costs of Jets

[Pace]

RadicalRabit.

You do not even have a PPL and are talking about flying a business jet and your partner from Blackpool to the south of france in all weather.

I have a co-pilot in the citations I fly. He has JAA and FAA Lincences, A JAA ATPL (Frozen soon to become unfrozen) an FAA CPL IR Multi with an SIC on citations he is a Cabair instructor and a very switched on guy. He has 1500 hrs with 600 in jets.

I suggested to him about doing a full type rating and flying the little citation 500 as a relief Captain to me with an experienced co-pilot.
He still does not feel ready or experienced enough to take that extra step.

How do you think with no licences at all that within 300 hrs you will be able to Captain a citation or complex turboprop, in all weaher around Europe.

I am not trying to be rude but it does come across as a bit naive.

My best advice is get an FAA PPL, then add a mullti and an IR, then do a citation SIC. Buy a share in a citation 2 or 1.

Employ a Captain, fly as a co-pilot. Change your SIC for a full rating then still fly but in the left seat but as a pretend Captain with the real one in the right seat.

In about five years you "may" have the qualifications and experience to get rid of the real Captain and take on an SIC yourself.

This is reality not cloud cuckoo land.
You have to be realstic on what you want to achieve and how to achieve that dream. At the moment your not.

I flew a guy in Seneca five single pilot. He held no licences and still doesnt but now flies quite nicely from the right. He achieves his dreams and is quite happy with that.

All the best

Pace

[radicalrabit]

reality check or demotivation?

One of the reasons for putting this post was to get this type of feedback.
Have been told that it ought to be possible to just train full time and treat every flight as training and 300 hours is enough when you are flying more or less every day for months on end. It doesnt stop there though does it as they say when you get past 1000 hours you realise how little you knew before.

Ofcourse I appreciate your views and experience and wouldnt consider flying anything single pilot until I have the ability AND SUFFICIENT TIME AND EXPERIENCE but that only comes by constant training and flying under viaried and challenging conditions with another pilot /instructor. I do intend to taylor my training to that specific aim though, and even going the atpl route for the extra experience and training even if it isnt required as a private pilot.

I am sure you put in one of your Pm's that the FAA and SIC route was a practical way forward and I have asked for some more information so I can follow that sound advice.

We still intend to evaluate several aircraft types and the training that is needed and if it takes a year or two. In the end I will be flying what ever it is myself.

The safety of those who will be flying with me is obviously my main concern and paying another pilot until I am ready is one of the costs of operating this we factored in from the outset.

I am impressed by the responses of so many pilots and all the help you have all given us and the fact that you bother to take the time to point us at the other people and agencies who can help us make progress.

[Squeegee Longtail]

0 - 300hrs on type may be enough to get from A to B in a Citation when everything is going well, but what about when it's not? The professionals do more than fly, they are constantly training and re-training, hang around airfields and other pilots, read flying related literature, live flying all the time. You don't, and doubt you want to.

I understand your desire to get hands-on, but leave the stress to a professional and fly right hand seat. You will be able to step straight off the other end and straight on to your boat (which should also be driven by a professional, to allow you to relax and have a gin and tonic).

If you disagree with the above, my personal choice with your budget would be a good late model Piper Meridian and accept that you may stop en route for fuel.

Good luck.

[radicalrabit]

presumptions here?

If I wanted to have a stress free life and be a passenger I would go Ryan air or who ever and buy a ticket!!!!!.

The plan is to work towards my ATPL, I just have no intention of flying commercially. I will get a pilot to fly with me, it seems like the responsible thing to do and You never stop learning or training and that doesnt just apply to pilots.

Have a few mates that flew Jet provosts Jaguars and Harriers but never had the luxury of someone holding their hand for 3 to 5 years. They did spend some part of every day flying though. And two of them got shot at quite frequently at one point which I ssomething you dont get on your average Citation trip.

My budget for training is £45k this year and next year is £120k and I will fly every damned minute I can with an instructor or safety pilot until I know I can cope with most things that lifes gremlins can conjour up. I am looking at doing some training here some in France some in America and some in Canada, and I think that will give me more than a little insight into the vagaries of the weather and the differences in international airspace.


We have looked at the PC 12 and TBM 700 but to be honest I like the idea of a Jet or a B200. (No I know a Cheyenne Ls400 is faster climbs higher uses less fuel, and I know that the Merlin III is wider and has greater TBO etc that the Jetstream32 is wider and more comfortable but... well they all have other issues dont they?)

And No I dont want a professional Skipper for the boat my brother is one ! And I have already arranged a three year training programme for someone to Manage that asset as well but thanks for your concern.

I dont see why people think being inexperienced goes hand in hand with being an idiot !

Thanks guys (in General) you are all a great help and given the unusual situation have been very tollerant of my lack of knowledge and understanding of aviation but I am learning !

[Pace]

No one has accused you of being an idiot. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and those of us who have been flying for many years realise how aeroplanes can bite. Even experienced pilots crash, take the tragic event in London a few weeks ago.

What I feel with you is that you are fumbling in the dark when you really need to have a realistic plan not only for your flying aspirations but also for the aircraft you need to fit your usual flight profile.

For that you need to start from the basis of what the usual mission profile will be. How many hours a year will you use ?Will those hours warrant owning your own aircraft? If you want to own your own aircraft outright do you need extra income from other sources.

While you maybe coming into money I dont get the impression that you will be mega rich in aviation terms and you dont want to blow the whole lot chasing a pipe dream.

My gut instintcs still tell me that a Citation 11 is your best option. One with a Branson Grosse weight mod and N reg.

FAA is your best way ahead mainly because of the intensive ground studies you will need to gain the correct licences to fly it through JAA

My gut instincts also tell me that you would be better sharing the aircraft and owning a third share and that you will need to budget for an experienced Captain for at least 3 years.

When I started flying 25 years ago I too had visions of using a plane like a car. I even had it in my mind that I could follow the roads at a 100 feet and that as soon as I had my PPL that was it I would be a fully fledged pilot.

Once I had achieved the PPL I very soon realised that it was a licence to start learning.

When you start to look at Jets flying in RVSM airspace at 7 miles a minute it takes many years of experience to make the right descisions and to be ahead of the game and the jet. It takes many years of experience to read weather and to make the right choices and it takes many years of experience to know when something is going wrong and to know what.

I am not trying to put you off but to be realistic in your purchase and flying aspirations. There are too many in aviation who are quite happy to tell you YES YES you can do anything. There are too many who will happily tell you all that, take your money, smile and leave you to pick up the pieces.

I am just sorting out the mess by such a purchase at the moment. Please be careful and not blinkered otherwise you will find the money you have come into dissapearing at a faster rate of kts than the jet you hope to fly.

And no I dont tell you what you want to hear which I am sure many are quite happy to but then I would not be doing you any favours.

Pace

[radicalrabit]

Pace

No it wasnt you implying I am an idtiot!

Just thinking out loud.....

As was pointed out that Citation II and related fixed costs runs at about £160,00 a year before its turned a wheel. You can charter a lot of jet for that kind of money and not have to worry about the flying.

The cost of fuel is a puppet to the vaguearies of the futures and commodities market at the moment and the dollar being as it is, the stock markets being as they are and the banks being unduely cautious on lending to the risky market, oil is coming into play as we have all seen.

Five year planning on aviation at the moment not to mention the training, the selection of aircraft and which register to keep it on and whos garden rules we want to abide by have made the situation no less difficult.

The logical step is for the moment not to get into the water untill we know where its going, but for us for our own reasons that isnt an option.
Leasing , wont work because I cant fly it . Leasing to fly (read travel) and then doing the training aside is another way round it obviously

BUT I WANT TO.....

I am reasonably certain we will do about 4-5 hours a week and 200 hours a year isnt enough to justify Jet ownership. It may well justify a share in one... but that would also mean it being available for me to use for several months while I get through the training and untill I get 300 hours in with at least 50 on type I cant get it insured.

Catch 22.

Buy something useful like a Hawker 700 and let someone else use it sub lease it operate it on their AOC or what ever has been suggested, then we have an aircraft when we want one. Woks fine for a corporate strategy but not for someone wanting to fly themselves.

I think for (because of) diversity of mission, cost , load, distances travelled and total costs over 5 years we probably need to avoid wasting money and buying in too much aeroplane. Does that make sense?

a PC 12 or a B200 turboprop would get us where we wanted to go , if not in the same level of comfort or style but it would mean joe bloggs here gets to fly it sooner and for longer per £ cost.

Now if someone was to utilise a B200 when we werent using it, which they cant with a PC12 as its non AOC able single engine, We may probably have a not perfect solution but one that is workable.

And 7 miles a minute seems like taking your car test one week then finding Lewis Hamiliton and saying "race ya?"

So point taken not a realistic to go flying jets with 1000 feet seperation at fl450 till I have a lot more skill.

So thanks to everyone for all their input.... Learned a hell of a lot this week.!!!!

[Flintstone]

Ok, I'll bite.

radical. Perhaps the reason people are somewhat prickly is that you wrote:

Then hire two pilots, unless they want to pay for the privilage (sic) of flying it to build up their hours and get the ATPL unfrozen?

On a professional pilot website? Any wonder the milk of human kindness dried up? If you were being ironic it might have helped to say so and avoid the subsequent unpleasantness.

I wouldn't accuse you of stupidity, naivete perhaps. Comparing yourself to your friends.....

Have a few mates that flew Jet provosts Jaguars and Harriers but never had the luxury of someone holding their hand for 3 to 5 years.

.......is either wilful stirring, a refusal to acknowledge the difference between being in a permanent (military) aviation environment or a refusal to do so. I doubt it's the first so you might want to take a step back and consider this point which others have made in earlier posts. Aviation by itself is a skill that needs to be kept current. Piloting a jet through some of the world's busiest airspace as an intermittent hobby is a recipe for disaster. After sixteen years, several flavours of ATPL and a number of jet type ratings I still notice a difference in my performance after a break of a couple of weeks.

In instructing circles there are several types of student one of which is the Successful Businessman. Used to getting their own way they'll often refuse to hear phrases like 'You cannot' and 'No'. Soon after the Beech Bonanza was introduced, a complex aircraft in it's class for the day, it was found that they were spearing into the ground with tedious regularity. Case studies showed that many of the pilots were, guess what? Successful professionals who were flying their own aircraft. The Bonanza became known as the Doctor/Lawyer Killer much, I fear, as will some of the new VLJ's which are already referred to within many training organisations as 'lawn darts'..

[Pace]

RadicalRabit

Your other option worth considering if you are doing this for the love of flying is to buy a Cirrus single engine piston. Then once you have a FAA PPL single IR you and your lady friend can fly to the south of france in your time and enjoy the flying.

With the cirrus you also have the reassurance of an inbuilt ballistic parachute system its modern and comfortable and fairly quick and would be a good option for the first few years.

Then when you are competant with that look for something faster and more complex

Pace

[radicalrabit]

To Flint

Ok
points noted ..appologies to the "professional pilots",

You seem to think that I have a desire to fly once in a blue moon and fly with less than the required amount of skill as implied by the Gibe at the arrogant and reckless authors of disaster you mentioned Doctors Dentists and the like.

I have been assured that by flying every day for what will be at least 11 months I wont be in the catagory of the part time pilot. That by flying in Canada America here in the UK and in France I will have a better level of development than many pilots get. Ok so I wont be flying for an Airline or Charter company air taxi or what ever but the differences really go beyond that .

With having two families 600 miles apart, other commitments that need me to be in two places at once, Flying is going to be a daily part of my life from here to and within France. ALSO I doubt I will fall into the catagory of the American arrogant Buisiness mind set professionals who go in for synchronised CFIT.

It seems not all pilots accept there is only one way to learn and some very experienced pilots have already offered to act as safety pilot for me once I have done the training and have the first 200 hours ME and instrument rating done. That for me I think is where the real learning will begin.

Actually both the Cheyenne and the B200 can be flown single pilot and on a PPL but I chose to go the CPL /ATPL route because I want the most training and best skills development I can afford.

Anyway...

Is it so hard to accept that you can be trained to fly outside the "normal" model and have professional tuition and support without having to remain tied to one particular training organisation or another, without having to fly commercially to gain daily flying experience? The only difference I can see is that in our model I get to decide where we fly not someone else who is paying the cost for the day.

At my age going into commercial aviation is a non starter and I wish I had this opportunity 30 years ago but went in to the forces instead..and well the rest is history .

I dont see me ever taking chances because I value my life and thoes of my kids as well and I dont see why a PPL shouldnt strive to have the same skills as a commercial jet pilot.

From what I have read so far, not that many PPLs rake up 200 to 300 hours a year flying time do they ? So What is wrong with flying your own aircraft. I think flying a Warrior or Cherokee from a small field to where we collect the B200 or what ever then flying that to where ever we need to go and after its back and put away, flying back home will be enough hours to stay current dont you ?

Sorry for the rant but people on here do seem to think "ppls" are some form of inferior species and cant mix it with the big boys.

[Squeegee Longtail]

RR

If you follow the same training route, get the same length of experience in the right hand seat with experienced guys in the left before taking command, and stay as current, then there's no reason you won't be as competent as the pros.

You seem driven by the urge to fly which is natural (to pilots, at least), and everyone out there wants to fly higher and faster once they have their wings. You are fortunate enough to be able to get pretty high and pretty fast in a short timescale, so the advice seems to be - be careful to do it properly.

Regarding the purchase - if it floats, flys or f***s - don't.

[18greens]

RR

The only reason to get an ATPL/CPL is to charge for your skills. (make money). It does not make you a better pilot.

A PPL can have just as much experience and be as professional as an ATPL except they did not sit in the CAAs classrooms learning about how many hosties a 747 needs.

I think a lot of the feedback you are getting is from people who know aviation is expensive and don't want you to waste your money. I'd rent a few jets and Kingairs and talk to the pilots and then do a PPL on a maggoty PA28 then do fractional ownership then I'd probably know enough about flying to either stay at home or buy the right tool for the job.

Good luck with your purchases whatever they may be. They sound exciting. Let us know what happens.

[Flintstone]

18 Greens You're kidding, right? Being trained to a CPL/ATPL standard does not make you a better pilot? Quick! Tell the CAA they've got it all wrong! We only need to study to PPL level (a couple of times over to justify the expense) and off we go to work.


radical My apologies if I blurred my points into each other, I'll clarify.

The Bonanza was quoted as a way of showing what happens when people with the money to buy 'complex' aircraft do so without sufficient training and experience to handle them. My concern is that history is littered with examples of this and I believe that the new crop of VLJs will see a repeat.

The Successful Businessman was a covert warning, hint, call it what you will. People used to succeeding and getting their own way often won't listen. It's simple, right? If that guy can do it so can I. After all I built this business from nothing and have XXXX people working for me.......you get the idea. The pure flying and type rating course might be relatively easy (I use the term 'easy' loosely in regard to the TR) but when things go wrong the altitudes and speeds at which jets operate mean there is the potential for things to get worse very, very quickly. Experience and currency can often make the difference between making it home in one piece, and not.

[Pace]

>The only reason to get an ATPL/CPL is to charge for your skills. (make money). It does not make you a better pilot.<

RadicalRabit.

I have never in any of my posts suggested you need to get a CPL/ATP
As you dont have any flying qualifications but have this big plan to be commanding a jet I have put in some words of caution.

I have never met you / you may have all the abilities to make a natural instrument pilot but again you may not have those abilities.

I know some PPLs who make great VFR pilots but cannot hack it on instruments.

On instrument work you need to have a brain that can take in a lot of visual information and have the ability to multi task. You also need to have good coordination and spatial awareness.

Some of us have that some do not its just a trick of nature. To some its natural, to some it has to be worked at and to others they never achieve it.

Because you have NO flight time and seem to change the aircraft you want to buy with the wind I have added some words of caution. I was even beggining to wonder whether you would come up with buying a 737 or 747 the varieties that were coming through this thread?

I have e mailed you spoken on the phone for no personal gain. As I have said I do not know you and you may have natural abilities which will zoom you through to achieving your goals.

On the flip side aviation is full of sharks who will tell you what you want to hear remove your money and go running to the bank leaving you to pick up the pieces.

At the end of the day its your money or rather your girlfriends money and I wish you all the best in achieving your aims and if you do you will be able to post here that you have and I for one will be very happy for you at that.

Pace

[nasa]

Interesting Thread. In my experience there are two types of people who purchase aircraft. The Primary categories are those who WANT to and those that NEED to. There are sub-categories that define the wanna be from the can be, I would suggest that you Radical fit into WANT to. Reading your post above, I get the feeling that you want a BBJ and the associated cost but will only pay for a Skipper. If you want to purchase an aircraft to chase hours for yourself, then purchase what you can afford, that will do the job you want to do, or stick with Ryan Air as you alluded to.

If you are having problems determining the cost and performance of particular aircraft, then PM me and I'll give you the name of a trustworthy and competent Broker in the UK to deal with.

BTW, PPL/ATP/CPL whatever your piece of paper says, don't mean Jack Sh!t without 30 odd years and 15000+ hours under your belt, and even then, there are those I wouldn't even fly the Warrior to the KA airfield with.

Sorry if the foregoing appears a little blunt, however, if you approached me with the view to purchasing an aircraft and gave me the above details, I would recomend you fly Ryan Air and go hire a 152/172/182/210/B58 or the like and come back and see me when you have racked up 2000+ hours.


Second Place Is First Place For Losers

[radicalrabit]

Pace

Thanks Pace , and no I wasnt gaving a dig at you either.
Sorry if it came accross that way to any of you by the way.

On Monday we are going to go and have a look at a B200 and later on in the month we are looking at C550 and a Beech Jet400.

Once we have a full deck of cards we will know where to go but I would thank you all for your input because it really has helped and also created contacts with other people through your contacts.

Have any of you got any suggestions as what to NOT buy if there is a specific design operational niggle or unexpected cost trap we might fall into? or Any fit that we should particularly go after that makes the flying task either easier or faster to learn from? Raisbeck mods Gremlin 530 (just joking) (Noted your suggestions Pace re Citation Mods thanks)
Someone just offered me a 73 learjet 25 but we declined that.

Thanks also for the guys with the B350 and $4m fit but thats too much for us to be splashing out.

Sorry but the helicopter option just doesnt fit with our mission profile either.

How do some engines run to TBO at 3600 hours and other run to 8000 hours?

Is the Blackhawk mod worth spending all that money on?

the more answers we get the more questions we seem to create.

Anyway Thanks again , still find PPrune the next best thing to going to the pub of an evening ...

oh and any training agencies that have a really bad reputation we ought to steer away from? (pm me please to avoid upsetting people)

[flyingfemme]

RR - forgive me if it's a bit personal....but you seem to be far too concerned with what's "comfortable" and "stylish".

Actually a B200 is far more "comfortable" than an entry-level biz-jet and style means different things to different people. Is there a reason you dislike the old "rotary speed brake"?

The job you have mentioned (UK to Med) can be done in an Aztec with a reasonable avionics fit. Be a little more "stylish" and use a Baron. The total cost (purchase and running) could be less than a year of biz-jet operation. A year of that would teach you a lot - about operations, flying and your real needs; as opposed to your want for a fashion statement.

The time difference per trip is fairly unimportant for those distances. Especially if you were really thinking about an inital hop to somewhere suitable for keeping a jet.

[radicalrabit]

FF

Ok I am awake now... just read your comments. (didnt realise that so many pilots were members of insomniacs 'r us)

I was saying that a B200 might not be as "posh" for want of a better word as a jet but considering all of what we want to do , and those who have helped me most on here know more of what that entails, Will be as versatile as we need. Now, given all the wealth of advice, comments both positive and negative, I am reasonably certain that $1.8m will get us what we want.

I don't know if you were trying to have a dig but no these smaller aircraft you listed in your last post will not do the job as the range or lift (load) is going to vary. But you were quite correct on your initial opinion as to what we need rather than what we might want.

I am reasonably confident now of doing my training both here and abroad, of having the correctly equipped aircraft with another pilot with me until I get beyond 500 hours, and will hit that within 11 months. A daily rate of under 3 hours per day.
But having said all that I am still going to go and look at The Beech 400 and Citation 550 incase there is something else I have missed or that we can do to make things easier or more cost efficient.

PACE, Chili AND EVERYONE ELSE.

Thanks for a really educational week and look forward to having a beer with you in due course.

Just dying of impatience now....back to the books and wizz-wheel

[flyingfemme]

500 hours? Have you spoken to any insurers? I don't think that is terribly realistic to be let out on your own in a B200.............

As for payload and range; you've been a little coy about those so it's tough to be specific.

[CL300]

Beech 400 is not ideal for a first Jet, too complicated too much tests, a true 2 crew aircraft, flies too fast and has not a good roll control. (spoilerons)

First jet for decades IS the Citation 500/SP/501....may be 550/551 everything else whatever trendy, pretty, shiny or else has to be avoided for the first circa 2500 hours TT.

Now, you will enjoy a great piece of equipment, with minimal systems, you can even fly in RVSM airspace and scare the S... out of you when encountering CAT, or start to realize that these things DO NOT slow down...

But with a Vref around 90 kts (with you heavy payload) and if yuo are lucky Antiskid, otherwise it is skid warning only, you will be able to operate from +54°C to minus I do not remember..lol.

DO NOT accept competency checks over the counter, that kills; go to the sim, twice a year, three times a year, it is fun and you will learn...everything else is a job.

Jets are like a mistress, they cost a lot, you ride them once in a while, but you have to take care of them all year long, under very high monitoring conditions.

Have fun...

[radicalrabit]

MondayTea Time

Just arrived home from a really informative day at Gamston in the company of a B200.

It was really useful getting together and seeing it up close and personal . Bigger on the outside and smaller on the inside than I expected which just goes to show you cant beleive photographs.


VERY PRODUCTIVE WEEK and some very constructive criticisme...