 6000 Euro at least for a wheelchair friendly bathroom arrangement. Approx. 32hrs. WT. In GER nobody has to pay the expenses for the tools. A craftsman here would piss you in the pot if you were dare to ask him /her to pay /'selfsponsor' the f%$§tools. It's all about demand and supply.
The airline business is rotten from the bottom to the top folks.
In most cases you will start facing loads of depths with no way out in the near future. Imagine the cost of the TR alone. 30K for what ??? 737 how long will this bloody type be the favourite of your bullying/tossing management ? What's up when your shiny airline goes on it's knees / bancrupt due to credit crunch-missmanagement or pozi scheme? Will you get another jockey job pretty soon to pay the loans back ?
Where the hell do you guess your alternate career perspectives will be ? UAE - check the ME comments on EK, EY and the other regional trash.
Cathay P/swire F%&$§-once the dream employer- on payscale nbr 67854 -**** on it
US regionals-not worth to look after
Europe's famous LCC high pay suckers-forget it-(after/before tax and other expenses)
just my '2 hard earned cents'
ex craftman, ex skipper and economist
Blue skies
my plumber will cost me 6000 Euro at least for a wheelchair friendly bathroom arrangement. Approx. 32hrs. WT. In GER nobody has to pay the expenses for the tools. A craftsman here would piss you in the pot if you were dare to ask him /her to pay /'selfsponsor' the f%$§tools. It's all about demand and supply.
The airline business is rotten from the bottom to the top folks.
In most cases you will start facing loads of depths with no way out in the near future. Imagine the cost of the TR alone. 30K for what ??? 737 how long will this bloody type be the favourite of your bullying/tossing management ? What's up when your shiny airline goes on it's knees / bancrupt due to credit crunch-missmanagement or pozi scheme? Will you get another jockey job pretty soon to pay the loans back ?
Where the hell do you guess your alternate career perspectives will be ? UAE - check the ME comments on EK, EY and the other regional trash.
Cathay P/swire F%&$§-once the dream employer- on payscale nbr 67854 -**** on it
US regionals-not worth to look after
Europe's famous LCC high pay suckers-forget it-(after/before tax and other expenses)
just my '2 hard earned cents'
ex craftman, ex skipper and economist
Blue skies
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Originally Posted by NZ X Man
Flintstone, I do not remember asking for your opinion on anything...
Originally Posted by NZ X Man
Did I spell all this OK MATE!
Given your apparent confusion let's deal with the points one at a time. Where is this list of pilots you referred to?
Originally Posted by kwachon
..a pissing contest between everyone and Flintstone.
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Hey Flinty,
Great post(s), as usual you're right on the money. I was going to add my 2 cents worth but there was no point - you said it all
By the way NZ X MAN - where the hell is this list of pilots who agree with an SSTR? Its been asked for and needs to be produced or you'll lose credibility (whats left of it anyway
).
Ho Ho Ho
Great post(s), as usual you're right on the money. I was going to add my 2 cents worth but there was no point - you said it all
By the way NZ X MAN - where the hell is this list of pilots who agree with an SSTR? Its been asked for and needs to be produced or you'll lose credibility (whats left of it anyway
).Ho Ho Ho