G-ARPI - The Trident Tragedy: 40 years ago today
Couldn't agree more especially the treatment of Simon Ticehurst and Captain Rob Collins...
They even repositioned the jump seat to make Simon turn around to talk to Rob.
Hung them out to dry.
Changed the noise abatement proceedures...SOP...undercarraige lever...the warning system...ranks...gave Key a handmike as well as modern headsets.
Found some Northern actor with a fictious poster blaming him repeatively for upsetting Key.
And added that he was a "top" pilot which he wasn't as he had just been turned down for a training job...all in the inquiry report.
Best bit was hearing the ex head of flight safety mutter on about the droops increasing the wind over the wing...
In my day we spoke about the droop re energising the boundry layer or even augmenting the airflow.
Sad as they could have done a proper job.
I wonder why
They even repositioned the jump seat to make Simon turn around to talk to Rob.
Hung them out to dry.
Changed the noise abatement proceedures...SOP...undercarraige lever...the warning system...ranks...gave Key a handmike as well as modern headsets.
Found some Northern actor with a fictious poster blaming him repeatively for upsetting Key.
And added that he was a "top" pilot which he wasn't as he had just been turned down for a training job...all in the inquiry report.
Best bit was hearing the ex head of flight safety mutter on about the droops increasing the wind over the wing...
In my day we spoke about the droop re energising the boundry layer or even augmenting the airflow.
Sad as they could have done a proper job.
I wonder why
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually it was Captain John Collins (not Rob); former BEA Trident co-pilot who moved onto Vanguards for his command. I totally agree with you; John Collins was positioned directly behind Captain Key and there was a rumour that he recognised what had gone wrong un-buckled his harness in an attempt to re-select the droops as his body was found by a fireman across the centre console and his head set by Keighley's rudder pedals. Like all the theories, we will never know for sure what went on.
Its a shame that National Geographic got it wrong; I think the Papa India story needs a good 1h30mn to tell all of the facts.
I also noticed that they got the uniforms slightly wrong (no wings were worn on the shirts) and the rank of Keighley was SFO (three stripes) when in fact he was a junior FO; so would have had two stripes. SFO Ticehurst should have worn three I believe?
Even the R/T messages were not quite correct and they also omitted the fact that Papa India informed LHR ATC that 'they had a small problem' before lining up on 28R for take off. The small problem was not established and the delay was only a few minutes before they reported ready for departure.
Finally and I could go on for hours; the programme omitted the fact that all three engines were running and Papa India was about to push back off stand when the BEA Dispatcher appeared on the flight deck to say that the Vanguard crew (Captain Collins) were required in BRU and would somehow have to be accommodated. This required off loading of some cargo, re-issuing of the load-sheet and a further delay; adding I guess to Key's stress.
Its a shame that National Geographic got it wrong; I think the Papa India story needs a good 1h30mn to tell all of the facts.
I also noticed that they got the uniforms slightly wrong (no wings were worn on the shirts) and the rank of Keighley was SFO (three stripes) when in fact he was a junior FO; so would have had two stripes. SFO Ticehurst should have worn three I believe?
Even the R/T messages were not quite correct and they also omitted the fact that Papa India informed LHR ATC that 'they had a small problem' before lining up on 28R for take off. The small problem was not established and the delay was only a few minutes before they reported ready for departure.
Finally and I could go on for hours; the programme omitted the fact that all three engines were running and Papa India was about to push back off stand when the BEA Dispatcher appeared on the flight deck to say that the Vanguard crew (Captain Collins) were required in BRU and would somehow have to be accommodated. This required off loading of some cargo, re-issuing of the load-sheet and a further delay; adding I guess to Key's stress.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<they also omitted the fact that Papa India informed LHR ATC that 'they had a small problem' before lining up on 28R for take off.>>
Curious to know where that came from? I was the Air Controller who cleared the Trident for take-off and do not recall that. Perhaps he was still talking to Ground?
Curious to know where that came from? I was the Air Controller who cleared the Trident for take-off and do not recall that. Perhaps he was still talking to Ground?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No not talking to ground; at 16.06:53 Papa India contacted LHR tower on 118.2MHz and clearance to line up and take off from 28R was given; at this time Papa India informed the tower that they had a small problem.
It may have been the illumination of the amber stick pusher 'low pressure' warning light as it was later discovered that the locking wire of the three-way valve of the stick pusher system was missing.
It was in fact only about a 30 second delay; as Key then advised he was ready for take off and clearance given again.
It may have been the illumination of the amber stick pusher 'low pressure' warning light as it was later discovered that the locking wire of the three-way valve of the stick pusher system was missing.
It was in fact only about a 30 second delay; as Key then advised he was ready for take off and clearance given again.
Sorry got mixed up with my drinks regards John Collins.
Jerry was a partly qualified second officer...one stripe only.
Simon I think was an acting first officer ...two stripes..but certainly not three.
What they have done is deliberately blame the two not flying occupants of the cockpit.
They had enough with my manuscript and the bibliography to make a realist and truthful version. They didn't.
I had a long talk with the researcher whilst at a motorway service station south of Valence.
I stipulated that I they could only use my material if they produced a truthful account and that I had an editorial veto.
The only thing I heard after that was requiring contact details of Jerry's family and some of my sources - I refused.
A couple of my former colleagues said that there would never be a truthful documentary ...sadly I was wrong and they were right.
Jerry was a partly qualified second officer...one stripe only.
Simon I think was an acting first officer ...two stripes..but certainly not three.
What they have done is deliberately blame the two not flying occupants of the cockpit.
They had enough with my manuscript and the bibliography to make a realist and truthful version. They didn't.
I had a long talk with the researcher whilst at a motorway service station south of Valence.
I stipulated that I they could only use my material if they produced a truthful account and that I had an editorial veto.
The only thing I heard after that was requiring contact details of Jerry's family and some of my sources - I refused.
A couple of my former colleagues said that there would never be a truthful documentary ...sadly I was wrong and they were right.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quoting blind pew:
I didn't see it that way. I saw the program and thought they did fairly well in separating facts from fiction (fiction being what actually happened in the cabin) and they were clear that noone could say anything about why things went wrong. Personally I do not think of the program as blaming the non-flyers. They did a review of the behaviour of the non-flying crew but they also reviewed Capt Key's speed profiles after take off.
As for the authenticity of the Trident flight deck generally speaking (outfits, equipment etc), the main thing is the placement of the droop/flaps levers. I compared the film footage with a picture from a museum and it didn't look the same. This can of course be due to a number of reasons of which I am unaware. Could someone please elaborate on this?
EDIT: I just realized that they redesigned the levers to avoid confusion, and this must be the reason they don't look the same. Sorry! A bit foggy today!
From reading your posts, blind pew (I must say I have the greatest respect for you and I intend to buy your book), I understand that there was a culture within the company that might have contributed. That wasn't covered, I agree. I also agree that I was waiting for someone to emphasize on the noise abaitment procedures being strange - there was one former Capt who mentioned it to be strange so it was covered but only briefly.
Someone here asked what happened to the guy Mr Key argued with some time before takeoff. I am a bit curious about that too.
What they have done is deliberately blame the two not flying occupants of the cockpit.
As for the authenticity of the Trident flight deck generally speaking (outfits, equipment etc), the main thing is the placement of the droop/flaps levers. I compared the film footage with a picture from a museum and it didn't look the same. This can of course be due to a number of reasons of which I am unaware. Could someone please elaborate on this?
EDIT: I just realized that they redesigned the levers to avoid confusion, and this must be the reason they don't look the same. Sorry! A bit foggy today!
From reading your posts, blind pew (I must say I have the greatest respect for you and I intend to buy your book), I understand that there was a culture within the company that might have contributed. That wasn't covered, I agree. I also agree that I was waiting for someone to emphasize on the noise abaitment procedures being strange - there was one former Capt who mentioned it to be strange so it was covered but only briefly.
Someone here asked what happened to the guy Mr Key argued with some time before takeoff. I am a bit curious about that too.
Last edited by MrSnuggles; 28th Dec 2013 at 21:27.
The profile of the "knobs" on the ends of the droop and flap levers were always different.
Post accident they installed a speed dependant solenoid to stop premature droop retraction but if we hadn't had the ridiculous noise abatement proceedure then it would have been practically impossible to retract early.
What the film didn't show correctly in this aspect was two points...one minor and that was we started stop watches on start of roll and secondly the flaps were selected in before the huge power reduction..which left us waffling along at a relatively low speed - and without any safe guard on the droop lever.
This, along with SOP, wouldn't have been a problem BUT there were lots including a management pilot who did their own thing - Evans was cross examined by a barrister about FDR statistics of 1 in 8 noise proceedures that did not follow SOP....thats either a lot of cowboys or a lot of blokes who thought they were wrong as Cunningham stated.
What they also convienitly missed was everybody turning around and writing down every Atc clearance leaving no one to mind the shop...another flat earth society SOP.
Post accident they installed a speed dependant solenoid to stop premature droop retraction but if we hadn't had the ridiculous noise abatement proceedure then it would have been practically impossible to retract early.
What the film didn't show correctly in this aspect was two points...one minor and that was we started stop watches on start of roll and secondly the flaps were selected in before the huge power reduction..which left us waffling along at a relatively low speed - and without any safe guard on the droop lever.
This, along with SOP, wouldn't have been a problem BUT there were lots including a management pilot who did their own thing - Evans was cross examined by a barrister about FDR statistics of 1 in 8 noise proceedures that did not follow SOP....thats either a lot of cowboys or a lot of blokes who thought they were wrong as Cunningham stated.
What they also convienitly missed was everybody turning around and writing down every Atc clearance leaving no one to mind the shop...another flat earth society SOP.
Last edited by blind pew; 29th Dec 2013 at 06:15.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LAS1997. Thanks for that. I've mislaid my copy of the report and my brain isn't so good now. Those sort of delays were often due to "getting the numbers" or because the cabin wasn't ready.
we had to put furniture on our drives to stop the 'ghouls' using it as a car park! next day i cycled down during lunch break & a policeman let us in to take some photo's.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From blind pew:
Thankyou for that information! I mean, I wasn't even a glimpse in my mother's eye when all this happened so I am soaking it in like a thirsty elephant!
I do remember from the show that they did use some kind of timing device, but can't recall right now when they started it.
Your last quote is stunning - IF I read it correctly. As I read it, it seems like everyone in the cockpit had to write down ATC clearances. Is that what you are saying? I'm sitting here, wondering if I read things correctly or if I should be baffled speechless.
What the film didn't show correctly in this aspect was two points...one minor and that was we started stop watches on start of roll and secondly the flaps were selected in before the huge power reduction..which left us waffling along at a relatively low speed - and without any safe guard on the droop lever.
What they also convienitly missed was everybody turning around and writing down every Atc clearance leaving no one to mind the shop...another flat earth society SOP.
I do remember from the show that they did use some kind of timing device, but can't recall right now when they started it.
Your last quote is stunning - IF I read it correctly. As I read it, it seems like everyone in the cockpit had to write down ATC clearances. Is that what you are saying? I'm sitting here, wondering if I read things correctly or if I should be baffled speechless.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 66
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ref posts above re Trident cockpit and the possible intervention by the Vanguard pilot, here's a link to a photo by me of the cockpit of the T2 at Duxford-and see comments on it too. Apologies if I've already posted this link:
DSC_0333 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
DSC_0333 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Yes mrsnuggles..we all had to write down cleared levels, frequencies,vor and beacons ...which side they were tuned and if they were identified...all three of us and all at the same time.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
Whilst training they were examined and P3s were also examined by the document department.
Later I will pen a bit more as I now feel that the inquiry was a one sided match; which was also insinuated by an aaib official to me.
Thinking about it over a very nice roast in Columbia road market I realise that the group involved in the inquiry have club members involved in the documentary.
So getting back to my ipad I looked up the guild's membership list.
Hard to believe the coincidence but there were three or four individuals who were at one time masters of the Guild at the inquiry and hey presto...we have another advising the film producers who wasn't even in BEA.
(there just happens to be a CN Wright in the guild as well).
Beggars belief...Or would have done a few years ago...
Bit like a link on here re an ex BEA bloke who presented a paper.
He cites four incidents...which all happened to BOAC pilots ...forgetting all the lot that we killed in BEA at that time.
Sad bit of misguided tribalism.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
Whilst training they were examined and P3s were also examined by the document department.
Later I will pen a bit more as I now feel that the inquiry was a one sided match; which was also insinuated by an aaib official to me.
Thinking about it over a very nice roast in Columbia road market I realise that the group involved in the inquiry have club members involved in the documentary.
So getting back to my ipad I looked up the guild's membership list.
Hard to believe the coincidence but there were three or four individuals who were at one time masters of the Guild at the inquiry and hey presto...we have another advising the film producers who wasn't even in BEA.
(there just happens to be a CN Wright in the guild as well).
Beggars belief...Or would have done a few years ago...
Bit like a link on here re an ex BEA bloke who presented a paper.
He cites four incidents...which all happened to BOAC pilots ...forgetting all the lot that we killed in BEA at that time.
Sad bit of misguided tribalism.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North Cornwall
Age: 73
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I stipulated that I they could only use my material if they produced a truthful account and that I had an editorial veto.
Courtesy of a proxy server, I shall be able to view the program from the far side of the world.
I've read the report and read blind pew's book, so I look forward to seeing what NatGeo have made of the accident.
My connection with the accident is that I knew Simon Ticehurst (and his future wife, Lyn), while he was at Hamble - we both lived in Maidenhead.
I've read the report and read blind pew's book, so I look forward to seeing what NatGeo have made of the accident.
My connection with the accident is that I knew Simon Ticehurst (and his future wife, Lyn), while he was at Hamble - we both lived in Maidenhead.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From blind pew:
Before my jaw interferes with the ground too heavily - would there be ANY reason whatsoever for this indeed very strange procedure? Any justification?
I mean, even when wiggling around in 2D (that is, driving a car) it is really important to KEEP Y'UR EEES ON THE ROOOD FER CREIN' OUT LOUD!
we all had to write down cleared levels, frequencies,vor and beacons ...which side they were tuned and if they were identified...all three of us and all at the same time.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
I mean, even when wiggling around in 2D (that is, driving a car) it is really important to KEEP Y'UR EEES ON THE ROOOD FER CREIN' OUT LOUD!