Falklands Crash Sites
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Navaleye
You could ask him if he ever got over the early morning wake up smells of his colleague(?) Max.
"Gas Gas Gas" springs to mind.
This bit added
He won't remember but we two had a very interesting chat about the weather whilst leaning over a ships rail. Ah well, long time ago.
Isn't it strange that when two Englishmen meet for the first time, in foreign places, that the first thing discussed is the weather.Still happens.
You could ask him if he ever got over the early morning wake up smells of his colleague(?) Max.
"Gas Gas Gas" springs to mind.
This bit added
He won't remember but we two had a very interesting chat about the weather whilst leaning over a ships rail. Ah well, long time ago.
Isn't it strange that when two Englishmen meet for the first time, in foreign places, that the first thing discussed is the weather.Still happens.
Last edited by taxydual; 6th Jan 2009 at 21:49. Reason: Added: This bit added
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Navaleye,
The aircraft handler was on the deck, with no binos, at close to sun down in the middle of alert red....if he stopped to fetch binos and look around, he should have had his rear end kicked for not doing what he was supposed to be doing.
Still, with binos, you got 11 miles and beyond...this guy got 14nm with a mk1 eyeball!
So...was the AC closer than the stipulated 14nm or the RN employed a descendant of Hawkeye as an aircraft handler on the Hermes???
The aircraft handler was on the deck, with no binos, at close to sun down in the middle of alert red....if he stopped to fetch binos and look around, he should have had his rear end kicked for not doing what he was supposed to be doing.
Still, with binos, you got 11 miles and beyond...this guy got 14nm with a mk1 eyeball!
So...was the AC closer than the stipulated 14nm or the RN employed a descendant of Hawkeye as an aircraft handler on the Hermes???
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Other Forums that have also talk about this event have reports that would suggest the distance between A/C and carriers with in the range of 2 to 5 miles at the most
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Navaleye,
I have heard that just after the Penfold/Hale vs. Ardiles combat Tony was immediately invited to a press debrief on return. Martin declined the offer.
I would be very interested to know what was said during this debrief.
Can Michael Nicholson shed any light on what was said.
ES
I have heard that just after the Penfold/Hale vs. Ardiles combat Tony was immediately invited to a press debrief on return. Martin declined the offer.
I would be very interested to know what was said during this debrief.
Can Michael Nicholson shed any light on what was said.
ES
Suspicion breeds confidence
Edmund,
I will ask Mike, maybe he was at the interview. He still speaks with Brian Hanrahan and maybe can shed some light on what TP said. Mike did the "walkover" interview with Sandy Woodward. His comments about his relationship with Lyn Middleton was very interesting. He is a neighbour of Lyn Middleton and they are friends so I could ask Lyn, via Mike to shed some light on this.
LH, strangely we talked about Robert Fox last night, but after several large glasses of Merlot I can't remember too much of what was said. I don't think he mentioned the problem you described. he did say that Bernard Hesketh the BBC camera man died a couple of years ago.
Good day from Lisbon.
Navaleye
I will ask Mike, maybe he was at the interview. He still speaks with Brian Hanrahan and maybe can shed some light on what TP said. Mike did the "walkover" interview with Sandy Woodward. His comments about his relationship with Lyn Middleton was very interesting. He is a neighbour of Lyn Middleton and they are friends so I could ask Lyn, via Mike to shed some light on this.
LH, strangely we talked about Robert Fox last night, but after several large glasses of Merlot I can't remember too much of what was said. I don't think he mentioned the problem you described. he did say that Bernard Hesketh the BBC camera man died a couple of years ago.
Good day from Lisbon.
Navaleye
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As I recall the ready room was empty apart from the BBC crew ( BH + cameraman) and TP.
I may be slightly off mark with 'empty' - Bob Reeder (DAEO 800 NAS) might have been there as we usually met up in the ready room to discuss entries in the journal that was kept there which recorded all Weapon System comments on returning SHARs - some subtle points don't always come out at an ACR debrief so I created the journal speifically for this purpose and my visit would have been normal procedure post recovery - some of the crews could be quite detailed in there analysis of what had or had not happened to their weapon systems - some could be almost flippant - Mike Blissets entry on 1 page -was simply " Good System - splashed 2 x A4's "
I may be slightly off mark with 'empty' - Bob Reeder (DAEO 800 NAS) might have been there as we usually met up in the ready room to discuss entries in the journal that was kept there which recorded all Weapon System comments on returning SHARs - some subtle points don't always come out at an ACR debrief so I created the journal speifically for this purpose and my visit would have been normal procedure post recovery - some of the crews could be quite detailed in there analysis of what had or had not happened to their weapon systems - some could be almost flippant - Mike Blissets entry on 1 page -was simply " Good System - splashed 2 x A4's "
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I remember Brian being quite protective of his Sea Harrier pilots so we may never learn the details of the interview and if that is his wish and Tony's let's leave it at that.
If my memory serves me correctly I think I remember him rescuing me from a couple of Sun reporters the night before our return into Portsmouth. I was about to tell them my life's story after one pint of CSB too many! I shudder to think of the headlines had he not intervened.
ES
If my memory serves me correctly I think I remember him rescuing me from a couple of Sun reporters the night before our return into Portsmouth. I was about to tell them my life's story after one pint of CSB too many! I shudder to think of the headlines had he not intervened.
ES
I was going to post this before Navaleye put the 14 miles post on.
According to 'The Royal Navy and the Falklands War' by David Brown (Naval Historical Branch) which has a whole chapter on the sinking of the AC, the attack came from the north west of the carrier battle group. There was one T42 (Exeter) on picket duties, 25 miles west of Invincible. Hermes was 5 miles to the north of the other carrier, with Brilliant near to Hermes playing goalkeeper. AC was five miles from both carriers, in a screen with one or more LSL's. Glamorgan and Ambuscade were up threat of the AC and LSL's. SuE's picked up 3 contacts on their pop up (Brown thinks they were Sir Tristram, Ambuscade and AC) and the Exocets were actually fired at Ambuscade (Handbrake being called by both Exeter and Ambuscade on ESM detection of the raid). The missiles were tracked by Brilliant and seen to be decoyed by Ambuscade's chaff pattern. After flying though the chaff pattern, one of the missiles reacquired a target in the shape of AC.
I haven’t got access to the book at the moment, but the account does also cover the Sea Dart firings by Invincible and the consternation caused by the missile salvos to three other battle group assets. One of them was the Hermes, the second I cannot remember and the other was one of Invincible’s own Sea Kings on ASW picket duties to the north of the group.
By the way Navaleye, according to ‘Falklands, The Air War’ Yarmouth was in the Falklands Sound area during the 25th.
According to 'The Royal Navy and the Falklands War' by David Brown (Naval Historical Branch) which has a whole chapter on the sinking of the AC, the attack came from the north west of the carrier battle group. There was one T42 (Exeter) on picket duties, 25 miles west of Invincible. Hermes was 5 miles to the north of the other carrier, with Brilliant near to Hermes playing goalkeeper. AC was five miles from both carriers, in a screen with one or more LSL's. Glamorgan and Ambuscade were up threat of the AC and LSL's. SuE's picked up 3 contacts on their pop up (Brown thinks they were Sir Tristram, Ambuscade and AC) and the Exocets were actually fired at Ambuscade (Handbrake being called by both Exeter and Ambuscade on ESM detection of the raid). The missiles were tracked by Brilliant and seen to be decoyed by Ambuscade's chaff pattern. After flying though the chaff pattern, one of the missiles reacquired a target in the shape of AC.
I haven’t got access to the book at the moment, but the account does also cover the Sea Dart firings by Invincible and the consternation caused by the missile salvos to three other battle group assets. One of them was the Hermes, the second I cannot remember and the other was one of Invincible’s own Sea Kings on ASW picket duties to the north of the group.
By the way Navaleye, according to ‘Falklands, The Air War’ Yarmouth was in the Falklands Sound area during the 25th.
Suspicion breeds confidence
MAINJAFAD,
I have no doubt you are right regarding Ambuscade not Yarmouth. Alacrity was on Circle 5 off Hermes, No matter how long I look at her reported positions I can't tally these with the others, so I have to assume it is wrong. However, if she was on Circle 5, and ACO was five or so miles from Hermes, that would make her the nearest ship and she was in fact the first to render assistance. I don't Chris Craig's account with me, but I'll dig it out when I'm back at home
I have no doubt you are right regarding Ambuscade not Yarmouth. Alacrity was on Circle 5 off Hermes, No matter how long I look at her reported positions I can't tally these with the others, so I have to assume it is wrong. However, if she was on Circle 5, and ACO was five or so miles from Hermes, that would make her the nearest ship and she was in fact the first to render assistance. I don't Chris Craig's account with me, but I'll dig it out when I'm back at home
Navaleye.
Brown states in the front of the book that no official documents were used in its compilation, but he had access to personal accounts from multiple sources and had used them. He also only listed ships on the attack axis of the carriers and the only positions given were for Exeter, Hermes and Atlantic Conveyor, relative to Invincible.
So who really knows???
Brown states in the front of the book that no official documents were used in its compilation, but he had access to personal accounts from multiple sources and had used them. He also only listed ships on the attack axis of the carriers and the only positions given were for Exeter, Hermes and Atlantic Conveyor, relative to Invincible.
So who really knows???
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I just came across this fascinating thread and it's taken a good chunk of time to read through it - well worth every minute.
I was wondering if anyone on here remembers or knows any more details about the engagement between Curtis and Broadwater against the Canberras on 1st May. I read Sharkey Ward's account and by all means it filled in a lot of gaps, as do the Argentine accounts. From what I have read, the Argentine lead crew spotted a SHAR firing, but apparently too late to take initial evasive action. This confirms Sharkey's account that the SHARs approached from behind having flown past them (unnoticed?).
We know that Alan Curtis was sadly killed with EJ on the 6th, but I would dearly like to hear Mike Broadwater's account of the attack as well. I've spent almost two years on and off trying to track him down but to no avail. There's a good chance he does not want to be found, and fair enough, a man's privacy is his own business. However, if anyone on here ever spoke or heard Mike speak about the engagement, I'd love to hear about it.
An earlier post mentioned the ARA Alferez Sobral searching for the crew of the downed B-110, and I have often wondered if they would have had any luck had they not run into the RN patrol chopper and opened fire on it. My guess is that in the south atlantic waters, the two crewmen would not have made it that long (as it was quite a few hours later I believe when the boat went out).
Anyway, all very interesting stuff on here, and many thanks to all those from both sides of the Atlantic for sharing these stories.
Steve
I was wondering if anyone on here remembers or knows any more details about the engagement between Curtis and Broadwater against the Canberras on 1st May. I read Sharkey Ward's account and by all means it filled in a lot of gaps, as do the Argentine accounts. From what I have read, the Argentine lead crew spotted a SHAR firing, but apparently too late to take initial evasive action. This confirms Sharkey's account that the SHARs approached from behind having flown past them (unnoticed?).
We know that Alan Curtis was sadly killed with EJ on the 6th, but I would dearly like to hear Mike Broadwater's account of the attack as well. I've spent almost two years on and off trying to track him down but to no avail. There's a good chance he does not want to be found, and fair enough, a man's privacy is his own business. However, if anyone on here ever spoke or heard Mike speak about the engagement, I'd love to hear about it.
An earlier post mentioned the ARA Alferez Sobral searching for the crew of the downed B-110, and I have often wondered if they would have had any luck had they not run into the RN patrol chopper and opened fire on it. My guess is that in the south atlantic waters, the two crewmen would not have made it that long (as it was quite a few hours later I believe when the boat went out).
Anyway, all very interesting stuff on here, and many thanks to all those from both sides of the Atlantic for sharing these stories.
Steve
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Atlantic Conveyor
Regarding the distance from AC to Hermes at the time of the Exocet attack - I was on the staboard bridge wing of AC at the time, clutching the stock of my machinegun that had been removed from a Wessex and welded to the edge of the bridge and hoping to have a bash at anything that came close! I am sure that we were only about 5 miles from Hermes at the time, certainly far less than 14 miles mentioned elsewhere. I also understood that it was possible that we were hit by two Exocets as it was thought that as they were fired very close together one was tracking the other.Is this possible?
Regarding the distance from AC to Hermes at the time of the Exocet attack - I was on the staboard bridge wing of AC at the time, clutching the stock of my machinegun that had been removed from a Wessex and welded to the edge of the bridge and hoping to have a bash at anything that came close! I am sure that we were only about 5 miles from Hermes at the time, certainly far less than 14 miles mentioned elsewhere. I also understood that it was possible that we were hit by two Exocets as it was thought that as they were fired very close together one was tracking the other.Is this possible?
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bast0n
Very interesting input. Thank you.
Can you give us some more information. For example, could you actually see HMS Hermes or any of the other ships from where you were on the Bridge wing?
ES
Very interesting input. Thank you.
Can you give us some more information. For example, could you actually see HMS Hermes or any of the other ships from where you were on the Bridge wing?
ES
Suspicion breeds confidence
Bast0n,
A very interesting post - thank you. The BoI report does not exclude the possibility of two Exocet hits, but cannot confirm it either. The external evidence shows just one impact hole and the eye/ear witnesses record only one initial detonation.
Now, it is possible for two Exocets to hit at the same place as their homing seekers would be identical and would seek the largest radar return. This did indeed happen with the USS Stark in the Gulf when she was hit by two air launched Exocet. The second actually flew through the ship through the damage caused by the first.
I would be very interested to hear your recollection of the attack. I appreciate you were on the other side of the ship and would not have seen the Exocet(s) inbound, however, I would be very interested to hear what warning you had any what if any evasive action the ship took prior to impact.
Best regards,
Navaleye
A very interesting post - thank you. The BoI report does not exclude the possibility of two Exocet hits, but cannot confirm it either. The external evidence shows just one impact hole and the eye/ear witnesses record only one initial detonation.
Now, it is possible for two Exocets to hit at the same place as their homing seekers would be identical and would seek the largest radar return. This did indeed happen with the USS Stark in the Gulf when she was hit by two air launched Exocet. The second actually flew through the ship through the damage caused by the first.
I would be very interested to hear your recollection of the attack. I appreciate you were on the other side of the ship and would not have seen the Exocet(s) inbound, however, I would be very interested to hear what warning you had any what if any evasive action the ship took prior to impact.
Best regards,
Navaleye
Suspicion breeds confidence
This bit added
He won't remember but we two had a very interesting chat about the weather whilst leaning over a ships rail. Ah well, long time ago.
Isn't it strange that when two Englishmen meet for the first time, in foreign places, that the first thing discussed is the weather.Still happens
He won't remember but we two had a very interesting chat about the weather whilst leaning over a ships rail. Ah well, long time ago.
Isn't it strange that when two Englishmen meet for the first time, in foreign places, that the first thing discussed is the weather.Still happens
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Atalantic Conveyor
Yes, from the bridge wing one could see nearly all round as they were huge and stuck right out. A clear view of all the ships around, firing chaff and being very warlike was not only possible but quite entertaining. A bit like watching a war movie being made! We were a bit detached from reality as we did not have the tactical updates that everyone else had, lack of tactical radios and such like I would guess. Probably could have even seen over the port quarter where the Exocets came from - if we had known they were coming!! I was in the bar having a drink on Cunard prior to disembarking the next morning, we had been delayed 24 hours, and our little alarm bell went off so we had a quick swill and went to our action stations. As I said mine was on the starboard bridge wing -
You may note at the end of the day it was the only bit of the ship that did not burn and you can see my little machine gun still there! I was hoping to sharpen up some passing "pinger" with a bit of tracer but unfortunately never got the chance............
Navaleye - I do not recall the ship taking any evasive action before the impact, and we certainly had no chaff or other missile distractors fitted. The first we knew that there were things flying about was when there was an almighty thump and we looked at each other and said "what the ******was that", We soon found out.
Yes, from the bridge wing one could see nearly all round as they were huge and stuck right out. A clear view of all the ships around, firing chaff and being very warlike was not only possible but quite entertaining. A bit like watching a war movie being made! We were a bit detached from reality as we did not have the tactical updates that everyone else had, lack of tactical radios and such like I would guess. Probably could have even seen over the port quarter where the Exocets came from - if we had known they were coming!! I was in the bar having a drink on Cunard prior to disembarking the next morning, we had been delayed 24 hours, and our little alarm bell went off so we had a quick swill and went to our action stations. As I said mine was on the starboard bridge wing -
You may note at the end of the day it was the only bit of the ship that did not burn and you can see my little machine gun still there! I was hoping to sharpen up some passing "pinger" with a bit of tracer but unfortunately never got the chance............
Navaleye - I do not recall the ship taking any evasive action before the impact, and we certainly had no chaff or other missile distractors fitted. The first we knew that there were things flying about was when there was an almighty thump and we looked at each other and said "what the ******was that", We soon found out.
Last edited by bast0n; 15th Jan 2009 at 16:43.
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ARI - Very few actually jumped as the main deck was very high from the sea and we had ropes and ladders rigged. I started off down a rope ladder - it seemed a good idea as abandon ship had been ordered and my flying boots were melting! Unfortunately the ladder I chose had been cut off half way down by Alacritys heroic attempts at helping fight the fires, and as things (very hot things) were bursting out through the hull all around it seemed a good time to jump the rest of the way. Then things got very interesting......