G-ARPI - The Trident Tragedy: 40 years ago today
Sadly BEA pilots of the time believe they were the best inspite of EIGHT crashes in my six years - 248 dead.
Hard to see how piloting skills were relevant to those events.
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I was employed by BEA then BA in the 60's and 70's and to be honest a large number of the Captains were among the most arrogant and ill-mannered aircrew I have ever worked with.Many of them seemed to think they they were still in the Airforce and that we in maintenance were some kind of serfs.On one occasion I had had enough of being screamed at and spoke to my shop steward who advised me to tell the gentleman that neither he nor his aircraft would be leaving GLA until an apology was forthcoming - it was, with the excuse that his flight manager was giving him a hard time regarding his fuel burn.I left BA in 1977 and went out into the real world where I learned how to work in the real world.
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It's interesting to read your post, bcgallacher. I remember 'The Glasgow Apology' story.
Many of the 'wartime' captains were dictatorial, arrogant, superior, and worst of all - poor pilots. Oh, sure, brave as lions, but chosen to fly, originally, as cannon-fodder. Having survived the war they thought they were God's gift to aviation.
I experienced the RAF pilot training 'machine' in the 60s. Even then, the training was poor, the attitude straight out of a bullying public school prefects' mess, and the entire atmosphere unprofessional. It probably explains the dreadful accident rate in the RAF. That is, excluding the low-level FJ accidents, which of course are understandable.
Many of the 'old' BEA captains were incapable of providing leadership, setting an example, or even working with other people in any capacity. We were led, however, by their fellow-travellers 'from the old squadron', who protected their mates, whatever their inadequacies.
Some of those old captains were inspirational, but many were a nightmare to work with, and an accident waiting to happen.
Many of the 'wartime' captains were dictatorial, arrogant, superior, and worst of all - poor pilots. Oh, sure, brave as lions, but chosen to fly, originally, as cannon-fodder. Having survived the war they thought they were God's gift to aviation.
I experienced the RAF pilot training 'machine' in the 60s. Even then, the training was poor, the attitude straight out of a bullying public school prefects' mess, and the entire atmosphere unprofessional. It probably explains the dreadful accident rate in the RAF. That is, excluding the low-level FJ accidents, which of course are understandable.
Many of the 'old' BEA captains were incapable of providing leadership, setting an example, or even working with other people in any capacity. We were led, however, by their fellow-travellers 'from the old squadron', who protected their mates, whatever their inadequacies.
Some of those old captains were inspirational, but many were a nightmare to work with, and an accident waiting to happen.
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My mate remembers a BOAC VC10 Captain at Manchester in the '60s. Red cap comes onto the flight deck, "papers to sign please skip". No response at all from the LH seat. He ignores the Red cap and instructs the P2 on technique instead.
"Skipper, can you sign the papers please?".
No response, even though the inter-pilot conversation has now ceased.
"scuse me skipper, can you sign the papers plese?"
Again,as far as the Captian is concerned the Red cap may as well not exist. At that point the P2 turned to the Red cap saying "I think the c*nt's waiting for you to call him 'Sir'".
"Skipper, can you sign the papers please?".
No response, even though the inter-pilot conversation has now ceased.
"scuse me skipper, can you sign the papers plese?"
Again,as far as the Captian is concerned the Red cap may as well not exist. At that point the P2 turned to the Red cap saying "I think the c*nt's waiting for you to call him 'Sir'".
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On the flight deck of a Trident with my shift boss trying to de-brief a captain regarding a technical problem -young first officer keeps interrupting,in final desperation my boss turned to him and said ' Son,I'm talking to the organ grinder not his monkey'
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BEA, yup only set up and trained Lufhansa, my ex boss was a team leader there just happened he was the Flight Manager of our St. Trinians outfit at our little airport in the coutry called Gatwick. Best bunch of crews I've worked with, even with ****e in DAM 
And yes I was in the office at LGW when "PI" hit the ****e farm .... Want to argue ? then you can give me a call, nbr via PM...
And yes I was in the office at LGW when "PI" hit the ****e farm .... Want to argue ? then you can give me a call, nbr via PM...
Last edited by merlinxx; 6th Jan 2013 at 12:14.
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merlinxx BEA, yup only set up and trained Lufhansa, my ex boss was a team leader there just happened he was the Flight Manager of our St. Trinians outfit at our little airport in the coutry called Gatwick. Best bunch of crews I've worked with, even with ****e in DAM 
And yes I was in the office at LGW when "PI" hit the ****e farm .... Want to argue ? then you can give me a call, nbr via PM...
And yes I was in the office at LGW when "PI" hit the ****e farm .... Want to argue ? then you can give me a call, nbr via PM...
Merlin, I don't know what you're on, but can you please send me some?
I remember the PI incident well, at that time, I was a co-pilot on VC10s. Since this was also a T-tailed aircraft we were naturally also concerned about deep stalls and the effects of retracting leading edge devices by mistake. From what I have read about the Trident the VC10 was a much more forgiving aircraft - it had leading edge slats rather then droops. Furthermore, they took some 20secs to retract and the slat lever was mechanically locked to the flap lever so that in normal operation it could not be operated seperately. In abnormal conditions these levers could be unlocked and operated independently. Another advantage was the time the slats took to retract, even if they were retracted without the trailing edge flaps the aircraft was able to accelerate sufficiently rapidly to avoid the stall. Our training department undertook several tests to verify this.
I also knew Simon Ticehurt's parents who were devastated not only by the loss of their son but also by all the various issues that crept out of the woodwork after the event - as described succinctly by Blind Pew.
In the 1970s CRM had not been invented. There were good captains and there were bad ones - mostly good, but on some occasions the atmosphere on the flight deck could be distinctly icy. We had our share of bad eggs in BOAC too.
However, I think the BEA operating philosophy protected inadequate captains far too much. When later I was a training captain on 747s in the early 1980s, we had a large number of failures on conversion courses of senior Trident captains who wanted to come to 747s at the end of their careers to earn more pay and thus increase their pensions. It seemed to me that too many of them had been 'carried' by their copilots and protected by a familiar limited route structure and good ATC. Some, who had been almost exclusively flying the shuttle, knew little else other than Amber 1.
The 747 was a real pussycat to handle, but it did have multiple electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic systems, a fairly complicated fuel system, five flap settings and a poor autoland system, especially on the -100 series aircraft. Despite its very good handling qualities too many of the ex-Trident captains could not cope with the system complexities, the wide-flung route structure and the sometimes non-existant ATC. There is a substantial difference between flying in Africa, in the Arctic and over the oceans when compared to flying in well-equipped continental airspace such as Europe. The tactical issues are different and rather more complex.
Our management at the time came under considerable pressure, mainly from the ex-BEA brigade, who thought we were being unfair to these pilots. But the fact was that too many of them simply could not cope. Blind Pew has hit the nail on the head in his various posts!
I also knew Simon Ticehurt's parents who were devastated not only by the loss of their son but also by all the various issues that crept out of the woodwork after the event - as described succinctly by Blind Pew.
In the 1970s CRM had not been invented. There were good captains and there were bad ones - mostly good, but on some occasions the atmosphere on the flight deck could be distinctly icy. We had our share of bad eggs in BOAC too.
However, I think the BEA operating philosophy protected inadequate captains far too much. When later I was a training captain on 747s in the early 1980s, we had a large number of failures on conversion courses of senior Trident captains who wanted to come to 747s at the end of their careers to earn more pay and thus increase their pensions. It seemed to me that too many of them had been 'carried' by their copilots and protected by a familiar limited route structure and good ATC. Some, who had been almost exclusively flying the shuttle, knew little else other than Amber 1.
The 747 was a real pussycat to handle, but it did have multiple electrical, hydraulic and pneumatic systems, a fairly complicated fuel system, five flap settings and a poor autoland system, especially on the -100 series aircraft. Despite its very good handling qualities too many of the ex-Trident captains could not cope with the system complexities, the wide-flung route structure and the sometimes non-existant ATC. There is a substantial difference between flying in Africa, in the Arctic and over the oceans when compared to flying in well-equipped continental airspace such as Europe. The tactical issues are different and rather more complex.
Our management at the time came under considerable pressure, mainly from the ex-BEA brigade, who thought we were being unfair to these pilots. But the fact was that too many of them simply could not cope. Blind Pew has hit the nail on the head in his various posts!
Last edited by Bergerie1; 8th Jan 2013 at 10:10.
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Bergeire1,
You have hit the nail smack-on. I knew a Trident captain who failed his 747 conversion. He was a super guy, but had spent years flying Shuttle. The 'Shuttle Back-up' pay was outstanding, and the work almost non-existent. He had the seniority to avoid almost all other routes. Further, he needed looking after in the air.
Having switched to longhaul myself after many years being feather-bedded in radar-controlled and ILS-infested Europe, I had the biggest shock of my life. Particularly, as you say, in the Dark Continent.
I found the level of ability and professionalism in longhaul to be considerably higher than shorthaul, with obvious exceptions of course. I guess it was just a more demanding environment. I think one exception to the above were the 'Fewdals' - flat earth w dabbling at longhaul, who went to the 747-400 for their last few years. They only flew a couple of routes, spent most of the time in a bunk, and had an ILS at each terminus!
You have hit the nail smack-on. I knew a Trident captain who failed his 747 conversion. He was a super guy, but had spent years flying Shuttle. The 'Shuttle Back-up' pay was outstanding, and the work almost non-existent. He had the seniority to avoid almost all other routes. Further, he needed looking after in the air.
Having switched to longhaul myself after many years being feather-bedded in radar-controlled and ILS-infested Europe, I had the biggest shock of my life. Particularly, as you say, in the Dark Continent.
I found the level of ability and professionalism in longhaul to be considerably higher than shorthaul, with obvious exceptions of course. I guess it was just a more demanding environment. I think one exception to the above were the 'Fewdals' - flat earth w dabbling at longhaul, who went to the 747-400 for their last few years. They only flew a couple of routes, spent most of the time in a bunk, and had an ILS at each terminus!
Aileron Drag,
I am so glad you back me up on this, sometimes I thought I was getting a bit paranoid. The blokes themselves were usually super guys but just couldn't cope with the change of environment. Also, in long haul flying, fuel management and tactical planning were so much more important, especially when doing re-flightplanning operations from Hong Kong to London on the 747-200 before the -400 came on line.
I have nothing against the chaps but BEA management left a lot to be desired!
I am so glad you back me up on this, sometimes I thought I was getting a bit paranoid. The blokes themselves were usually super guys but just couldn't cope with the change of environment. Also, in long haul flying, fuel management and tactical planning were so much more important, especially when doing re-flightplanning operations from Hong Kong to London on the 747-200 before the -400 came on line.
I have nothing against the chaps but BEA management left a lot to be desired!
Sorry to see that this thread is deteriorating into the old BOAC versus BEA debate which some of us tried to leave behind in the 70s.
There was a significant difference in the training philosophy of the ex components of BA. BEA philosophy on conversions was to teach at the beginning of the course and gradually withdraw support with progress. There seemed to be more of a "You prove to me you can do it and I point out where you go wrong" approach from too many trainers on the other side - which some short haul candidates (used to a different approach) found intimidating and confidence-sapping.
For what it is worth, I came to longhaul in the twilight of my career and found it much more relaxing than hectic four (sometimes five) sector days in Europe. And yes - that did include Lagos as well as JFK and O' Hare etc.
Pilots are much of a muchness wherever - so let's give the tribalism a rest.
There was a significant difference in the training philosophy of the ex components of BA. BEA philosophy on conversions was to teach at the beginning of the course and gradually withdraw support with progress. There seemed to be more of a "You prove to me you can do it and I point out where you go wrong" approach from too many trainers on the other side - which some short haul candidates (used to a different approach) found intimidating and confidence-sapping.
For what it is worth, I came to longhaul in the twilight of my career and found it much more relaxing than hectic four (sometimes five) sector days in Europe. And yes - that did include Lagos as well as JFK and O' Hare etc.
Pilots are much of a muchness wherever - so let's give the tribalism a rest.
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Well, Scotbill, you sure can't call me tribal. I'm yer actual hybrid or, if you prefer, mongrel. First 18 years BEA/BAED/Shorthaul, then longhaul (via what was in reality still BCal.)
I found it a very big challenge having to make the tactical decisions mentioned by Bergerie1, and even Lagos had a (wonky) ILS and half-a-dozen runway lights! At quite a few destinations you were lucky if you had a VOR or NDB. It was just so basic - that was what caused my own culture-shock.
However, you're quite right to point out the essential 'sameness' of pilots. The ill-feeling that existed back then was very unpleasant.
For old time's sake, have a pint of heavy and a chix vindaloo for me, preferably at the Koh-i-Noor!
I found it a very big challenge having to make the tactical decisions mentioned by Bergerie1, and even Lagos had a (wonky) ILS and half-a-dozen runway lights! At quite a few destinations you were lucky if you had a VOR or NDB. It was just so basic - that was what caused my own culture-shock.
However, you're quite right to point out the essential 'sameness' of pilots. The ill-feeling that existed back then was very unpleasant.
For old time's sake, have a pint of heavy and a chix vindaloo for me, preferably at the Koh-i-Noor!
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I thought it might be helpful to post a link to a photo of a Trident cockpit:
DSC_0333 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
It's a Trident Two rather than the One that PI was, so maybe there are some differences-I don't know, as I'm not a pilot. And if anyone can add to the fascinating first comment on the photo, I'd be very interested to read that.
DSC_0333 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
It's a Trident Two rather than the One that PI was, so maybe there are some differences-I don't know, as I'm not a pilot. And if anyone can add to the fascinating first comment on the photo, I'd be very interested to read that.
75m RVR and 14' DH for Cat III
The 75m RVR was not an aircraft limitation but dictated by the Fire Service at LHR as they could not guarantee finding an aircraft in less.
The Trident also could take off in 75m - being fitted with rolling horizontal barber pole indicators (PVD) linked to the ILS
The 75m RVR was not an aircraft limitation but dictated by the Fire Service at LHR as they could not guarantee finding an aircraft in less.
The Trident also could take off in 75m - being fitted with rolling horizontal barber pole indicators (PVD) linked to the ILS