G-ARPI - The Trident Tragedy: 40 years ago today
Las1997
Rick Flavell...
I vaguely remember rick as being jus another Normal and nice bloke.
I asked two mates last night and they confirmed the above.
They thought he went onto the Tristar, a command and had a perfectly normal career.
The program is at loggerheads with the report...as he was part of a group and the poster was fictious.
I had witnessed a similar scene with Stan a couple of days before.
Stan had been the union rep for Jimmy Thain during the inquiries after the Munich Disaster.
There is another link between the two accidents and that was BEA had withheld two accident reports from crews.
IIRC the Dutch and the Canadians had both lost aircraft due to aqua planing.
Thain was exonerated a few years before PI but BEA, who had sacked him, wouldn't reinstate him.
A senior captain who knew Key said their were a group of pilots who thought Key should have pushed for industrial action to get Thain reinstated. When this didn't happen they picked on him.
From my personal Working experiences The level of bullying in BEA was exceptional.
One also have to take into account that the FOD had recently sacked a group of pilots and several captains had been threatened if they refused to take us as crew.
It would not be acceptable today and only a small group were responsible.
I see them as damaged individuals.
BUT most of the time it was a fantastic job especially after we had been properly trained and I was flying with a captain who would trust me ; there can be few jobs so rewarding for a young bloke in the 1970s.
Mrsnuggles..I believe it was a proceedure which had its origins in Bomber command..but could be wrong ...an absolutely stupid proceedure and totally unnecessary ..seven years later I was flying two crew on the DC9 ..the only thing we wrote down were met reports and connecting pax info.
I think it was stopped but only after the BOAC guys took over.
Rick Flavell...
I vaguely remember rick as being jus another Normal and nice bloke.
I asked two mates last night and they confirmed the above.
They thought he went onto the Tristar, a command and had a perfectly normal career.
The program is at loggerheads with the report...as he was part of a group and the poster was fictious.
I had witnessed a similar scene with Stan a couple of days before.
Stan had been the union rep for Jimmy Thain during the inquiries after the Munich Disaster.
There is another link between the two accidents and that was BEA had withheld two accident reports from crews.
IIRC the Dutch and the Canadians had both lost aircraft due to aqua planing.
Thain was exonerated a few years before PI but BEA, who had sacked him, wouldn't reinstate him.
A senior captain who knew Key said their were a group of pilots who thought Key should have pushed for industrial action to get Thain reinstated. When this didn't happen they picked on him.
From my personal Working experiences The level of bullying in BEA was exceptional.
One also have to take into account that the FOD had recently sacked a group of pilots and several captains had been threatened if they refused to take us as crew.
It would not be acceptable today and only a small group were responsible.
I see them as damaged individuals.
BUT most of the time it was a fantastic job especially after we had been properly trained and I was flying with a captain who would trust me ; there can be few jobs so rewarding for a young bloke in the 1970s.
Mrsnuggles..I believe it was a proceedure which had its origins in Bomber command..but could be wrong ...an absolutely stupid proceedure and totally unnecessary ..seven years later I was flying two crew on the DC9 ..the only thing we wrote down were met reports and connecting pax info.
I think it was stopped but only after the BOAC guys took over.
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Reminds me of a cartoon in Arthur Whitlock's delightful book "Behind the Cockpit Door", which is illustrated with his own drawings.
In the cartoon the 4 crew in the cockpit of a large airliner of the period are busy, heads down, doing the essential 'paper work'.
In the windscreens can be seen, looming in the distance but already obviously higher than the aircraft, snow-covered mountain peaks.
In the cartoon the 4 crew in the cockpit of a large airliner of the period are busy, heads down, doing the essential 'paper work'.
In the windscreens can be seen, looming in the distance but already obviously higher than the aircraft, snow-covered mountain peaks.
I did a year on the T3 (after 5 on the Vanguard) and spent more time on the systems panel than in the P2 seat, which was sometimes frustrating. But even more irritating was the unbalanced workload. Besides doing the perf calcs, admin tasks and operating the panel, P3 had to reach forward to select the navaids ('Biggin on the red victor, Epsom on the green alpha', and so on) as demanded by P1 or P2, whoever was PF for the leg. I could never understand why these chaps couldn't make the selections themselves. On one LHR-ORY leg the coffee that the CSD brought in for me during taxi out remained untouched until after arrival, with the Capt then nagging me for tardiness in digging out the taxying charts. The return leg was a repeat of the outbound (P2 was doing pre-command training IIRC so I was P3 for both legs). Driving home afterwards the thought occurred to me that perhaps working for another employer might be more satisfying. And thus it turned out. Less than four years later I was LHS on the B737 in a different airline.
Last edited by Discorde; 31st Dec 2013 at 18:15.
we all had to write down cleared levels, frequencies,vor and beacons ...which side they were tuned and if they were identified...all three of us and all at the same time.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
This involved turning away from the instrument panel by all of us.
Those of you unfamiliar with Blind Pew should be aware he can always be relied on for a balanced view of Trident ops -viz. a chip on both shoulders.
Having been a colleague of John Collins I have every sympathy with anyone who lost friends in PI -- but most ex-Trident people have given up trying to correct BP's jaundiced view of his traumatic time with the airline as he knows so much better than us.
Scotbill I suppose you have also forgotten the unique system of bea hieroglyphics?
We had to write down the radio aid- followed by the colour - red or green - then annotate it when identified - followed by an arrow when it was pointing.
Or is this also a figment of my imagination?
Guessing by your attacks on me I suspect that you could be a mason, in the guild or even a past master.
We had to write down the radio aid- followed by the colour - red or green - then annotate it when identified - followed by an arrow when it was pointing.
Or is this also a figment of my imagination?
Guessing by your attacks on me I suspect that you could be a mason, in the guild or even a past master.
Lord Mcnally's deformation bill has become law.
So let's ask Scotbill a question.
In july 1972 all Trident pilots received an amendment in their pigeon holes.
The individual pages were predated.
It contained a stall recovery procedure.
IMHO it was ill conceived.
Questions .
What did it supersede.
Why was it hastily issued.
Who conceived it.
What were the apparent implications on the forth coming public inquiry.
Discuss.
And if you don't know what I am talking about then there must be around 400 other Trident pilots still alive who could refresh your memory.
Happy new year to you all.
In july 1972 all Trident pilots received an amendment in their pigeon holes.
The individual pages were predated.
It contained a stall recovery procedure.
IMHO it was ill conceived.
Questions .
What did it supersede.
Why was it hastily issued.
Who conceived it.
What were the apparent implications on the forth coming public inquiry.
Discuss.
And if you don't know what I am talking about then there must be around 400 other Trident pilots still alive who could refresh your memory.
Happy new year to you all.
Guessing by your attacks on me I suspect that you could be a mason, in the guild or even a past master.
Early Trident operations probably suffered from a checking rather than training mentality inherited from Comets where Training Flight was known as the "Gestapo". However, with an influx of younger trainers from Vanguards and Viscounts about 1973, the Trident operation became one of the slickest team operations it has ever been my pleasure to participate in
I feel sorry for the bittereness that has apparently clouded your life but the only reason I occasionally call you to account is to warn Pprune members that your many diatribes have to be treated with considerable caution.
That duty discharged, I will leave you to your crusade until the next time my patience threshold is exceeded.
Last edited by scotbill; 1st Jan 2014 at 09:08.
My apologies as I thought that you were a "bill" with a jock surname listed as a past master.
If you were indeed on the Trident in 1972 you would still know about my previous post.
Thank you for pointing out that prior and after Papa India that you consider the Trident Trainers as worthy of the term "Gestapo".
I do not disagree that the operation eventually became slick...and I have alluded to that in my book although it is relative to the previous operation.
Would you also consider the two loses of 707s were also the product of a "Gestapo" training regime?
If you were indeed on the Trident in 1972 you would still know about my previous post.
Thank you for pointing out that prior and after Papa India that you consider the Trident Trainers as worthy of the term "Gestapo".
I do not disagree that the operation eventually became slick...and I have alluded to that in my book although it is relative to the previous operation.
Would you also consider the two loses of 707s were also the product of a "Gestapo" training regime?
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Trident PI
Blind Pew
The nose wheel of the 121 was offset due to air con ducting routing!!!
Your book otherwise seems to me a totally fascinating and realistic account of a miserable pre CRM era.There are arguments both sides but on balance you get my vote.
The nose wheel of the 121 was offset due to air con ducting routing!!!
Your book otherwise seems to me a totally fascinating and realistic account of a miserable pre CRM era.There are arguments both sides but on balance you get my vote.
Last edited by Cantiflas; 3rd Jan 2014 at 13:44.
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I worked in maintenance for BEA then BA - the company was a shambles in the late 60's and 70's.Morale was at rock bottom,the aircraft were in terrible shape - filthy and with peeling paint.Maintenance was not what it should have been -the resources available were better than most.Management were beyond belief - absolutely out of touch with reality.When Scottish Airways was formed they gave us an arrogant buffoon as manager who became an expensive laughing stock. As far as the Tridents were concerned I loved working with them - at that time they were at the cutting edge and I learned a tremendous amount that stood me in good stead later. Among the crews were the most arrogant and unpleasant people I have ever worked with - not all,others were excellent but for some reason the arseholes gravitated to the Trident fleet.
As an aside there were some characters - a Capt.Wellford for one - he used to tip us beer money if we gave him a quick turn-round on the last shuttle so he could arrive before the pubs shut.My father worked with him in the 50's and told many tales about him. I heard that he was killed in a car crash the week he retired- can anyone confirm that?
As an aside there were some characters - a Capt.Wellford for one - he used to tip us beer money if we gave him a quick turn-round on the last shuttle so he could arrive before the pubs shut.My father worked with him in the 50's and told many tales about him. I heard that he was killed in a car crash the week he retired- can anyone confirm that?
Thanks for the explanation .Cantiflas...there was always a theory about the offset nose gear and the ILS signals but as often there is always the bull**** factor to be taken into account.
During a bored moment riding shotgun I produced one myself.
Somewhere over the Alps I wrote out the London Volmet South weather and presented it to the skipper and P2.
When asked how the hell I had obtained it around 500nm from the transmitter when the range was normally only 200nm I said "ducting".
Ducting is a phenomena of radio waves bouncing off a layer and increasing the reception wave considerably. In Southend we used to get Dutch TV when I was a kid.
The FO was taken in but the skipper, after a minutes thought, said "that's bollocks Ace" and handed the Plog back.
During a bored moment riding shotgun I produced one myself.
Somewhere over the Alps I wrote out the London Volmet South weather and presented it to the skipper and P2.
When asked how the hell I had obtained it around 500nm from the transmitter when the range was normally only 200nm I said "ducting".
Ducting is a phenomena of radio waves bouncing off a layer and increasing the reception wave considerably. In Southend we used to get Dutch TV when I was a kid.
The FO was taken in but the skipper, after a minutes thought, said "that's bollocks Ace" and handed the Plog back.
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BP.... Being a radio ham I know what you mean about ducting. When I worked in Africa we used HF to contact Malta ATCC but when that didn't work and conditions were right we'd talk to them on UHF Guard!
Bcgallacher....
I have to be carefull how I reply to this as some think I condem the Trident guys as a matter of course.
Firstly the blokes who had huge egos wanted to go on the star fleet...in my day it was the T3....I kept clear of it.
There is a video on Pathy News showing the Comet engineers on strike...says it all about the attitude but it could have been worse.
I have a mate who was an aide de camp to a president..at a do in italy he sat next to his counterpart who told a tale.
He had upset one of his mechanics who had removed his parachute canopy and replaced it with straw...he had him shot.
I used to cringe the way a few of the pilots used to treat other employees...especially one of our captains who would grill the cabin crew on their emergency equipement undermining the chief steward.
On the nightstop he turned up dressed as though he had just arrived at the pop festival at Woodstock...flowery shirt, beads and his hair combed forward over his receding hair line. Needless to say he didn't get his leg over.
The next morning I was P3 with buggar all to do in cruise so I went into the cabin where he promptly called the steward to get me back in..(.he didn't allow newspapers)... Anyway I developed a case of either Delhi belly or pissing razor blades..probably the later as I would lapse into my Sarfend accent and say I must have caught it off a tart or a toilet seat...which left him speechless and wondering where do they recruit blokes like this.
When we got to Queen's building he left his briefcase in the layby whilst he took he suitcase and booze inside..when he returned an obliging crew bus driver had run it over...you could make out the tread pattern on the polished leather.
I phoned up the CC centre to tell them the good news
I have to be carefull how I reply to this as some think I condem the Trident guys as a matter of course.
Firstly the blokes who had huge egos wanted to go on the star fleet...in my day it was the T3....I kept clear of it.
There is a video on Pathy News showing the Comet engineers on strike...says it all about the attitude but it could have been worse.
I have a mate who was an aide de camp to a president..at a do in italy he sat next to his counterpart who told a tale.
He had upset one of his mechanics who had removed his parachute canopy and replaced it with straw...he had him shot.
I used to cringe the way a few of the pilots used to treat other employees...especially one of our captains who would grill the cabin crew on their emergency equipement undermining the chief steward.
On the nightstop he turned up dressed as though he had just arrived at the pop festival at Woodstock...flowery shirt, beads and his hair combed forward over his receding hair line. Needless to say he didn't get his leg over.
The next morning I was P3 with buggar all to do in cruise so I went into the cabin where he promptly called the steward to get me back in..(.he didn't allow newspapers)... Anyway I developed a case of either Delhi belly or pissing razor blades..probably the later as I would lapse into my Sarfend accent and say I must have caught it off a tart or a toilet seat...which left him speechless and wondering where do they recruit blokes like this.
When we got to Queen's building he left his briefcase in the layby whilst he took he suitcase and booze inside..when he returned an obliging crew bus driver had run it over...you could make out the tread pattern on the polished leather.
I phoned up the CC centre to tell them the good news
The nose wheel of the 121 was offset due to air con ducting routing!!!
Or something to do with the Forward Equipment Bay needing to be big enough to accommodate all the autoflight/autoland kit, including those three enormous VRUs.
I forget...
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I've really enjoyed reading this thread Gentlemen. Sounds like it was a lot of fun working at the 'No.1 Airline'
P.S. Blind Pew were some of those Captains still fighting the second world war?
P.S. Blind Pew were some of those Captains still fighting the second world war?
This one just missed it...
But there were some of my vintage nearly as bad.
I was at a retirement do in Nice when I mentioned a name....reply was you mean "thrush".
Thought it was possibly because he was rushing about...but no...it meant "irritating count".
The guy went on to describe a trip where thrush hit the wrong button and nearly wrote off a 74.
But there were some of my vintage nearly as bad.
I was at a retirement do in Nice when I mentioned a name....reply was you mean "thrush".
Thought it was possibly because he was rushing about...but no...it meant "irritating count".
The guy went on to describe a trip where thrush hit the wrong button and nearly wrote off a 74.
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I don't think it was just BEA. A friend who worked at EGCC recalls a dispatcher going onto the flight deck of a BOAC VC10 with the request "papers to sign skip, please". The autocrat in the LH seat simply didn't register the presence of the redcap at all.
"Skip, papers to sign please". Again, totally ignored.
After the 3rd abortive attempt by the dispatcher to get the P1 to acknowledge him, the P2 turned to the redcap and said "I think the cu*t's waiting for you to address him as Sir".
"Skip, papers to sign please". Again, totally ignored.
After the 3rd abortive attempt by the dispatcher to get the P1 to acknowledge him, the P2 turned to the redcap and said "I think the cu*t's waiting for you to address him as Sir".
Shaggy there are a few more stories like your mates...engines leaning forward to the FO...who had been ignored by the skipper...and said the counts waiting for you to call him sir.
My group in SR had problems because they had a couple of ex RAF captains who were the same.
I had a phone call from John Longly...a great guy whom I hadn't seen for three years...it started off with "Ace my neighbour says you are a count"... His neighbour was one of those on the SR 747 ..in today's money on about 250 grand..took me several years to find out what he was like..he got his FO to pay for his coffee with "I only carry sterling and dollars....the Swiss franc is a sh@t currency".
The difference is that you could say that in BOAC and get away with it...you were even expected to...I remember the rubber plantation 747 report ..KL..but in BEA there was a group of vindictive bar stewards who would do their best to get you thrown out.
It happened to George Childs who had spoken out at the inquiry and it is why no one dared to mention the "new" stall procedure amendment.
You have to remember the power Owens and his mates have...the changes on the Trident which destroyed it's sales potential...when did it go..1985 whilst the VC10 bowed out last year.
Also the changes demanded on the Tristar.
The corporal tried to sack me a few times because I took redress of grievance and won it against the deputy master.
Last year heard a story from a boy pilot on the 707... Something like 18 sectors of which the Sfo had done two ...captains said after the final one at LHR.."I think I have just done a great landing or words to that effect"... Northern SFO says I should effing hope so you've done 16 of the buggars on this trip"
My group in SR had problems because they had a couple of ex RAF captains who were the same.
I had a phone call from John Longly...a great guy whom I hadn't seen for three years...it started off with "Ace my neighbour says you are a count"... His neighbour was one of those on the SR 747 ..in today's money on about 250 grand..took me several years to find out what he was like..he got his FO to pay for his coffee with "I only carry sterling and dollars....the Swiss franc is a sh@t currency".
The difference is that you could say that in BOAC and get away with it...you were even expected to...I remember the rubber plantation 747 report ..KL..but in BEA there was a group of vindictive bar stewards who would do their best to get you thrown out.
It happened to George Childs who had spoken out at the inquiry and it is why no one dared to mention the "new" stall procedure amendment.
You have to remember the power Owens and his mates have...the changes on the Trident which destroyed it's sales potential...when did it go..1985 whilst the VC10 bowed out last year.
Also the changes demanded on the Tristar.
The corporal tried to sack me a few times because I took redress of grievance and won it against the deputy master.
Last year heard a story from a boy pilot on the 707... Something like 18 sectors of which the Sfo had done two ...captains said after the final one at LHR.."I think I have just done a great landing or words to that effect"... Northern SFO says I should effing hope so you've done 16 of the buggars on this trip"
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..the changes on the Trident which destroyed it's sales potential...when did it go..1985 whilst the VC10 bowed out last year.
Oh, and of course by then the 727, T3 sized from the start, had taken the world market!
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Very similar to SirFreddie, I too have enjoyed reaing this thread. In the 70's through to the early 1980's, I would regularly fly as a passenger on the Tridents mostly routing MAN-LHR-IST. I was always looked after well by BEA staff and my experiences were that they were a good airline. Therefore this thread is really interesting for me to know the politics beyond the cockpit door!
On another note and I believe that it has been mentioned earlier in this thread I was at Istanbul airport in 1976 due to catch the return leg of G-AWZT when it went down over Zagreb. We were initially told for 2 hours that it had been delayed for techinical reasons before the local press descended on the airport to announce the terrible news. Very sad day indeed especially for the awaiting relatives at the other end not to mention to crew and passengers on board both the aircraft.
Anyhow great nostalgic thread folks, even if at times it touches a morbid topic. Thanks Fly.Buy
On another note and I believe that it has been mentioned earlier in this thread I was at Istanbul airport in 1976 due to catch the return leg of G-AWZT when it went down over Zagreb. We were initially told for 2 hours that it had been delayed for techinical reasons before the local press descended on the airport to announce the terrible news. Very sad day indeed especially for the awaiting relatives at the other end not to mention to crew and passengers on board both the aircraft.
Anyhow great nostalgic thread folks, even if at times it touches a morbid topic. Thanks Fly.Buy