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Falklands Crash Sites

Old 25th Nov 2008, 09:20
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Edmund,

Sorry - you missunderstood me - I think the entire thread is wonderful. Coming as it does at Xmas, I hope it continues to bring highly skilled, former foes together who were just normal blokes, flung into an extraordinary situation against each other at the same time. You have nothing to apologise for, and I shall choose my words more carefully the next time.

Regards,

Al
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 11:47
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Edmund and Al R, thanks for the welcome.

About the fourth Dagger, there is a testimony of this mission in spanish, written by him in one of captain Carballo´s book (the most famous argentienan A-4B pilot). I think it was "Dios y los Halcones" or "Halcones sobre Malvinas". Carballo´s book are plenty of first hand accounts principally from pilots just after the war finished, so they have a real historic interest.

1st Lt Callejo was a lucky man that day. He survived a Bomb Alley fly, then a second encounter with the most lethal SAM combination (Sea Dart from T-42+ Sea Wolf from T-22), and third, and unknown for him cause didn´t see you, a Sea Harrier pursuit. He was a solitary shooter. In his first mission on may 21 he was number 3 of Laucha flight. His two fellows attacked Ardent while he faced HMS Brilliant alone hitting her with cannon fire and a near miss bomb, avoiding a Sea Wolf from HMS Broadsword. He succesfully returned home. This flight is very famous cause Sharkey Ward was listening HMS Brilliant air controller when was hit by Callejo. The second flight from San Julian air base, just a minute later than Laucha, was then intercepted by Ward/Thomas, downing all three planes.

A similar situation happened on 24th May. The flight just after him from the same base (Oro) was intercepted by you, while they (Plata) could attack. Callejo attacked alone again. This time, an orange fuel tank in land. While his two fellows went for HMS Arrow. They scape for another route while Callejo decided to look for a north way to home.

It would be pretty you to contact him cause I´me sure none knows about this I´ve told you as Callejo never saw any Sea Harrier and you never identified the fourth Dagger. In my opinion Callejo is one of the most brilliant argentinean pilots and simultaneously one of the most unknown one. 21st may HMS Brilliant attack has always been erroniously pointed to other Dagger flight while his dangerous mission on 24th may is also little known.

I checked time needed to fly from San Carlos entrance (where his testimony says he listened Oro advice), get into the north bay, turn left towards Dolphin Cape and the towards west, cross the sound and being over Pebble island and think can be made in one minute flying almost supersonically, as Dagger made. So if he heard the moment in which Castillo warned firstly his fellows about Sea Harriers and then you spent some seconds (half a minute perhaps?) to shoot the last AIM-9L, then it´s possible you would spend the other seconds until you found the fourth Dagger.

Regards

Last edited by jualbo; 25th Nov 2008 at 12:11.
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 12:08
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Spencer Mr Ar I

Goog morning Sir

Its an Honor to read you -

Let me see who has the translation of the conversations between Garcia Cuerva and the Air Force Radar ( Westinghouse ANTPS 43 )

Regards Enrique

Juanballbo thank you very much for your help , I have suggested Tanoarg to come by and provide us whith what his got - Juanbalbo do you have the link to the Westinghouse radar with the conversation between Mayor Silva and Captain Garcia Cuerva ?

Thanks Enrique
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 12:21
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Hi again:
http://www.radarmalvinas.com.ar/desc...facsimiles.pdf

Page 18 of the pdf document.
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 14:14
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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About Ardiles-Hale/Penfold:

There are reports from British side about a second Dagger. in fact Rubio flight was a lone Dagger (the second had technical failures prior to take off). But I have a report from another lone Dagger that day. He was Captain Díaz. The pilot you downed on 24th may. He flew a mission with a radio call sign "Fierro". He had the same problem with his wingman that Ardiles. He took off alone.

I don´t know the exact time of his flight but he informed about an interception of an unkown air target over Darwin. I put his words in spanish and will try to translate:

"Cuando me encontraba nuevamente sobre las islas a las cuales pude distinguir a través de un orificio en las nubes (vi el Canal San Carlos y la zona de Darwin) el operador me informó de un ataque aéreo que el enemigo realizaba -con los Sea Harrier- sobre Puerto Argentino."
"When I was overflying the islands again, which I could see through a gap in the clouds (I saw Falkland Sound and Darwin area), the air controller informed about an air attack by Sea Harrier on Stanley."
"Le pregunté si me dirigía hacia allí, respondiéndome negativamente porque los incursores se encontraban dentro del sector de nuestra defensa antiaérea."
"I asked him if I had to go there, answering me not to go cause attackers were in the air defense engagement zone."
"Seguidamente me alertó sobre la presencia de un eco que se dirigía hacia mí, desde el Sureste a gran velocidad y tomando altura. El mismo fue detectado cuando se encontraba a 18 millas, giré hacia el Sur para adoptar un rumbo de colisión y mantuve una altitud de 26.000 pies, acelerando para 450 nudos, me dediqué a observar los instrumentos por última vez antes del cruce y con aprensión descubrí que no me quedaban más de 5 minutos de combustible para llegar al mínimo nivel requerido para el largo regreso."
"Shortly he advised me about an echo heading to me from the SE raising at
high speed. It was detected 18 miles away and I turned south to take an interception course keeping my height at 26000 feet and increasing the speed to 450 knots, while I looked at my instruments for last time before the cross, noticing that I hardly had 5 minutes of fuel remaining to get the bingo status necessary for the long way back."
"Cuando nos separaban (con el o los incursores) unas 8 millas y estando unos 3.000 pies más arriba que él, decidió, abandonar la entrada en combate, probablemente porque no tenía una posición ventajosa; lo cierto es que descendió rápidamente hasta que nuestro radar perdió su eco."

"When I was separated (from him or them) around 8 miles and flying 3000 feet higher, he decided to abort the combat, probably for not being in a better position; anyway he went down fastly until our radar lost its echo."
"Me esforcé en tratar de visualizarlo, sin perder mi ventajosa altura, pero no lo logré, en esto escuché la voz del controlador que me preguntaba cuánto tiempo más podría permanecer sobre las islas, contestándole que había llegado el momento de regresar por falta de combustible."
"I tried to look for him without going down from my better upper position but couldn´t find it, when listened the air controller voice asking me how long I could stay over the islands, answering him that it was time to come back due fuel lack."
"Me deseó buena suerte y me dio el rumbo a casa; ascendí hasta el nivel óptimo para el regreso y concebí, durante el largo retorno esta equivocada idea: los ingleses rehuyen el combate aéreo."
"He wished me good luck and told me the home course; I went up to my optimal fly level to come back and thought, during my long way back, this wrong idea: English refused the air combat."
"Algunos días más tarde sufriría la propia experiencia de ser derribado, junto a toda mi escuadrilla por dos aviones Sea Harrier, cuando yo estaba por atacar la cabeza de playa de Puerto San Carlos."
"Some days after this I would suffer in my own the experience of being downed with all my flight by two Sea Harriers when were in an attack mission against the beach head."

It would be interesting to know the exact time of this mission. Some times, the overfly of Stanley airport was considered by air controllers as an air attack. This lonely flight didn´t happen during the early morning attacks by Sea Harrier against Stanley runaway by Sea Harrier, so the mention to it is probably the case I say.

If you keep in contact with captain Díaz perhaps he can confirm the time of this encounter.

Regards

PS: the link you asked:
http://www.radarmalvinas.com.ar/desc...facsimiles.pdf
Page 18 of the PDF document

Last edited by jualbo; 25th Nov 2008 at 17:00.
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Old 25th Nov 2008, 15:35
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Jason Islands

In the late 1980s, I was flying Chinooks in FI. The Jason Islands were off limits to us as they were a nature conservancy site. However, on this occasion, some scientists were maronned on, as I recall, Steeple Jason, and were running out of food, water and ideas. So I was tasked with flying in there to recover them.

Steeple Jason was a formidable sight, rising out of the sea a bit like a circular saw on a saw bench. I just managed to get my aft wheels and ramp on the very narrow ridge along the top, and the scientists scrambled aboard. Meanwhile, the front of the ac, with me, was hovering over free air. I recall glancing down, watching the large numbers of sealions gambolling about. As I lifted off, I said to the crew that we would descend to low level to see the sealions on our way out.

As I was descending and turning right, parallel to the ridge line, something caught my eye on the almost vertical rock face on my right. As I looked, there, in all its glory, was the imprint of an Argentinian fighter, which had clearly carried out a classic CFIT into a cliff face! At the base of the cliff, I could see more metallic parts, but I could not stay around to work out whether it was a Skyhawk or a Dagger.
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 06:42
  #67 (permalink)  
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KG86
Thanks for this. Navaleye mentions this incident earlier in the Thread (21) and would no doubt be interested.
Jualbo.
Interesting post. Thank you.
I daresay, if Raul Diaz had been in the same piece of sky as Ardilles and Hale he would have seen the missile launch and mentioned it. Is it likely the two pilots could be intercepting the same target unknown to each other?
This may have happened with Eyton-Jones and Curtis at low level on our side but we will never know for sure.
What would be very useful would be a time line of who was airborne where and when during the conflict so we could put some names and faces to stories like these. I wonder who was approaching Diaz? It is highly unlikely he was alone as we always used to operate in pairs. Interesting the controller only mentions one contact. What would Diaz have been armed with in this instance? Cannon and Shaffrir?
ES
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 13:17
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Mr Spencer

Good morning Sir

Were you on the first Air strick at the Falklands Airport on the early morning of May 01-

Thank you
Regards Enrique
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 13:35
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Hi again Edmund. I could find some aditional info about Díaz and his participation on 1 may events. According to Núñez Padín (argentinean aviation historician), he took off at 12:00 from San Julian while Ardiles made it at 15:45 from Río Grande. So aparently they weren´t in the air at the same time. Díaz overflew the islands almost the same hour that a CAP of Daggers (Bernhardt-Mir González) from Río Grande with the radio call sign "Limon" that took off at 12:30 (Río Grande was nearer the islands than San Julian). This CAP had an encounter with a Sea Harrier CAP (Barton-Ward). Ward thought they launched at him 3 missiles cause he saw 3 condensation trails. In fact they were trails from the 1300 litres external drop tanks from Bernhardt plane who was trying to go down for them when was stopped by his leader.

I´m beginning to think that perhaps Ardiles never fired a missile and it was a jettisoned external fuel tank (The central one. Daggers used to carry three 1300 litres external fuel tanks: two under wings and one under the belly). 10 miles exceeds Shaffir range and a head on launching doesn´t seem to be logical.

About 8th june downings I´ve always had a doubt. The identity of the ejected pilot (although never found). According to some sources he was 2nd Lt Alfredo Vázquez while others say he was Lt Juan José Arrarás. In fact he was the pilot downed in second hand by Morgan. I have some accounts talking about him as the pilot who ended the argentinean flight and the one didn´t bomb, aborting the final run. Other sources says he was one of the pilots who bombed but failed. The first down would be the pilot who aborted. I doný know. Any aditional info?

Regards.
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 18:44
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Thumbs up

Hello to everyone. I usually post in Freighter Dogs, South Asia and Spanish forums.
But some friends from Zona Militar forum told me about a post about Malvinas/Falklans war, so here I am.
I am an Argentine Freighter Dog. I am actually flying B744 SIC for CAL based in Taipei.

In the ZM forum we are wondering if the Sea Harrier has photocamera.
We have some shots from Dagger struffing runs over the UK's ships.

It would be very interesting to have some pictures from the SH combats over our airplanes.
As far as I remembered, the SH shot down using the DEFA 30mm cannon an A4Q Skyhawk on the 21st.
That day, three Argentine Navy A4Q were attacking the HMS Ardent and after hitting the ship, those were intercepted and shotted down by a SH CAP.
The first shot down was the A4Q leader, CN Phillipi, who was shotted down with a AIM9L. He could eyect and he survived the war.
The second one was TF Marquez, but in this case, the SH used the DEFA 30mm cannon. He couldn't eyect.

The last one, TN Arca, could scape badly damage from another DEFA attack but after reaching the Pto Argentino/Pt. Stanley, he couldn't lower the landing gear and according with the Argentine Procedures, he has to eyect from the A4.
The eyection was over the sea, and he was recovered by an UH1-H operated by the Argentine Army.

Another DEFA kill were the IA58 Pucara flown by the My Tomba and many Argentine Army helicopters.

Thanks for any information, specially if somebody can get those pictures.

I would like to state from the biginning that I don't have any hard feelings against the UK people. I hope the same attitude from the other side.

Cheers from Anchorage/Alaska
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Old 26th Nov 2008, 19:31
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Cosmicomet

Hi cosmicomet it's me Enrique how are you -
It must be very cold up there in Alaska , any chance you could be transfere to Key West ?

Regards Enrique
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 00:44
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Hello,
regarding sea harrier combat camera or HUD footage there has been very little that has been released and available on the internet. Incidentally the only film I ever seen is of Lt Cdr Andy Auld's sidewinder shoot on one of the Daggers on 24 May in which Edmund was the wingman! I guess he can enlighten you on more of this stuff as he would have seen or captured himself tons of similar film!

By the way I always thought it must have been quite a feeling returning on deck after a air to air shootdown and I've seen Andy Auld being carried shoulder-high after the double shootdown. Wasn't there a similar reception for the wingman or was this a case of sn commander's privilege!? Edmund?here's the link to Auld's embedded video of one of his shots (scroll down to 24 May 10:15):One of their aircraft is missing
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 00:58
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Thanks for the information. I have seen the Dagger shot down sequence in a magazine many years ago.

But there must be more of them...
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 05:50
  #74 (permalink)  
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To answer the question about the guns camera in the Shar, the simple reply is that very little footage was taken. I thinks Andy Auld's might be the only one.
The problem was, if I remember correctly, the switching for the camera. It was wired in such a way as to make a weapon's stuff up highly probable and most of us didn't have the time or inclination to include camera film in the already quite busy environment. I wasn't as simple as raising the safety catch and expecting the camera to run. (Perhaps somebody with a better memory can enlighten us.)
ES
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 05:59
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Enrique,No I did not take part in the first strike on 1st May.
Jualbo, I have corresponded with Martin Hale about this and he is very convinced a missile was shot at him. He shot two missiles himself during the conflict and saw a Sea Harrier shoot another so he knows what a missile launch looks like.
It is curious that a Shaffrir could have acquired him head on from this range.
There is some technical discussion about this in another thread in this Forum.
ES
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 07:37
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Ardiles fuel tanks were found in Lively island but don´t know the number of them. I think the down was closer to Darwin. One Pucara pilot (Lt Morales) saw it from Darwin. I have accounts from other Dagger pilots that day and it was not unsual to jettisson the two external wing tanks during the aproach and when closer to the target, the central belly tank. Happened in this way with Ardiles? Could the missile be that last drop tank? From 10 miles, the condensation trail of a still partially filled fuel tank can be confused with a missile, as Ward made. If the object followed or not an intelligence trajectory or only a ballistic one is something that witness have to tell.

Tony Penfold account also may be important. I think that read in somewhere that he attacked the Dagger when was going up after the launching.
Was HMS Glamorgan the air control ship that day? What did they see?

Regards
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 08:00
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Martin describes the missile arcing gracefully downwards and towards him with a good solid smoke trail. It could have been ballistic, I suppose, and I really do not know what the vapour trail from a partially full drop tank would look like. You are quite correct that Sharkey mistook them for missiles.
It is worth pointing out here that Martin thought he was under attack by several Mirage III's armed with semi-active front hemisphere (Matra 530?) missiles. I believe Tony Penfold called multiple hostiles during the run in which further confused the picture.
ES
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 08:14
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Jualbo,
Regarding 8 June, I couldn't say for sure which A4 pilot ejected. I have been trying to search my memory but things are fading fast! (As was the light that evening)
I think Dave Morgan was ahead and slightly to my left. I think he shot at the left hand A4 first followed by the right hand. I very nearly flew into the parachute of the ejected pilot so it may have been the right hand A4. It was only when Dave opened fire with his cannons at the third A4 that I finally got visual with him and the A4 he was shooting at! He then pulled up and out of the picture allowing me to lock and fire one of my missiles.
ES
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 11:30
  #79 (permalink)  

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Diverging slightly, at what point did the Argentine AF and Navy realise that their bombs were not fuzed correctly for low level attacks?

It is widely believed that they first heard of this problem from a BBC World Service broadcast about ships having unexploded bombs to de-fuze, however I would have thought that the Argentine pilots would have been aware of this problem very quickly from attack mission de-briefs ?
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 12:32
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Yes regarding footage the only other mention of it is primarily in Dave Morgan's book. Two instances:
The gun camera of Flt Lt Ted Ball running into Goose Green at right angles to Gordon Batt and Nick Taylor when unfortunately with gun cam operating he recorded the fate of XZ450 Shar being hit by 35mm shells. On another occasion Morgan mentions Andy Auld (again) running into the attack with Simon Hargreaves on one of the Argentinian patrol boats at a settlement on west falkland and recording the impact of 30mm shells on the boat (and very close to the settlement in the background).

One of the astonishing events of the conflict was the guns shot of Flt Lt John Leeming on an Argentinian Navy A-4Q in which Lt Marquez unfortunately died. I don't recall where I red this or whether it was an interesting coincidence when I literally bumped into Cdr Rick Jolly one day in Foyles (bookshop) in London few years back, checking out (as I do) the falklands section when I felt a big guy rubbing against my shoulder when I turned round to see Rick Jolly. At the time I had a portuguese friend with me and Cdr Jolly thought we were argentinians. He was also checking some books out having come down to London for some commemoration day. I think it was he that told me that John Leeming had literally flown through the cloud of debris, right through the middle of it in fact and was exceptionally fortunate to survive. I think he pressed the shot down to 100yards or less when the skyhawk exploded. If Mr Jolly is reading this - my salute! He even waved his wife away in order to finish with the story!

Flt Lt Leeming was a very experienced ex Lightining pilot who at the time of the Falklkands war was flying Harriers. When the notice came up for SHAR volunteers he was an obvious choice having had both harrier VSTOL experience and air intercept experience. As Cdr Jolly explained though he was so rapidly converted to the sea harrier that in the heat of the moment he couldn't recall the correct switchology to switch to sidewinders for a shot and with a rapid overtake he proceeded to shoot guns instead.
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