De Havilland Comet C2 "Sagittarius" XK699
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Dr Syn - I can't swear that XK699 was the Comet I saw, but there was certainly A Comet in the T2 hangar on the north side of RAF Henlow in the eighties. Herts / Bucks Wing Air Training Corps used to hold their Wing Field Days there, and I remember moving round various stands to complete various tasks, including one inside the T2 hangar, where the not insignificant bulk of a Comet was standing, albeit partially covered so I never saw the identity. By the size of her, and relative height, I'd say she had her nosewheel extended and the back end on trestles.
By an odd coincidence, and unbeknown to me at the time, the ex-Halton Beaufighter I was later to work on was also in there at the time, this was just before Tim Moore acquired her in 1987. Funny how how things turn out.
As for a TSR2 being at Henlow, I don't know which one it was, but there definately was one there at some point. I saw various pictures of it about a year ago on the Flypast forum. There was quite a funny story attached to that, but for the life of me I can't remember it just now...
Back to XK699, I really do hope something can be done to preserve her. Over the years we've mourned so many truly historic airframes - Gibson's Lancaster ED932 (scrapped 1946), the last Halifax (scrapped Radlett 1960-something), the last Hampden (scrapped Bicester 1950-something). Don't let XK699 be the next....
By an odd coincidence, and unbeknown to me at the time, the ex-Halton Beaufighter I was later to work on was also in there at the time, this was just before Tim Moore acquired her in 1987. Funny how how things turn out.
As for a TSR2 being at Henlow, I don't know which one it was, but there definately was one there at some point. I saw various pictures of it about a year ago on the Flypast forum. There was quite a funny story attached to that, but for the life of me I can't remember it just now...
Back to XK699, I really do hope something can be done to preserve her. Over the years we've mourned so many truly historic airframes - Gibson's Lancaster ED932 (scrapped 1946), the last Halifax (scrapped Radlett 1960-something), the last Hampden (scrapped Bicester 1950-something). Don't let XK699 be the next....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Flight Engineer's Log -
1955
G-AMXE Comet 2
18th July 1955 saw the first flight of G-AMXE which lasted 40 minutes. Then on the same day a 25 minute hop was made to Cambridge where XE was converted to 2R specification, by Marshall’s of Cambridge, for signals duties. (R = Reconnaissance). This aircraft was re-registered as XK663 and allocated to RAF192 Sqd.
Converted to 2R it joined RAF 192 Sqn as XK663 in April 1957.
1957
XK663 Comet 2 (Log. entry reads:T.Mk2 90 Group)
From 22nd February XK663 underwent schedule testing with particular attention being paid to the 112 volt electrical system, Bullet de-icing, radar checks, checks on cabin temperature, performance checks and auto-trim evaluation. These checks were completed by the 21st March after twelve flights.
On 22nd March Dave Davies (ARB) took a 2hr. 45 flight. Minor problems were detected and these were later rectified. Peter Buggé did a final 35min. check flight the following day. Certificate granted XK663 was handed over to 192 Sqd. on 19th April.
Mysteriously on 13th September this aircraft was destroyed in hangar fire.
UK serials:
06027XK663 Comet C(RCM).2: f/f 18/07/1955, ex G-AMXE n.t.u, d/d 18/04/1957, w/o 13/09/1957.
1955
G-AMXE Comet 2
18th July 1955 saw the first flight of G-AMXE which lasted 40 minutes. Then on the same day a 25 minute hop was made to Cambridge where XE was converted to 2R specification, by Marshall’s of Cambridge, for signals duties. (R = Reconnaissance). This aircraft was re-registered as XK663 and allocated to RAF192 Sqd.
Converted to 2R it joined RAF 192 Sqn as XK663 in April 1957.
1957
XK663 Comet 2 (Log. entry reads:T.Mk2 90 Group)
From 22nd February XK663 underwent schedule testing with particular attention being paid to the 112 volt electrical system, Bullet de-icing, radar checks, checks on cabin temperature, performance checks and auto-trim evaluation. These checks were completed by the 21st March after twelve flights.
On 22nd March Dave Davies (ARB) took a 2hr. 45 flight. Minor problems were detected and these were later rectified. Peter Buggé did a final 35min. check flight the following day. Certificate granted XK663 was handed over to 192 Sqd. on 19th April.
Mysteriously on 13th September this aircraft was destroyed in hangar fire.
UK serials:
06027XK663 Comet C(RCM).2: f/f 18/07/1955, ex G-AMXE n.t.u, d/d 18/04/1957, w/o 13/09/1957.
Last edited by ORAC; 28th Jul 2003 at 05:14.
Man of the Marsh
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Unfortunately, ORAC, it is not clear from that record, contained in the Comet site I linked above, whether E Young (the F/E) or D Young (the site author) inserted that info at a later date. From a historian's perspective it is not definitive, alas. Even the ASN ventures both dates, as per previous posts. What is needed is someone who "was there", or somone who can check the 540s. I remain sure in the best traditions of PPRuNE (which includes us all going wildly off-topic 
), the true answer will emerge!
), the true answer will emerge!
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
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Anybody,
Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".
XK695 was the only aircraft which I was intimately associated with, which was preserved.
Cor, I've just realised, this is my 100th post. Its only taken 3 years!!
Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".
XK695 was the only aircraft which I was intimately associated with, which was preserved.
Cor, I've just realised, this is my 100th post. Its only taken 3 years!!
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Just a quick update, as I have been away downroute and haven't had chance to keep you all updated with my progress.
I had a look round the aircraft and without going inside or examining it in any great detail it still seems reasonably sound, just in need of some TLC really. It looks quite shabby as it is parked near some trees and the sap and algae etc is fairly inground into the paint. I looked into using detergent based cleaners, and it is unfortunately a non=starter as the resulting run off would cause an environment problem, if it got into the watercourse. I did think of enlisting the help of an ATC Sqn to get stuck in with scrubbing brushes but I fear it would damage the paintfinish too much. When I suggested cutting the offending trees down, you can imagine the response!
Thanks for all the replies on this thread and let me assure you it is not going away, something needs to be done and I am probably ideally placed to do it.
Dr Syn, thanks for the offer and an email will be winging to you soon.
CC
I had a look round the aircraft and without going inside or examining it in any great detail it still seems reasonably sound, just in need of some TLC really. It looks quite shabby as it is parked near some trees and the sap and algae etc is fairly inground into the paint. I looked into using detergent based cleaners, and it is unfortunately a non=starter as the resulting run off would cause an environment problem, if it got into the watercourse. I did think of enlisting the help of an ATC Sqn to get stuck in with scrubbing brushes but I fear it would damage the paintfinish too much. When I suggested cutting the offending trees down, you can imagine the response!
Thanks for all the replies on this thread and let me assure you it is not going away, something needs to be done and I am probably ideally placed to do it.
Dr Syn, thanks for the offer and an email will be winging to you soon.
CC
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Just a quick update to keep this thread riding high.
I am still in the process of tracking down the hapless individual at Lyneham who has signed for 699 and all I am saying on that is, you can run but you can't hide!!
Saggy does get washed. Evidently there is a contract for the airframe to be washed once a year, and the chap who deals with it tells me that when she gets a bit green about the gills, a team goes down and do the biz.
The next bit of good news is an engineer with experience on Comets has offered me his help to do a survey of the structure. The company is sending me first to the Falklands and then to the USA, but we reckon the survey will take place in late Oct or early Nov this year.
As a funny aside, anyone I have spoken to about Saggy's general condition (and there have been a few) has come out with the same phrase: " You know the floors F
ed don't you?" Guys(and one gal), I think I've got the message thanks!!
Stay Tuned Folks
CC
I am still in the process of tracking down the hapless individual at Lyneham who has signed for 699 and all I am saying on that is, you can run but you can't hide!!
Saggy does get washed. Evidently there is a contract for the airframe to be washed once a year, and the chap who deals with it tells me that when she gets a bit green about the gills, a team goes down and do the biz.
The next bit of good news is an engineer with experience on Comets has offered me his help to do a survey of the structure. The company is sending me first to the Falklands and then to the USA, but we reckon the survey will take place in late Oct or early Nov this year.
As a funny aside, anyone I have spoken to about Saggy's general condition (and there have been a few) has come out with the same phrase: " You know the floors F
ed don't you?" Guys(and one gal), I think I've got the message thanks!!Stay Tuned Folks
CC
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Lukeafb1 -
Sadly it's not the only rare airframe Duxford have scrapped, and they have the Shackleton in their sights for the chop treatment next (though some bits will then be kept as an 'interactive exhibit').
As both Hendon and Cosford have also scrapped airframes whose rarity value approaches that of the proverbial rocking horse droppings, it would appear significant airframes have safer futures in independent museums rather than with large institutions such as the IWM, RAF Museum... or MoD!
Out of curiosity, why, after XK695 was assigned to the RAF Museum at Duxford (saw it there a couple of times years ago), would it have been removed and scrapped? Seems to go against the whole ethos of "museum".
As both Hendon and Cosford have also scrapped airframes whose rarity value approaches that of the proverbial rocking horse droppings, it would appear significant airframes have safer futures in independent museums rather than with large institutions such as the IWM, RAF Museum... or MoD!
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Just to keep the topic riding high, I am pleased to report that the wheels are still in motion albeit very slowly. As soon as I get any more news I will let you all know.
Until then, I am wondering if anyone who has made posts regarding Saggy's chequered history, would mind if I used the info as a basis for an article I am planning to write for the Lyneham Staion Magazine?
Until then, I am wondering if anyone who has made posts regarding Saggy's chequered history, would mind if I used the info as a basis for an article I am planning to write for the Lyneham Staion Magazine?
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As I understand it, the Duxford Comet 2 was "too far gone due to corrosion in and around the undercarriage structire" to be worth saving. The fact that they have a Comet 4 as well might have led to a choice having to be made. That one's restoration is progressing, albeit slowly.
Ozplane,
Shouldn't that quote really read, ".....through neglect we've allowed the corrosion to become too bad................"
It was the same at Hendon with the Beverley, these things fly in and are then left to rot. If they can't look after them properly then they shouldn't be allowed to have them.
Shouldn't that quote really read, ".....through neglect we've allowed the corrosion to become too bad................"
It was the same at Hendon with the Beverley, these things fly in and are then left to rot. If they can't look after them properly then they shouldn't be allowed to have them.
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Can those who visit this Forum and are making efforts to 'save' XK699 drop me a PM.
regards
tc
Edit: This can continue here OK but we are not allowing a linked 'campaign.'
regards
tc
Edit: This can continue here OK but we are not allowing a linked 'campaign.'
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Entry of the Comet 2C into the RAF.
Extracts from memoirs with apologies for the length of the post.
In August 1956 I was selected as one of a team of three pilots to do RAF acceptance trials on the deHavilland Comet 2C. The Comet 1 was the first commercial jet aircraft and had first flown on 27 July 1949. Sqn Ldr Peter Baker was the team leader and Flt Lt Geoff Fletcher the other pilot. Peter later teamed up wit Brian Trubshaw as the initial test pilots on the Concord. Geof later became the RAF's test pilot on the proposed F111K. Together with flight engineers, we studied pilots' notes and determined the essential data to be able to fly the Comet with minimum conversion time. Approach speeds, minimum control speeds, emergency systems operation and limitations were all consigned to one's memory.
On 13 August 1956 someone flew Peter Baker to Hatfield where he was to join a company pilot to fly Comet No 669 back to Boscombe Down. Peter arranged, before departure, that he would taxi in to the Boscombe Down tarmac to off-load the company pilot and at the same time I would climb aboard to occupy the right seat. Peter had watched a circuit, flown by the company pilot, at Hatfield and had then changed seats to become Captain for the flight back to Boscombe Down.
I passed the company pilot, with a nod of the head, on the steps and that was the last we saw of him as he headed back to Hatfield. Seeing the cockpit of the Comet for the first time was interesting enough but to climb immediately into the right seat and start taxying was a challenge which I enjoyed. Peter flew one circuit and we changed seats. I then flew a circuit, taxied in to the flight line where Peter exited and Geoff Fletcher joined me to sit in the right seat. I showed him a circuit and we then changed seats. He then flew his first circuit, after which we parked the aircraft. That was the completion of our conversion. Flights to follow were to be devoted to a 100 flying hour coverage of all aspects of aircraft handling, with a few performance checks included. Something not recalled caused 669 to disappear from the scene soon after and we continued flight testing on 671.
Later that day, Peter and I flew 2.45 hrs assessing handling characteristics.
The Comet 2C was a modified Comet 1, having been fitted with drooped leading edges to its wings and structural improvements to its fuselage. To me, the tail looked to be too small in area. This showed up as inadequate directional stability, particularly in the landing configuration. The triplicated powered flying control systems, being the first for a civil airliner were terrible. Direct simple spring feel gave no sense of indicated air speed. High break out forces made it impossible to fly smoothly without resorting to unusual ways of inserting flying control inputs. The breakout force on the elevators was 5 pnds, on the ailerons 12 pnds and on the rudders a massive 35 pnds. Imagine trying to drive a car in which you have to exert a force to the steering wheel of 5 pnds before you can achieve any steering wheel movement.
We soon found that the large elevator trim wheel, conveniently positioned beside the centre console, was easier to use than the control column. Small movements of the trim wheel were a good substitute to battling one's way through that 5 pnd breakout force each time the elevator needed a nudge. Our harsh criticism of the flying control feel systems caused a redesign of those systems to incorporate "Q feel", which I understand was a vast improvement. Q feel provides a pilot with a feel variable with indicated air speed.
On 4 September I flew tests to measure rates of roll and oscilliatory stability in Comet 671. Ray Bray was my copilot and Jock Cowan the navigator and special instrumentation operator. A couple of visitors from the Test Pilots' School came along for the ride. A trace recorder had been installed to record the test results. The weather forecast had cloud from 8,000 ft to 22,000 ft.
Measuring rates of roll involves rolling the aircraft into a 90 degree bank then applying full aileron to roll at maximum rate through to 90 degrees the other way. This was to be repeated many times at differing air speeds, mach number and configurations. These gyrations are somewhat sickening to those not directly involved in control. My stomach never lost its sensitivity to abnormal manoeurvres and I was ready to call a halt, particularly when I noticed the odd sick-bag appearing. Also my arms were becoming fatigued. So at 30,000 ft I called Boscombe Down VHF radio direction finder for a course to steer to base. I was given a north westerly heading and turned the aircraft on to that heading. I had reasoned that the Comet would be roughly in the same block of air in which we had started our rolls about an hour before and that we would not be far from base.
I started a moderate rate of descent and climbed out of the seat to give one of the visiting pilots a chance to handle the aircraft. My directions to him were to descend to break through cloud base and to hold level when clear. This gave me the opportunity to wander around the rear fuselage and assess such things as the noise levels and vibrations of the airframe. On returning to the flight deck, I could see that we were beneath cloud at 9,000 ft. Jock Cowan, the navigator, had a map in his hand and was peering intently at the terain. Plugging into intercom, I jokingly said "What's with this map reading Jock ? Don't you know how to work the G set ?"
He said something to indicate that the G set was no damned good and had refused to indicate properly. He had been operating the instrumentation recorders and now had no idea where we were. I asked whether anyone had called Boscombe VHF/DF. Many calls had been made and it was assumed that there had been some failure of Boscombe facilities as they could not be heard on any of the usual frequencies. We made contact with other aircraft to check our own radios.
About this time, we could see a coast line approaching. We all assumed that we could now only be approaching the coast of the Bristol Channel, having over-flown Boscombe Down. We flew over the coast and Jock tried to match what he could see with the map. He wasn't having much success until someone said, "That little town down there looks like Illfracoombe, so that must be the Bristol Channel." On the assumption that it was Illfracoombe, Jock came up with a rough heading of 090 to fly to base.
We settled on that heading for a while. Jock and I conferred and we made further attempts at map reading. Wishing to take command of the situation I resumed the left seat so that I could more readily operate the radios. I changed radio frequency to 121.5 Mhz, the international distress frequency. Almost immediately, I heard an aircraft talking to Martlesham Heath which I knew to be an airfield on the E coast of England. When I could get a word in edgeways, I called Martlesham Heath with a "Do you read ?". The answer was affirmative so I then requested a true bearing. The DF operator came back with 135 degrees. I could hardly believe this so I requested a confirmation. The bearing was confirmed.
There we were heading East, somewhere over France. Whew ! Martlesham Heath requested our aircraft type, flight conditions and type. After responding, we were asked if we needed emergency assistance. I declined and commenced a climb back up to 30,000 ft to conserve our dwindling fuel. During the climb, we went through the radio horizon for Boscombe Down VHF and soon had new courses to steer to take us back to England. We had no IFF and I was half expecting an intercept by French fighters. None appeared and I never did hear whether they had us on radar.
We cruised for some time before getting back into the UK G chain, allowing the Navigator to accurately establish our position. The rest was routine, except for a distinct feeling of having egg on our faces. We had penetrated a jet stream at our higher altitudes and this had blown us well into France, before I started that first descent. The coast line we had come across was the west coast of France. The G set would not work for Jock because we were out of range of the particular G chain extending only over England. This was the worst case of uncertainty of position that I had ever experienced.
Some days later, I flew a measured take-off in the Comet to determine the extent by which the drooped wing leading edges had reduced high incidence drag during take off. Two Comet 1s had been lost during civil operations from Cairo and Karachi airports whilst attempting take-offs in high temperature conditions. Pilots, unused to slow acceleration with heavy aircraft in high temperature conditions, had rotated excessively nose high too early in their take-off rolls. The thrust from the engines was inadequte, under these conditions, to accelerate the aircraft to a lift off in the remaining runway lengths available.
I calculated, very carefully, that on a runway of 11,000 feet I could try for an exaggerated nose high attitude as soon as there was enough elevator power, measure the acceleration in this attitude for 5,000 ft and if inadequate, lower the nose to accelerate normally to a lift off speed over the remaining length of runway.
The Comet had a small tail-wheel projecting a little from below the rear fuselage to prevent damage if the fuselage should ever get too close to the ground. This occurred at about 20 degrees nose-up.
For my take off, to be made at maximum weight, I had a mobile unit with a radio positioned along the runway to advise me just how close the little tail wheel was to the runway surface during my exaggerated nose high take off. I started the take off with the control column firmly against its rear stops. The nose came surging up at about 65 Kts and I was able to adjust nose angle to achieve about 1 foot tail wheel clearance. As I rotated, the audible stall warning sounded and a rudder shaker operated as expected. I persisted, noting a slower than normal acceleration. Assessing that the acceleration would be adequate to reach lift-off without lowering the nose, we lumbered into the air with runway to spare. The stall warning and shaker continued for a period until speed exceeded the stalling speed by 20%.
Calculations showed that the drooped leading edges had been effective in substantially lowering high incidence drag and that it was now likely that only gross diversions from the recommended take-off procedures, which now included a rotate speed, could result in any repeats of the previous disasters.
Another unusual trial in the Comet was made on the ground. This involved pressurising the aircraft to a full design overpressure. The trial was a carry over from the investigations into Comet fuselage fatigue failures. Engineers wanted some measurements of fuselage distortion, so we sat in the aircraft with engines running and artificially pressured the fuselage to about a 9 psi over-pressure. At a total air pressure of 23.7 psi, I could not detect any physiological differences, except that breathing rate and extent was reduced.
On 15th September Peter Baker and I took Comet 671 on a flight all over the country making Battle of Britain fly-pasts. This was a pleasant diversion.
I was determined to check out the triplicated FCS as far as I could take it. Each system could be closed down independantly and the hydraulics came from several engine driven pumps.
I closed down engines until there was only one pump powering the FCS and then closed down 2 of the FCSs. 671 hardly noticed its predicament until I threw in large control inputs at which stage jack stalling became apparent. The single FCS quickly reverted to some normalcy with controls static. A lot of one armed paper hanging managed to get everything going again.
We finished our 100 hours of flight testing and report writing about mid October 1956 when 671 probably went back to Hatfield for a spell.
Extracts from memoirs with apologies for the length of the post.
In August 1956 I was selected as one of a team of three pilots to do RAF acceptance trials on the deHavilland Comet 2C. The Comet 1 was the first commercial jet aircraft and had first flown on 27 July 1949. Sqn Ldr Peter Baker was the team leader and Flt Lt Geoff Fletcher the other pilot. Peter later teamed up wit Brian Trubshaw as the initial test pilots on the Concord. Geof later became the RAF's test pilot on the proposed F111K. Together with flight engineers, we studied pilots' notes and determined the essential data to be able to fly the Comet with minimum conversion time. Approach speeds, minimum control speeds, emergency systems operation and limitations were all consigned to one's memory.
On 13 August 1956 someone flew Peter Baker to Hatfield where he was to join a company pilot to fly Comet No 669 back to Boscombe Down. Peter arranged, before departure, that he would taxi in to the Boscombe Down tarmac to off-load the company pilot and at the same time I would climb aboard to occupy the right seat. Peter had watched a circuit, flown by the company pilot, at Hatfield and had then changed seats to become Captain for the flight back to Boscombe Down.
I passed the company pilot, with a nod of the head, on the steps and that was the last we saw of him as he headed back to Hatfield. Seeing the cockpit of the Comet for the first time was interesting enough but to climb immediately into the right seat and start taxying was a challenge which I enjoyed. Peter flew one circuit and we changed seats. I then flew a circuit, taxied in to the flight line where Peter exited and Geoff Fletcher joined me to sit in the right seat. I showed him a circuit and we then changed seats. He then flew his first circuit, after which we parked the aircraft. That was the completion of our conversion. Flights to follow were to be devoted to a 100 flying hour coverage of all aspects of aircraft handling, with a few performance checks included. Something not recalled caused 669 to disappear from the scene soon after and we continued flight testing on 671.
Later that day, Peter and I flew 2.45 hrs assessing handling characteristics.
The Comet 2C was a modified Comet 1, having been fitted with drooped leading edges to its wings and structural improvements to its fuselage. To me, the tail looked to be too small in area. This showed up as inadequate directional stability, particularly in the landing configuration. The triplicated powered flying control systems, being the first for a civil airliner were terrible. Direct simple spring feel gave no sense of indicated air speed. High break out forces made it impossible to fly smoothly without resorting to unusual ways of inserting flying control inputs. The breakout force on the elevators was 5 pnds, on the ailerons 12 pnds and on the rudders a massive 35 pnds. Imagine trying to drive a car in which you have to exert a force to the steering wheel of 5 pnds before you can achieve any steering wheel movement.
We soon found that the large elevator trim wheel, conveniently positioned beside the centre console, was easier to use than the control column. Small movements of the trim wheel were a good substitute to battling one's way through that 5 pnd breakout force each time the elevator needed a nudge. Our harsh criticism of the flying control feel systems caused a redesign of those systems to incorporate "Q feel", which I understand was a vast improvement. Q feel provides a pilot with a feel variable with indicated air speed.
On 4 September I flew tests to measure rates of roll and oscilliatory stability in Comet 671. Ray Bray was my copilot and Jock Cowan the navigator and special instrumentation operator. A couple of visitors from the Test Pilots' School came along for the ride. A trace recorder had been installed to record the test results. The weather forecast had cloud from 8,000 ft to 22,000 ft.
Measuring rates of roll involves rolling the aircraft into a 90 degree bank then applying full aileron to roll at maximum rate through to 90 degrees the other way. This was to be repeated many times at differing air speeds, mach number and configurations. These gyrations are somewhat sickening to those not directly involved in control. My stomach never lost its sensitivity to abnormal manoeurvres and I was ready to call a halt, particularly when I noticed the odd sick-bag appearing. Also my arms were becoming fatigued. So at 30,000 ft I called Boscombe Down VHF radio direction finder for a course to steer to base. I was given a north westerly heading and turned the aircraft on to that heading. I had reasoned that the Comet would be roughly in the same block of air in which we had started our rolls about an hour before and that we would not be far from base.
I started a moderate rate of descent and climbed out of the seat to give one of the visiting pilots a chance to handle the aircraft. My directions to him were to descend to break through cloud base and to hold level when clear. This gave me the opportunity to wander around the rear fuselage and assess such things as the noise levels and vibrations of the airframe. On returning to the flight deck, I could see that we were beneath cloud at 9,000 ft. Jock Cowan, the navigator, had a map in his hand and was peering intently at the terain. Plugging into intercom, I jokingly said "What's with this map reading Jock ? Don't you know how to work the G set ?"
He said something to indicate that the G set was no damned good and had refused to indicate properly. He had been operating the instrumentation recorders and now had no idea where we were. I asked whether anyone had called Boscombe VHF/DF. Many calls had been made and it was assumed that there had been some failure of Boscombe facilities as they could not be heard on any of the usual frequencies. We made contact with other aircraft to check our own radios.
About this time, we could see a coast line approaching. We all assumed that we could now only be approaching the coast of the Bristol Channel, having over-flown Boscombe Down. We flew over the coast and Jock tried to match what he could see with the map. He wasn't having much success until someone said, "That little town down there looks like Illfracoombe, so that must be the Bristol Channel." On the assumption that it was Illfracoombe, Jock came up with a rough heading of 090 to fly to base.
We settled on that heading for a while. Jock and I conferred and we made further attempts at map reading. Wishing to take command of the situation I resumed the left seat so that I could more readily operate the radios. I changed radio frequency to 121.5 Mhz, the international distress frequency. Almost immediately, I heard an aircraft talking to Martlesham Heath which I knew to be an airfield on the E coast of England. When I could get a word in edgeways, I called Martlesham Heath with a "Do you read ?". The answer was affirmative so I then requested a true bearing. The DF operator came back with 135 degrees. I could hardly believe this so I requested a confirmation. The bearing was confirmed.
There we were heading East, somewhere over France. Whew ! Martlesham Heath requested our aircraft type, flight conditions and type. After responding, we were asked if we needed emergency assistance. I declined and commenced a climb back up to 30,000 ft to conserve our dwindling fuel. During the climb, we went through the radio horizon for Boscombe Down VHF and soon had new courses to steer to take us back to England. We had no IFF and I was half expecting an intercept by French fighters. None appeared and I never did hear whether they had us on radar.
We cruised for some time before getting back into the UK G chain, allowing the Navigator to accurately establish our position. The rest was routine, except for a distinct feeling of having egg on our faces. We had penetrated a jet stream at our higher altitudes and this had blown us well into France, before I started that first descent. The coast line we had come across was the west coast of France. The G set would not work for Jock because we were out of range of the particular G chain extending only over England. This was the worst case of uncertainty of position that I had ever experienced.
Some days later, I flew a measured take-off in the Comet to determine the extent by which the drooped wing leading edges had reduced high incidence drag during take off. Two Comet 1s had been lost during civil operations from Cairo and Karachi airports whilst attempting take-offs in high temperature conditions. Pilots, unused to slow acceleration with heavy aircraft in high temperature conditions, had rotated excessively nose high too early in their take-off rolls. The thrust from the engines was inadequte, under these conditions, to accelerate the aircraft to a lift off in the remaining runway lengths available.
I calculated, very carefully, that on a runway of 11,000 feet I could try for an exaggerated nose high attitude as soon as there was enough elevator power, measure the acceleration in this attitude for 5,000 ft and if inadequate, lower the nose to accelerate normally to a lift off speed over the remaining length of runway.
The Comet had a small tail-wheel projecting a little from below the rear fuselage to prevent damage if the fuselage should ever get too close to the ground. This occurred at about 20 degrees nose-up.
For my take off, to be made at maximum weight, I had a mobile unit with a radio positioned along the runway to advise me just how close the little tail wheel was to the runway surface during my exaggerated nose high take off. I started the take off with the control column firmly against its rear stops. The nose came surging up at about 65 Kts and I was able to adjust nose angle to achieve about 1 foot tail wheel clearance. As I rotated, the audible stall warning sounded and a rudder shaker operated as expected. I persisted, noting a slower than normal acceleration. Assessing that the acceleration would be adequate to reach lift-off without lowering the nose, we lumbered into the air with runway to spare. The stall warning and shaker continued for a period until speed exceeded the stalling speed by 20%.
Calculations showed that the drooped leading edges had been effective in substantially lowering high incidence drag and that it was now likely that only gross diversions from the recommended take-off procedures, which now included a rotate speed, could result in any repeats of the previous disasters.
Another unusual trial in the Comet was made on the ground. This involved pressurising the aircraft to a full design overpressure. The trial was a carry over from the investigations into Comet fuselage fatigue failures. Engineers wanted some measurements of fuselage distortion, so we sat in the aircraft with engines running and artificially pressured the fuselage to about a 9 psi over-pressure. At a total air pressure of 23.7 psi, I could not detect any physiological differences, except that breathing rate and extent was reduced.
On 15th September Peter Baker and I took Comet 671 on a flight all over the country making Battle of Britain fly-pasts. This was a pleasant diversion.
I was determined to check out the triplicated FCS as far as I could take it. Each system could be closed down independantly and the hydraulics came from several engine driven pumps.
I closed down engines until there was only one pump powering the FCS and then closed down 2 of the FCSs. 671 hardly noticed its predicament until I threw in large control inputs at which stage jack stalling became apparent. The single FCS quickly reverted to some normalcy with controls static. A lot of one armed paper hanging managed to get everything going again.
We finished our 100 hours of flight testing and report writing about mid October 1956 when 671 probably went back to Hatfield for a spell.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Milt
Nice story
Only nit-pick is that the take off accidents you mentioned were due to it being possible to STALL the wing with the main wheels on the ground - OK I know that would increase the drag - the droop LE was to INCREASE the AoA needed to stall to greater than you could reach with the wheels on the ground.
JF
Nice story
Only nit-pick is that the take off accidents you mentioned were due to it being possible to STALL the wing with the main wheels on the ground - OK I know that would increase the drag - the droop LE was to INCREASE the AoA needed to stall to greater than you could reach with the wheels on the ground.
JF
Champagne anyone...?
She is looking very sorry for herself at the moment 
Here's a thought: we've paid BAe £3Bn odd to churn out a load of MRA4s that we've now decided we don't want. As they've yet to deliver them I assume that money is, as yet, "unspent". That being the case I suggest that the RAF now request that BAe to take said monies and spend a fraction of it on using their Nimrod workforce to get Saggy all neat and tidy again.
Here's a thought: we've paid BAe £3Bn odd to churn out a load of MRA4s that we've now decided we don't want. As they've yet to deliver them I assume that money is, as yet, "unspent". That being the case I suggest that the RAF now request that BAe to take said monies and spend a fraction of it on using their Nimrod workforce to get Saggy all neat and tidy again.
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Ay thank you...
Last weekend I bumped into a retired AQM who has strong views about the preservation of 'Saggy' . She's not on the internet so I'm asking questions on her behalf.
Do anyone have an update?
Last weekend I bumped into a retired AQM who has strong views about the preservation of 'Saggy' . She's not on the internet so I'm asking questions on her behalf.
Do anyone have an update?
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My overall memory of THAT machine was Sqn Cdrs ordering people to 'volunteer' to clean it up when it was stuck there in the first place.
Perhaps it could be joined by a C130K, a Harrier, a Nimrod and a VC10 . . .
Perhaps it could be joined by a C130K, a Harrier, a Nimrod and a VC10 . . .
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Storage at Shawbury? (In bits?) That would be a satisfactory outcome, the alternative being the scrappy.
Looking forward to anything more concrete as and when anyone's able to spill more beans.
Looking forward to anything more concrete as and when anyone's able to spill more beans.