De Havilland Comet C2 "Sagittarius" XK699

[country calls]

It has been confirmed that RAF Lyneham is to close and I would like to raise the question - what will become of the Comet Gate Guardian? This fine example of British achievment is already in a barely maintained condition and I fear that it could easily end up a victim of the cutters torch as the money supply for the domed unit dries up and precious resources are diverted to more needy projects.

As soon as timescales for closure are announced, I hope somebody will decide this rare jetliner has to be preserved and the wheels of transportation and preservation will grind swiftly into action.

Your thoughts please?

[Tiger_mate]

Interesting point this and I too fear that a JCB awaits its turn. FWIW I would like to see a sponsor or council take it over and leave it exactly where it is now. I am sure that the inevitable industrial development could work around it and it would serve as an appropriate memory to the base.

T_M

[Windy Militant]

As there is already a Comet at the Science Museums out station at Wroughton not a million miles away from Lyneham, I fear that unless sombody makes an active bid to save it, this aircraft is pretty much doomed to an ignominious end

[Hwel]

And the DAK memorial to air dispatchers, it was only moved there last year.

[fradu]

According to the book "RAF gate guards" this jet is owned by the RAF Museum and is on loan at Lyneham, so there's some hope.

HTH,

Mark

[treadigraph]

Ins't it a Comet 2 rather than the 4s that are preserved elsewhere? If so, a more interesting airframe.

Perhaps it should be move to Brize also if logistically possible? IIRC it was moved from Wyton to Lyneham by road a few years back.

[Molesworth Hold]

If I remember correctly the Lyneham Comet was in storage at Henlow prior to its move. I was refurbished at Lyneham around 1987/88. It was decided that all members of the Station should contribute to the stripping of the airframe of paint. Various squadrons/sections were allocated areas to work on. I claim a few square feet just aft of the cockpit, port side.

I also recall some cock up regarding the nameplate. It was unveiled by Princess Ann who had recently been given the title “The Princess Royal.” There was some embarrassment that this was missed, but she said she didn’t mind.

I may be wrong but there is a Mk 2 RC (XK 695) at Duxford.

[26451]

XK695 at Duxford

XK695 c/n 06030 was on display at Duxford years ago. It was broken up in October 1992. The fuselage then went to RAF Newton which was then later completely scrapped in 1995. The nose was saved and was at a scrap yard in Essex for a time. The nose is now at the Mosquito museum, London Colney having arrived there 17th Dec 1995.

Hope this helps

[treadigraph]

Correct Molesworth, my memory is faulty... bit of Googling, the one at Wyton was scrapped in 1987.

The one at Lyneham must be preserved - as far as I can tellit is the only complete survivor.

Treadders.

[Molesworth Hold]

Thanks 26451, I was mislead by a site called spyflight.co.uk into thinking that XK695 was still at Duxford. I can remember myself and TM going down to Duxford about 1979 and having a nose around her. Knowing me I will still have the free leaflet…somewhere. What’s quite disturbing (for me) is that I was at Newton between 92 and 94 and I didn’t know that that fuselage was there.

Perhaps the new display planned for Cosford will create some space for the C2?

[country calls]

Well after all the initial media hype, it appears that Lyneham has got at least another 9 years before closure!

But the replies on this thread have got me thinking, and I have come to the conclusion that talk is indeed cheap and it is time my actions became louder than words.

If it is the last remaining Comet 2, then it probably needs intervention soon to stop it degrading to a point where it is only fit for scrapping. But where do I start? I currently serve at Lyneham and having made some phone calls today, there is a willingness to preserve the airframe, but at no cost to the unit or MOD etc. I should imagine the first thing to do would be to carry out a survey and see what needs doing, but as it isn't one of Mr Lockheed's classic Hercules I have to be honest and say I wouldn't know where to begin.

I am a complete novice in the area of aircraft preservation, so if there is anybody out there who could give me any hints or pointers as to where to start and how best to tackle the project, please either reply on this thread, or PM me. Also if anybody knows of any good sites or books which will enable me to research the aircrafts past, please point me their way.

Thanks in advance!!

[Lukeafb1]

Nobody has mentioned, that XK695, was originally a B.O.A.C. aircraft, registered as G-GAPY (I think, I've lost my records) and which finished its flying life on 51 Squadron at Wyton. XK659, XK655 and XK671 were also on the squadron (I may have the prefix letters wrong, but the numbers are correct).

I remember, that during servicing, the B.O.A.C registration was clearly marked in many inaccessible areas of all four Comets. Flew in all of them many times.

[DrSyn]

You've probably had some PMs on this, country calls, but fradu is correct about the ownership of Saggy 699. She actually belongs to the RAF Museum Reserve Collection (RC). This has moved around a bit in recent years due to the depressingly continuous closures, such as Cardington, their former home. They are now at RAF Stafford but come under the jurisdiction of RAFM Cosford, as far as I know, and you should be able to contact them on 01902 376200.

699 is indeed the last "complete" Mk2 in existence and it is a shame if she does not have a dedicated group of volunteers taking care of her. As a dedicated preservationist in a slightly different field of transport, I can tell you that what you need is enthusiasts and donors in great numbers! When I was at LYE in April she was looking a little weathered but I put that down to the winter. Surely someone gives her a bit of TLC once a year for AOC's, or don't they do that any more? Anyway, I suggest you check with the owners for starters. I can't believe they intend her to go to scrap.

History-wise, 216 Sqn started accepting Comet 2s at LYE in July '56. The first 11 were earmarked for BOAC but none saw commercial service (re: Lukeafb1's post), and instead went to the RAF. After the ill-fated Comet 1s, BOAC waited for the Mk4s. XK699, the last of the "BOAC Mk2s", was built in '56 as G-AMXM, first flew on 02 Feb 57, and was delivered to (I think) 216 on 22 Feb - although I'm not sure whether the Testies had to try and bend any first, proir to Sqn delivery, as they did with our C130 Mk3 a couple of decades later!

The last C2 left LYE in '67. Perhaps Lukeafb1 can fill in here on any subsequent service with 51, which I believe went on into the '70s. For the record, the civil reggies for the Mk2s were, G-AMXA - M, and all became XKnnn, except 'D (XN453) and 'K (XV144) which were 2Es.

Anyway returning to topic, as you say, cc, you still have a bit of time in hand. Most restoration projects start after the event! There's no time like the present and I hope you gather a loyal following, bearing in mind that many will have more pressing worries to contend with. Let us know how you get on.

[Lukeafb1]

DrSyn,

Bow to your knowledge on the origin of the 51 Comets. All 4 of them had numerous chinagraph or paint BOAC markings, which were, I assume from what you have said, appended during manufacture. I assumed that they were ex-BOAC. As far as I can remember, the four a/c mentioned, all appeared on 51 around 1960/61, although it might have been earlier. XK 671 was the only one of the four which was kept in its original commercial configuration and used to ferry squadron personnel around the globe.

Happy days!

[DrSyn]

Correction

Having made a few calls after this thread went rather quiet , I have a correction to my above post. I got in touch with The Museum and they also were uncertain initially about 699's ownership. I have now been assured that she was only loaned to the RAFMRC by the RAF Historic Collection (DLO - RAF Wyton) who remain the true owners.

If you are still following the thread you started, country calls, email or PM me and I will pass on the name and number you should call for further info, as they are not directly in the public domain. If you have already contacted the "owners" successfully, and have everything in hand, perhaps you could make a suitable post here to that effect and I'll get back to preserving locos!

However, I am sure there are many (497 views now) who would be interested to follow the progress of the Comet, as she is going to need TLC long before, and if, Lyneham winds down.

Lukeafb1, interesting info. I expect the 51 Sqn history would reveal which, if any, airframes went directly to your unit and which were handed on. I only remember that they were still around during my early service and quite a thrill to see in action, for those of us who appreciated that sort of thing.

[Bof]

Comet 2

Having watched the thread with great interest, I thought I'd add my two pennorth if you are interested.

The first two aircraft were originally designated T2s (XK669 and XK670) and were delivered to Lyneham in June 56. these were quickly followed by eight C2s with a beefed up floor. XK671, 695, 696, 697, 698, 699, 715 and 716.

By today's standards they were pretty primitive, no reverse thrust and the only pilot interpreted nav aids were two coffee grinder ADFs and a fairly early cloud radar which could pick up islands and coastlines. No VORs - there weren't any in the UK and no DME, just NDBs. The Nav had Gee Mk3, a sextant and an API. Most instrument landings were off a GCA. But straight up to about FL350ish and then drift up to FL450 by the TOD with a .74M cruise.

Remember no upper airways and the ony traffic up there was military jet. Not even the 707 was around in Europe in the late 50s. The captains were all experienced piston Transport guys and all the 2nd pilots had done at least a tour on jets. Originally we had four co-pilots on strength to cope with captain wastage (Comet only lifed at 5 years in the early days) and about 21 2nd pilots who were not "catted" on type. In other words, any hands on flying was purely a captain's decision.

However we had THREE Meteor 7s on 216 for the 2nd pilots to fly in our spare time and to maintain our jet IRs. Comet routes, apart from the bread and butter stuff to Changi and Adelaide was pretty well world wide. Happy days of a big pink map.

[DrSyn]

Check: Straight-jacket: - Off

Splendid post, Bof. It's a rare priviledge to be in at the beginning of a new era and you obviously had that. Imagine, these days, anyone keeping 3 spare Meatboxes to allow the "youngsters" to maintain their skills in their spare time. With all the routes that were opening up at the time you must have been falling over each other for a tour on 216!

It is interesting what you say about the original 5-year life of the Comet 2. As far as I can tell, 51 Sqn flew its last one (XK695) until 21 Jan 75, which was only 7 months before 216's shiny Mk4s were sold-off to Dan-Air as part of the great Purge of '75 . Only the nose of 695 exists now, making 699 the sole complete airframe and therefore worthy of preservation - IMHO.

Lukeafb1, I've had a look through the records and, as with most Brit transports, it's all a bit complicated because there were so few airframes produced, and some (eg: 2Es) were used for R&D or modified (at Marshall's) before delivery. The grounding of the Mk1s after BOAC YP's demise, while the early 2s were in production, adds to the complexity. For example, the early models re-allocated for RAF recce did not require the higher cabin pressurisation of the C2s destined for 216. Anyway, delivery sequence goes something like this.

216 Sqn
216 received 10 x Mk2s, fairly swiftly, between Jun '56 and May '57. They were, XK-> 670 [Corvus], 669 [Taurus], 671 [Aquila], 695 [Perseus], 696 [Orion], 697 [Cygnus], 698 [Pegasus], 699 [Saggitarius], 716 [Cepheus], 715 [Columba]. As Bof says, the first two were T2s, later reinforced to C2 standard. Perhaps their naming after stellar constellations illustrates the paucity of radio aids and the importance of Navs and sextants in those days!

192 Sqn (became, 21 Aug 58) 51 Sqn
3 x Mk2R (or "RCMs") were delivered to 192 Sqn in this order: XK-> 663 [Apr '57], 659 [Jul '57] and 655 [Apr '58]. 663 was destroyed in a hangar fire at Watton 13 Sep 57 and therefore did not serve on 51, although listed as such elsewhere (even the official records are dubious here - personal memory anyone?). 216 Sqn started equipping with (5x) C4s in 1962 and passed on a further 4 x C2s to 51 Sqn, thus: 715 [May '62], 671 [Sep '62], 695 [Mar '63] and 697 [Mar '67].

And just to return to the original topic ( ) XK699 Saggitarius
Saggy 699 indeed arrived at Lyneham on 22 Feb 57 and served on 216 until being ferried to Henlow (didn't they preserve a TSR2 there in spite of Wilson?) on 16 Jun 67 and, much later, by road back to LYE! I am guessing that it may also have been the last 216 C2 at Lyneham, but 51 Sqn's continued to appear there sporadically during the early '70s as far as I remember. I also note that she clipped a tree with her starboard wing on approach to Turnhouse in Aug '58 (the mind boggles) but returned to service the following month.

Must dash. Matron's doing her night round.

[Lukeafb1]

DrSyn,

Although not a personal memory (I arrived at Watton in May 62), the 663 fire was still a hot (?) topic of conversation when I got there.

Apparently, the story goes, that the duty key orderly forgot to turn off the main hangar power. 663 was undergoing (unspecified) major modification in 4 hangar and a lead lamp was left live in the a/c. During the early evening, it ignited some part of the fuselage near the rear entrance door. The fire smouldered all night, gradually getting more severe, but still only smouldering. Apparently, the lack of available air in the sealed hangar, contributed to the smouldering, rather than a full fire. By the morning, the aircraft was virtually totally destroyed internally. Regular fire picket patrols, (because of lack of appreciable flames) failed to notice anything amiss. In their defence, they only patrolled the hangars externally and therefore the interior of the actual hangar floor space was out of vision. I actually knew one of the pickets on duty that night.

When the hangar was opened in the morning, the influx of air caused the whole fuselage to burst into flames, the nose undercarriage collapsed and the tail assembly punched a hole in the roof. The tail assembly then snapped off. As you said, the aircraft was destroyed.

An edited afterthought - I think I'm right in saying, that 663 was officially assigned to 51 and may have flown a few sorties on the squadron. The fire occured when it was being modified to 51 requirements.

Are you sure that you have the date of the fire correct? I know its in the dim and distant past, but I thought that the fire happened only a year or so, before I joined the squadron. Certainly I was not aware, when the story was (repeatedly) recalled, that it was all of 5 years before.

[DrSyn]

Great stuff, Lukeafb1. As I said, there seemed to be some doubt about the date, and your recollection would seem to favour an alternative of 3 Jun 59. This would have put 663 on 51 Sqn for the best part of a year. As jet transports were an expensive rarity at that time, I am quite sure it would have remained a hot topic for ages, if not indeed a legend.

I note from the front page of one of the Comet websites, that one of your possible contemporaries was present at the time and posted a correction to the location of the mishap. I wish he'd mentioned the date! There's another page here which might interest you and which also shows the above date. Although this page is not entirely accurate, I reckon you must be right.

I would imagine that, in view of 51's rôle, the incident would have been kept fairly low-key at the time. It is strange that there should be almost a 2-year discrepancy, however. Such is the nature of PPRuNe, no doubt someone who was on the scene will pop-up with positive confirmation before long It's certainly revived my historical interest in the aircraft and the last survivor.

Shame they don't have F540s on line yet!

[FJJP]

And there's a taxyable Comet at Bruntingthorpe...