small jet down in London
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Aircraft equipment
Only based on the assumption that this was VP-BGE, a 1975 Citation 500 (S/No. 500-0287), then the aircraft may have had a CVR but as a private aircraft of that age/weight, did not need to have one installed. It had TAWS (EGPWS) back in 2006, but no FDR (again not obligatory). A low time machine only on about 190-200 hrs a year over its 33 years life and a similar number of landings/cycles per annum - so more or less averaged hour long flights.
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Very sad and RIP those poor souls.
Pure speculation but I am current on type. One of the biggest gotchas on this aircraft are the two forward baggage flaps.
If one is not properly latched and opens, the other blows open too sending contents through both engines. It happened last year in the States with fatal consequences.
I have absolutely no clue if this happened here, but a timely reminder of the importance of the "Golden Lap" after everyone is on board to check security of forward latches...and indeed everything else.
Pure speculation but I am current on type. One of the biggest gotchas on this aircraft are the two forward baggage flaps.
If one is not properly latched and opens, the other blows open too sending contents through both engines. It happened last year in the States with fatal consequences.
I have absolutely no clue if this happened here, but a timely reminder of the importance of the "Golden Lap" after everyone is on board to check security of forward latches...and indeed everything else.
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The aircraft suffered severe engine vibration. Normally if this were on one engine only there would be no problem to shut it down and continue for a single engine approach and landing. However the BMI 737 accident at Kegworth showed that engine vibrations aren't that simple to diagnose (as to which engine was at fault). The pilot would have had little time after takeoff to diagnose the fault and may well have had insufficient thinking time to analyse his problem.
However, in the event of a single-engine failure, with both engines near the centreline, and with severe vibration in the cockpit, and already in close proximity to the ground, I can imagine that making a diagnosis of what was happening may have been very difficult for the crew.
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just putiing my two penneth in like everyone else:-
Not wishing to prejudge the fine work of the AAIB, but I would be surprised if the the possibility of a birdstrike isn't being considered, nobody else on this thread seems to have mentioned this yet. Does Biggin have a bird problem?
RIP
Not wishing to prejudge the fine work of the AAIB, but I would be surprised if the the possibility of a birdstrike isn't being considered, nobody else on this thread seems to have mentioned this yet. Does Biggin have a bird problem?
RIP
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blablablafly,
I agree with you and is why I had to repost my question because it was in danger of getting swamped by other posts. Thanks for the replies to it. I am sure the AAIB will come up with useful information for current Citation pilots but pprune can help by answers to my question of the type posted by Avioactive and the Sheikh.
Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. An FDR would be especially useful in the case of this accident to determine the exact chronological order of the causes and effects of the engine vibration, rather than just the evidence available at the scene of the accident.
I agree with you and is why I had to repost my question because it was in danger of getting swamped by other posts. Thanks for the replies to it. I am sure the AAIB will come up with useful information for current Citation pilots but pprune can help by answers to my question of the type posted by Avioactive and the Sheikh.
Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight. An FDR would be especially useful in the case of this accident to determine the exact chronological order of the causes and effects of the engine vibration, rather than just the evidence available at the scene of the accident.
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Cvr/fdr
Indeed. The appalling crash at Milan Linate a few years ago which involved a Citation left the investigators with a major problem. They knew what the pilots did but not why, which is often as important.
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FDR and CVRs...
Flap 5...why only public-transport? Surely the lives of those on private-category flights are worth as much.... Also, if we are to continue learning from such accidents, we should be learning from ALL of them.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers, bm
Just my thoughts.
Cheers, bm
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Not sure if this has already been said and I've missed it, but the name of the one of the pilots has now been released on Sky News.
Edit: All five people onboard have now been named. RIP
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311188,00.htm
Edit: All five people onboard have now been named. RIP
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311188,00.htm
Last edited by PoloJamie; 31st Mar 2008 at 13:27.
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BBC 24 news anchor to (alleged) industry expert:" Can you tell us exactly what the rules are that relate to building houses near airports"
Expert on BBC:" Erm yes well there are clear rules that set this out and erm strictly govern how close one can build to an airport"
I hope the BBC didn't pay him because his opinion was pretty worthless.
RIP to the five lost, it could have been so much worse.
SB
Expert on BBC:" Erm yes well there are clear rules that set this out and erm strictly govern how close one can build to an airport"
I hope the BBC didn't pay him because his opinion was pretty worthless.
RIP to the five lost, it could have been so much worse.
SB
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Time to ignore idiot "eye-witnesses" ??
Just announced that Citation carried five MALES... 2 MALE pilots and three MALE pax. So much for the eye-witness who "saw" the "female" passenger. "I'll never forget her face" he said. Right. 
bm
bm
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Country of registration
NTSB are reporting the aircraft is Bahamas registered http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2008/080330.html, but speculation is on a Bermudan aircraft involved. Which is correct?
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Maybe now the CAA will look at making CVR's and a simplified FDR mandatory on all Public Transport aircraft including smaller business jets - regardless of weight.
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BBC are saying that no black boxs were carried. All on board have been named now. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7321997.stm
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NTSB are reporting the aircraft is Bahamas registered http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2008/080330.html, but speculation is on a Bermudan aircraft involved. Which is correct?
Someone mentioned the Citation crash in Oklahoma City (KPWA) earlier this month. The indications are pretty strong that was a birdstrike right after takeoff. That aeroplane had a CVR but it wasn't operating. Preliminary report here.
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Citation 510 crash at Farnborough, Kent.
Really sad to have another unfortunate event again in the UK airspace. This time, those on board were not so lucky.
Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
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Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
Bromley police Chief Superintendent Charles Griggs said: "The site itself is relatively dangerous.
Wonder why with 8 fire engines and 40 firemen, it still took 3 hours to contain the Blaze and access the wreckage?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
How effiecient was the emergency response?
