Dodgy Netjets contract/paying arrangements is bringing NJE pilots in deep trouble
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Dodgy Netjets contract/paying arrangements is bringing NJE pilots in deep trouble
I have allways been affraid to post things before but what has happened to me and a number of other pilots has to be known to collegues and to those who want to join.
Currently I am under investigation by the tax department for what they say is a unauthorized workagreement contruction.
Most Netjets pilots have a Isle of Man contract even though the company is registered in Portugal. This to avoid paying social benefits.
Most pilots are being payed via the cayman Islands, this is also done to hide traces.
However, myself and collegues in other European countries are getting more and more into trouble and having to hire lawyers to start defending themselves.
As no tax is being paid on the Isle of Man, and the pilot is living in the EU, and there are no traces of social benefits being paid, several departments are trying to raise those taxes in the country where the pilots is living.
However it should be Netjets paying these benefits and not the employee.
Therefore we are investigating the possiblillities to start a lawcase against Netjets to get a legal European Contract with social benefits paid and with a pension arrangement and medical insurance. Everything by the book.
We will also be questioning Unions in Europe to assist.
In the meantime we advise newcomers Not to join until there is certainty about being able to get a legal contract that is not bringing you into trouble.
For myself I have decided to leave and am looking for another job, because I don't want to be involved anymore with this kind of a operation.
Sadly I will leave many fine collegues behind.
Currently I am under investigation by the tax department for what they say is a unauthorized workagreement contruction.
Most Netjets pilots have a Isle of Man contract even though the company is registered in Portugal. This to avoid paying social benefits.
Most pilots are being payed via the cayman Islands, this is also done to hide traces.
However, myself and collegues in other European countries are getting more and more into trouble and having to hire lawyers to start defending themselves.
As no tax is being paid on the Isle of Man, and the pilot is living in the EU, and there are no traces of social benefits being paid, several departments are trying to raise those taxes in the country where the pilots is living.
However it should be Netjets paying these benefits and not the employee.
Therefore we are investigating the possiblillities to start a lawcase against Netjets to get a legal European Contract with social benefits paid and with a pension arrangement and medical insurance. Everything by the book.
We will also be questioning Unions in Europe to assist.
In the meantime we advise newcomers Not to join until there is certainty about being able to get a legal contract that is not bringing you into trouble.
For myself I have decided to leave and am looking for another job, because I don't want to be involved anymore with this kind of a operation.
Sadly I will leave many fine collegues behind.
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You have to pay tax somewhere...
When I worked for Netjets I classed as a self employed contractor for tax reasons. I declared my earnings and after some deductions for running my 'business' I paid my tax and social security. All above board and very tax efficient, I made less money when they bought in the PAYE.
The problem is that some people don't even try to pay tax and then they get caught out. Hawkerpilot, I think someone at interview or indoc told you that your tax affairs were yours to sort out, we all have to pay some tax and I don't think your lawyers will get Netjets to pay your tax and social contributions for you.
Good luck with the job hunt...
When I worked for Netjets I classed as a self employed contractor for tax reasons. I declared my earnings and after some deductions for running my 'business' I paid my tax and social security. All above board and very tax efficient, I made less money when they bought in the PAYE.
The problem is that some people don't even try to pay tax and then they get caught out. Hawkerpilot, I think someone at interview or indoc told you that your tax affairs were yours to sort out, we all have to pay some tax and I don't think your lawyers will get Netjets to pay your tax and social contributions for you.
Good luck with the job hunt...
Hi netjets,
it is not about tax, but only about social benefits. Luckily I am living in a country where I do not need to pay social insurance etc. but only tax. These systems don't work anymore anyways and I rather use that money for my own future.
it is not about tax, but only about social benefits. Luckily I am living in a country where I do not need to pay social insurance etc. but only tax. These systems don't work anymore anyways and I rather use that money for my own future.
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I do not know where you are living, however,
you are not a little kid income taxes HAVE to be paid somewhere ! )
This is what everybody knows now I will suggest that you should continue this discussion in the Netjets private forum, since even if you are angry about things, these should not be brought into public forums.
On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric.
you are not a little kid income taxes HAVE to be paid somewhere ! )
This is what everybody knows now I will suggest that you should continue this discussion in the Netjets private forum, since even if you are angry about things, these should not be brought into public forums.
On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric.
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why shouldnt it be discussed in the open...?
the point is, if you deduct tax off the nje salary, it is pretty average in comparison to other operators in the industry.
i know there are only 2 things for sure in this life, we die and we have to pay taxes, and mine our taken at source, so no problem for me.
the point is, if you deduct tax off the nje salary, it is pretty average in comparison to other operators in the industry.
i know there are only 2 things for sure in this life, we die and we have to pay taxes, and mine our taken at source, so no problem for me.
Hello???? Did ANYONE here get the point????? It is about the social security stuff, this is NOT any part of a tax!
Of course everyone is paying the normal income tax, that is clear to "hawkerpilot", too. And no-one should pay more than income tax, the social security stuff should be voluntary.
Of course everyone is paying the normal income tax, that is clear to "hawkerpilot", too. And no-one should pay more than income tax, the social security stuff should be voluntary.
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Originally Posted by CL300
This is what everybody knows now I will suggest that you should continue this discussion in the Netjets private forum, since even if you are angry about things, these should not be brought into public forums.
On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric.
On top of this you are leaving the company, it is sellfish and irresponsible to throw this in public.. Glad that you are leaving, Team spirit is not with you or it is highly egocentric.
Oh puurrlleeeaaase.
The private crew forum is the best thing that ever happened to NJE mangement. If the public could see some of the things written in there their hair would curl.
CL300. Why should this not be discussed in public? Are you saying that anyone thinking of joining the company should not be allowed to know about this? Why? What is your motive?
Nobody would dispute that we all must pay our taxes somewhere but as EatMyShorts says this is not about tax. As you have mentioned it though what are your feelings toward an employer who gladly releases information to a tax department about an employee without that employees knowledge and when the company were not legally obliged to do so? This should tell you (again) how much NJE cares about it's crew and their wellbeing.
If indeed you are a NJE employee I can only assume that you are relatively new there. Let's see how you feel in a year after you have been on the receiving end for a while.
On the other hand if you do not work for NJE I would suggest you know little about the subject.
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Eat my Shorts got the point CL300!! I know I have to pay income tax and that is what I do.The Point made by the various tax departments is (and my collegues from different countries have had similar reactions) is the social security stuff. As Netjets does not contribute to social security/benefits it is a illegal contract , being based in a European country. The only solution would be if we all register as independant company and send an declaration. But that is not happening and THAT is the point. Netjets do as if they give you a normal employercontract but the whole thing is a scam. The taxdepartment say that IF you have an employercontract, working in the EU for a EU based company, you have tp pay social benefits within the EU. The employee pays a part and the Employer pays another part. The return to you is social security, pension and PROTECTION.
Because we pilots have accepted an illegal contract(you are supposed to know the law right?) we are also being accused and under investigation. That is the problem.
Netjets should give us a normal emplyeecontract and yes, it is going to cost them money but then he they fly european aircraft and have their offices in europe so they have to follow the european rules.
Because we pilots have accepted an illegal contract(you are supposed to know the law right?) we are also being accused and under investigation. That is the problem.
Netjets should give us a normal emplyeecontract and yes, it is going to cost them money but then he they fly european aircraft and have their offices in europe so they have to follow the european rules.
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I would like to make a correction on my first quote"Sadly I leave many fine collegues behind".
I should be "sadly I leave many fine collegues behind except the Cl300 and the people like him.
So if I understand it correctly CL300 we should keep al these things hidden from the public? And by discussing this we are "egocentric" ?
This is not the 18th century any more.
We want to discuss things to get things improved, and we should do it in a constructive discussion with pro's and contra's. Everybody is entitled to participate but don't start your first reaction accussing someone you don't even know.
I never spoke up. Now I do and many will follow. I am not afraid anymore about being fired because I will be going soon, though if they change things I might decide to say, but I doubt it being allready in this company for a few years and knowing their promises...
I should be "sadly I leave many fine collegues behind except the Cl300 and the people like him.
So if I understand it correctly CL300 we should keep al these things hidden from the public? And by discussing this we are "egocentric" ?
This is not the 18th century any more.
We want to discuss things to get things improved, and we should do it in a constructive discussion with pro's and contra's. Everybody is entitled to participate but don't start your first reaction accussing someone you don't even know.
I never spoke up. Now I do and many will follow. I am not afraid anymore about being fired because I will be going soon, though if they change things I might decide to say, but I doubt it being allready in this company for a few years and knowing their promises...
Last edited by hawkerpilot; 25th Aug 2006 at 19:46.
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Originally Posted by Smeagel
Oh puurrlleeeaaase.
The private crew forum is the best thing that ever happened to NJE mangement. If the public could see some of the things written in there their hair would curl.
CL300. Why should this not be discussed in public? Are you saying that anyone thinking of joining the company should not be allowed to know about this? Why? What is your motive?
Nobody would dispute that we all must pay our taxes somewhere but as EatMyShorts says this is not about tax. As you have mentioned it though what are your feelings toward an employer who gladly releases information to a tax department about an employee without that employees knowledge and when the company were not legally obliged to do so? This should tell you (again) how much NJE cares about it's crew and their wellbeing.
If indeed you are a NJE employee I can only assume that you are relatively new there. Let's see how you feel in a year after you have been on the receiving end for a while.
On the other hand if you do not work for NJE I would suggest you know little about the subject.
The private crew forum is the best thing that ever happened to NJE mangement. If the public could see some of the things written in there their hair would curl.
CL300. Why should this not be discussed in public? Are you saying that anyone thinking of joining the company should not be allowed to know about this? Why? What is your motive?
Nobody would dispute that we all must pay our taxes somewhere but as EatMyShorts says this is not about tax. As you have mentioned it though what are your feelings toward an employer who gladly releases information to a tax department about an employee without that employees knowledge and when the company were not legally obliged to do so? This should tell you (again) how much NJE cares about it's crew and their wellbeing.
If indeed you are a NJE employee I can only assume that you are relatively new there. Let's see how you feel in a year after you have been on the receiving end for a while.
On the other hand if you do not work for NJE I would suggest you know little about the subject.
The contract is ****, yes, It is legal only under the british juridiction under the legal ground of "External services". For all the other countries it is not. Well then you have the option to walk away after you had it in your hands after the indoc no ?
You chose to sign this contract for the good and the worse, it is an adhesion contract, which is legal in some countries, not quite in others.
I did work for a lot of companies during my career, most of the anglo-american operator are indeed using this type of contract and sometimes with no social coverage like BUPA or the likes and guess what ? It is still legal....
The Netjets contract as it is may not suits everybody; and I will tell more even a full European contract with all the protections would not suit everybody either.. All these retired people from big airlines and some armed forces whom are using netjets pay as pocket money ?
Today's Netjets contract is the best because :
first it is not going to change soon except if something major occurs (look in jetblasters what it is said about it),
second in case of a dispute the so called 'employee' will win win hands down at least in 5 countries in Europe. ( I'm sorry my previous pilots where coming only from those countries and I do not know the specifics of the other 20 europeans countries).
I hope that you are having fun where you are now, I hope that people whom are dupping **** on their actual company in public wil leave soon; because all what is written in pprune should be told face to face with the management. ANYONE with such a concern should not fly before everything is clarified for them and that they accepted it or resigned from their position.
If those people do not have the courage to speak up their problems have an easy go in poluting the atmosphere, and even if crew representation is necessary, it is designed to be a buffer between all the discussion and especially this one.
FYI, I know Netjets for more than 10 years and not only NTA, I was (my company) a shareholder of Netjets, and now guess what ? I'm flying in Europe for NTA !! I know both sides, the 'customer' contract, the pilot contract both sides, a 'touch' of management in LIS and the like, I have my opinion and my analysis of the last 25 years of corporate flying
The door is wide open for people who do not want to stay, for the others, fight and express your opinion within the company and not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.
Fly safe.
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Originally Posted by CL300
LoL....
Originally Posted by CL300
The contract is ****, yes,
Originally Posted by CL300
Well then you have the option to walk away after you had it in your hands after the indoc no ?
Originally Posted by CL300
You chose to sign this contract for the good and the worse,
Originally Posted by CL300
Today's Netjets contract is the best because......
Originally Posted by CL300
first it is not going to change soon except if something major occurs
Originally Posted by CL300
because all what is written in pprune should be told face to face with the management.
Originally Posted by CL300
even if crew representation is necessary, it is designed to be a buffer between all the discussion and especially this one.
Who are you to tell people where they can and cannot discuss these issues? May I suggest that if you dislike the subject simply ignore it.
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Dear smeagel,
when quoting me , you highlighted the essence of Netjets contract : it is the best because it is worthless, ****ty with no grounds for someone ex-UK or ex-portugal. This is where this company is outstanding.
If you are a kind of old timer ex-BA , cathay, airfrance or the like, that you have 5 years to kill while flying, why would you bother ? AN "illegal" contract is beautiful.
If you are 1500 hours PA34 low timer with a lot of debt to clear after having paid you CPL/IR/ME etc.. Why would you bother after you had reach the minimum total for selections at the above mentionned airlines ?
If you are an ex-Airforce guy with pension and benefits why would you bother either ?
Let's face it, people with some experience, wife and kids at school are bothered and this is human being, but for a start they should not had a go for Netjets if so bothered, or turn 180° and do something else, you have 6 months probation in your contract, use it ! even so the previous contract were 3 years contract use the term if you are not happy ! If one's stays it is because he/she is happy full stop !
I did not sign the "deed of variation" because that was not why I chose Netjets for, nethertheless I have material to defend myself if **** happens. They know it, I know it and everybody lives together happily
I am an IPA member, and I did update my position to tell them I was working for NTA/NETJETS/ whatever. This is not the point, the social part of the contract could be better or far worse, I have dozen of friend working on contracts for various operators who do not have the advantages that Netjets can provide, nethertheless there is room for improvement and I'm daily working towards this, and I still say that a public forum is not the best place to deal with it. The best hidden secrets are sometimes the one's that work best !
Cheers !
when quoting me , you highlighted the essence of Netjets contract : it is the best because it is worthless, ****ty with no grounds for someone ex-UK or ex-portugal. This is where this company is outstanding.
If you are a kind of old timer ex-BA , cathay, airfrance or the like, that you have 5 years to kill while flying, why would you bother ? AN "illegal" contract is beautiful.
If you are 1500 hours PA34 low timer with a lot of debt to clear after having paid you CPL/IR/ME etc.. Why would you bother after you had reach the minimum total for selections at the above mentionned airlines ?
If you are an ex-Airforce guy with pension and benefits why would you bother either ?
Let's face it, people with some experience, wife and kids at school are bothered and this is human being, but for a start they should not had a go for Netjets if so bothered, or turn 180° and do something else, you have 6 months probation in your contract, use it ! even so the previous contract were 3 years contract use the term if you are not happy ! If one's stays it is because he/she is happy full stop !
I did not sign the "deed of variation" because that was not why I chose Netjets for, nethertheless I have material to defend myself if **** happens. They know it, I know it and everybody lives together happily
I am an IPA member, and I did update my position to tell them I was working for NTA/NETJETS/ whatever. This is not the point, the social part of the contract could be better or far worse, I have dozen of friend working on contracts for various operators who do not have the advantages that Netjets can provide, nethertheless there is room for improvement and I'm daily working towards this, and I still say that a public forum is not the best place to deal with it. The best hidden secrets are sometimes the one's that work best !
Cheers !
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not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.
Fly safe.[/QUOTE]
REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!
I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....
Fly safe.[/QUOTE]
REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!
I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....
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I was told during my interview that I would have to sort my own tax and social contributions. This was 2 Months before I resigned my previous position and 3 1/2 before Indoc. From someone who joined in January, I know that NJE now send the contract for review before Indoc. Nothing hidden or secretive there.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?
Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.
I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.
Erik.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?
Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.
I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.
Erik.
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Originally Posted by susoal
not in a public and/or private forum which is read only by an handfull of people and not the proper ones regularly.
Fly safe
REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!
I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....
Fly safe
REALLY....and I am assuming you consider yourself a proper one, ehh!!!!
I would recommend you no to talk about people you do not know, and I am sure you do not now many poeple on this forum....We all have different backgrounds and much to your surprise, A lot of people here might be more qualified to talk than you are.....
Last edited by CL300; 25th Aug 2006 at 16:34.
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Originally Posted by erikv
I was told during my interview that I would have to sort my own tax and social contributions. This was 2 Months before I resigned my previous position and 3 1/2 before Indoc. From someone who joined in January, I know that NJE now send the contract for review before Indoc. Nothing hidden or secretive there.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?
Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.
I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.
Erik.
Yes, the salary comes from the Cayman Islands, but the moment it arrives in your bank account it is visible. No real traces to hide there, don't you think?
Here in NL, you are still required to pay tax but you are exempt of social security. However, you can choose to contribute and be covered. Like eatmyshorts I prefer to use the money for myself. I know of colleagues who state that they are taxed in the IOM. As social contributions are paid with tax, they are not covered and can be caught out. The company has made it very clear when I joined that we are responsible for paying taxes and social contributions ourselves. I have no problem with that, but do agree that this way the overall package is not the best in the world. Fortunately this seems to be getting some attention from management.
I'm disappointed to see this on a public forum. Not for legal reasons, but it is an open invitation to a journalist looking for sensation. A cover page article in a national news paper would not benefit any of us.
Erik.
Do completely agree with you.
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Ok guys, found this stuff from a pprune discussion in 2004(see below) Basicly we are re-discussing things brought up in the past.That is a sad conclusion. Things WILL NOT CHANGE.They will keep throwing cookies at us to keep the folks reasonable happy. But in the meantime they keep on filling their pockets. It will be take it or leave it in this job. I have made up my mind and will soon hand in my resignation.
FRom feb2004:
I meet Net Jet crews from the left side of the pond on just about a weekly basis. The two major threads running here are baffling to them. Other than the griping legally required to maintain a current licence they like the place, the equipment and most of the work practices.
The problem facing all the NJE cheerleaders here is their resolute refusal page after page after page to answer any question in a straight forward manner. This is actually a polite way of saying ducking, diving and consistently, pointedly and egregiously obscuring the truth.
Earlier this week I spoke face to face with a PPRuNer and asked for the most concise and brutal analysis of the issues being purposely obscured - the ones most important to those considering employment. The reason? PPRuNe is for the benefit of pilots and not companies.
The post by Kelly Hopper was the response I received. Note that the regular suspects have not refered to it, refuted a single word or rebutted any point whether historically or in terms of current arrangements. Digs and sneering are a semantic null - devoid of meaning and discounted totally here at the Towers.
The Air Luxor AOC and standard FTL's are a fact.
Generic Portugese FTL's are a fact.
The utterly err, unique NJE ummm, arrangement is a fact and a particularly interesting one in the light of the Crossair Jumbolina report. Something that would prove very interesting tested in employment, civil or criminal law. Something the legal section of the Portugese authorities should be looking at pretty sharpish to cover their own arses.
Let's sum it up. NJE got out of the FTL's required by all other AOC operators in extremely mysterious circumstances. Working for NJE is actually a contract job with no employment law comeback.
Any sane, experienced aviator would be a fool to take the blandishments offered by supposed Net Jet employees as anything other than rose tinted honeymoon whisperings or the ravings of the terminally ambitious.
We've had vast amounts of wasted bandwidth while the two most critical issues for pro's have been intentionally avoided time after time. FTL's and the contract.
Anyone caring to rebut that point will discover the joys of cut and paste thrown back in their face. They will aslo have counter the findings of the Swiss accident investigation insisting on culmulative timing including transport and other duties undertaken prior to flight.
Finally, we at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.
Caveat Emptor
Regards
Followed by:
PPRuNe Towers
Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot
(IC Lavs & Dunnies)
posted 7th February 2004 22:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flight time limitations are a matter of record.
No NJE employee has every given an answer on these limitations. Re read the threads if you have any doubts.
The Crossair report has made extremely clear the JAR/Europs views on cumulative hours.
The UK CAA has had the drafts for many months due to the aircraft type involved in the accident. New methods of auditing all hours of duty including travel and between companies are flying around the various authorities.
Balpa are running a database due to the numbers now involved in litigation.
Let's see those who actually believe any of their writing regarding improving things. Tell pilots reading these threads straight:
Who employs you - the legal, responsible and answerable entity detailed in your contract.
Until that question can be answered reliably anyone considering applying to NJE is gaining less employment protection than a contract pilot out in the third world.
Best pilots in the world or simply the dumbest??
The history of this site is littered with 10 page threads on employment at companies. The one's on the Britannia's, the Monarchs and many others die out in a couple of days. Have a look at the ones that go on and on and on for weeks and months. There are five at the moment and many more from the past.
8 years of running this place tells me this: Smoke + fire = 10 page plus topics.
FTL's as I said at the outset are a matter of public record. They and the contracts are the dirty little secret missing from all these months of enquiries.
It really makes you wonder at the hostility consistently bandied around at those that left the company. I strongly suggest those considering applying take an hour our so to reread every single word published in the last 6 months. Not one word has been edited and the lack of honesty from NJE employees is breathtaking.
I am disgusted at the attacks on pilots who have left NJE from employees who have spent a cumulative 14 pages avoiding answering any question on contracts or flight time limitations.
Regards to all
Rob
PS A private forum should be running out around Easter.
Are you the journalist or an unfortunate pilot with a 3rd world contract?
FRom feb2004:
I meet Net Jet crews from the left side of the pond on just about a weekly basis. The two major threads running here are baffling to them. Other than the griping legally required to maintain a current licence they like the place, the equipment and most of the work practices.
The problem facing all the NJE cheerleaders here is their resolute refusal page after page after page to answer any question in a straight forward manner. This is actually a polite way of saying ducking, diving and consistently, pointedly and egregiously obscuring the truth.
Earlier this week I spoke face to face with a PPRuNer and asked for the most concise and brutal analysis of the issues being purposely obscured - the ones most important to those considering employment. The reason? PPRuNe is for the benefit of pilots and not companies.
The post by Kelly Hopper was the response I received. Note that the regular suspects have not refered to it, refuted a single word or rebutted any point whether historically or in terms of current arrangements. Digs and sneering are a semantic null - devoid of meaning and discounted totally here at the Towers.
The Air Luxor AOC and standard FTL's are a fact.
Generic Portugese FTL's are a fact.
The utterly err, unique NJE ummm, arrangement is a fact and a particularly interesting one in the light of the Crossair Jumbolina report. Something that would prove very interesting tested in employment, civil or criminal law. Something the legal section of the Portugese authorities should be looking at pretty sharpish to cover their own arses.
Let's sum it up. NJE got out of the FTL's required by all other AOC operators in extremely mysterious circumstances. Working for NJE is actually a contract job with no employment law comeback.
Any sane, experienced aviator would be a fool to take the blandishments offered by supposed Net Jet employees as anything other than rose tinted honeymoon whisperings or the ravings of the terminally ambitious.
We've had vast amounts of wasted bandwidth while the two most critical issues for pro's have been intentionally avoided time after time. FTL's and the contract.
Anyone caring to rebut that point will discover the joys of cut and paste thrown back in their face. They will aslo have counter the findings of the Swiss accident investigation insisting on culmulative timing including transport and other duties undertaken prior to flight.
Finally, we at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.
Caveat Emptor
Regards
Followed by:
PPRuNe Towers
Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot
(IC Lavs & Dunnies)
posted 7th February 2004 22:55
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Flight time limitations are a matter of record.
No NJE employee has every given an answer on these limitations. Re read the threads if you have any doubts.
The Crossair report has made extremely clear the JAR/Europs views on cumulative hours.
The UK CAA has had the drafts for many months due to the aircraft type involved in the accident. New methods of auditing all hours of duty including travel and between companies are flying around the various authorities.
Balpa are running a database due to the numbers now involved in litigation.
Let's see those who actually believe any of their writing regarding improving things. Tell pilots reading these threads straight:
Who employs you - the legal, responsible and answerable entity detailed in your contract.
Until that question can be answered reliably anyone considering applying to NJE is gaining less employment protection than a contract pilot out in the third world.
Best pilots in the world or simply the dumbest??
The history of this site is littered with 10 page threads on employment at companies. The one's on the Britannia's, the Monarchs and many others die out in a couple of days. Have a look at the ones that go on and on and on for weeks and months. There are five at the moment and many more from the past.
8 years of running this place tells me this: Smoke + fire = 10 page plus topics.
FTL's as I said at the outset are a matter of public record. They and the contracts are the dirty little secret missing from all these months of enquiries.
It really makes you wonder at the hostility consistently bandied around at those that left the company. I strongly suggest those considering applying take an hour our so to reread every single word published in the last 6 months. Not one word has been edited and the lack of honesty from NJE employees is breathtaking.
I am disgusted at the attacks on pilots who have left NJE from employees who have spent a cumulative 14 pages avoiding answering any question on contracts or flight time limitations.
Regards to all
Rob
PS A private forum should be running out around Easter.
Are you the journalist or an unfortunate pilot with a 3rd world contract?
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Originally Posted by morescalps
Big Posters at the FBO...
If there is nothing wrong with the contract etc why does it always come up?
Corporate Manslaughter is an interesting concept-
If there is nothing wrong with the contract etc why does it always come up?
Corporate Manslaughter is an interesting concept-
Because people want in a GA world an airline type contract.....
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Our FTLs state a maximum of 55 hrs per week, the UK CAA's state a maximum of 60 hrs. This is offset by some things that are less luxurious. Give and take.
BTW, did you know that the 30 mins closing time after duty is not a legal requirement? But we do get them.
It's all give and take. As CL300 said, it is not an airline. If you're unhappy then maybe you should leave indeed. I'm happy, and I am confident that things are improving. It is a slow process, but it is there.
Erik
BTW, did you know that the 30 mins closing time after duty is not a legal requirement? But we do get them.
It's all give and take. As CL300 said, it is not an airline. If you're unhappy then maybe you should leave indeed. I'm happy, and I am confident that things are improving. It is a slow process, but it is there.
Erik