Falklands Crash Sites
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Navaleye, great reconstruction of facts on 25th may attack.
bast0n, welcome and a really great testimony.
Navaleye, could make the same with 30th may attack? In Zona Militar forums, one of the members remembered a testimony from David Tinker in his posthumous " a Message from the Falklands", which also placed Gamorgan in the scene. He talks about the AM-39 falling to sea just 400 meters from them.
By the other hand, in key publishing forums (Historic aviation) , a Cardiff crewmember remembered his ship shotting 4,5" gun fire against the Sea Darts fired from Exeter aginst the Skyhawks. So they also had to be very close to the trajectory of these Sea Darts to be able to do so, otherwise the effective range of Vickers 4,5" gun wouldn´t let it.
So we have Exeter, Cardiff, Glamorgan, Avenger and Invincible.
What do you think?
Regards
bast0n, welcome and a really great testimony.
Navaleye, could make the same with 30th may attack? In Zona Militar forums, one of the members remembered a testimony from David Tinker in his posthumous " a Message from the Falklands", which also placed Gamorgan in the scene. He talks about the AM-39 falling to sea just 400 meters from them.
By the other hand, in key publishing forums (Historic aviation) , a Cardiff crewmember remembered his ship shotting 4,5" gun fire against the Sea Darts fired from Exeter aginst the Skyhawks. So they also had to be very close to the trajectory of these Sea Darts to be able to do so, otherwise the effective range of Vickers 4,5" gun wouldn´t let it.
So we have Exeter, Cardiff, Glamorgan, Avenger and Invincible.
What do you think?
Regards
Suspicion breeds confidence
Jualbo,
Thank you. I don't have exact positions for the 30th May attack, but I do have testimony from Capt Hugh Balfour, CO HMS Exeter, also with that of Hugo White, CO Avenger. Hugh Balfour reports engaging two low level targets with Sea Dart, the first A4 was splashed at 13 miles, the second missed, the third was hit and destroyed at 7 miles. This correlates exactly with the FAA account of the time. I will try to reconstruct this.
Exeter was the first of the batch 2 T42s and had a new and untested fire control system. She had just completed trials with the USN and although she had just taken out two target drones, her command system crashed each time. New software was sent out to the Caribbean and she sailed south, fully operational.
Having heard the reports from both COs. I have no doubt as to their accuracy.
If I can add more, I will.
Best regards,
Navaleye
Thank you. I don't have exact positions for the 30th May attack, but I do have testimony from Capt Hugh Balfour, CO HMS Exeter, also with that of Hugo White, CO Avenger. Hugh Balfour reports engaging two low level targets with Sea Dart, the first A4 was splashed at 13 miles, the second missed, the third was hit and destroyed at 7 miles. This correlates exactly with the FAA account of the time. I will try to reconstruct this.
Exeter was the first of the batch 2 T42s and had a new and untested fire control system. She had just completed trials with the USN and although she had just taken out two target drones, her command system crashed each time. New software was sent out to the Caribbean and she sailed south, fully operational.
Having heard the reports from both COs. I have no doubt as to their accuracy.
If I can add more, I will.
Best regards,
Navaleye
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bast0n:
Though not present at the time, I have heard many a tale told laughingly about a certain person who did in fact lob an SS11 into the post office. He took quite some stick for it if I remember correctly.
Best Wishes
Utrinque Apparatus - Are we thinking SS11 here?
Best Wishes
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That would be the one. However, firing a missile with it's speed calibrated in furlongs per fortnight and watching all that Swiss triple A swivelling in one's direction would tend to focus the mind ?? 
I'd hate my flip remark to distract all from a very poignant and interesting thread, but I suppose you could call the Post office a Comms HQ, of sorts ?
I'd hate my flip remark to distract all from a very poignant and interesting thread, but I suppose you could call the Post office a Comms HQ, of sorts ?
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Utrinque Apparatus - were you personally watching all the triple A? If you were your story could be a good one to tell. I may be able to get the SS11 pilot to join in - that would be fun!
Suspicion breeds confidence
I know of the story, I didn't know we had secretly developed a Stealth Wessex thast could get that close undetected. I'd like to hear more from the folks involved.
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Sorry, forgot the reference.
Falkland Islands - A history of the 1982 conflict
extract...
The period between 8 and 11 June was mainly taken up by patrolling and the moving of supplies nearer the front line in readiness for the final battles to take the high ground surrounding Stanley. On the 11, however, an unusual operation was attempted by a Wessex of 845 Squadron flown by Lieutenant Peter Manley with Petty Officer Arthur Balls acting as gunner. It was known that the Argentine High Command in the Islands met every morning at the Town Hall. The Wessex was armed with two AS12 wire-guided missiles and approached Stanley from the north under cover of the hills surrounding the harbour. Both missiles were fired, the first narrowly missed and hit the Police station, the other missile was defective and fell short, there were no casualties. By this time, anti-aircraft artillery was exploding all around the hovering Wessex, which made good its escape
Also from memory.
Falkland Islands - A history of the 1982 conflict
extract...
The period between 8 and 11 June was mainly taken up by patrolling and the moving of supplies nearer the front line in readiness for the final battles to take the high ground surrounding Stanley. On the 11, however, an unusual operation was attempted by a Wessex of 845 Squadron flown by Lieutenant Peter Manley with Petty Officer Arthur Balls acting as gunner. It was known that the Argentine High Command in the Islands met every morning at the Town Hall. The Wessex was armed with two AS12 wire-guided missiles and approached Stanley from the north under cover of the hills surrounding the harbour. Both missiles were fired, the first narrowly missed and hit the Police station, the other missile was defective and fell short, there were no casualties. By this time, anti-aircraft artillery was exploding all around the hovering Wessex, which made good its escape
Also from memory.
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How odd, the PO incident seems to have been attributed to some others [AAC] and from what you say, the crews maligned all these years might be due a substantial apology.
Untitled Document
[Go to last section bottom of page]
Best Wishes
Untitled Document
[Go to last section bottom of page]
Best Wishes
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I have emailed Peter Manley to see if he knows the difference between a Post Office and a Police Station. I hope he will post a reply soon. This is a great amd most amusing story! I do hope that more will join in with their own ditties.
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Ah Bastoon
Excellent thread, I well remember the tip clearance (or lack of) and the horrendous turbulance aft of the vast stack and the first "trash the aft guardrails with a load" trials on Conveyor!!
As for Stanley Police Stn, I dug out my diary on the event and it seems a few facts need to be aired, certainly brought back a few interesting memories. Give me a mo and I'll post what really happened - maybe a bit long though.
Excellent thread, I well remember the tip clearance (or lack of) and the horrendous turbulance aft of the vast stack and the first "trash the aft guardrails with a load" trials on Conveyor!!
As for Stanley Police Stn, I dug out my diary on the event and it seems a few facts need to be aired, certainly brought back a few interesting memories. Give me a mo and I'll post what really happened - maybe a bit long though.
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Some ten years ago I contacted a crewmember from Exeter: Andrew Mawman. He explained to me that according to his info Exeter was 12,5 miles NW from Avenger when faced the threat. And Invincible around 24 miles easter. The first A-4 was downed over 13-14 km from Avenger (7 miles) while the second A-4 was shot down and exploded around 3-4 km from the target (2 miles). Always according to FAA surviving pilots.
Both distances matches with your source if Exeter is around 5-6 miles from Avenger.
So the difference of distance from Exeter to Avenger would be around 7 miles depending on the source (12,5 Mawman and 5 Balfour).
In my opinion, and knowing that visibility was around 15 km that day according to FAA pilots (Vázquez was splashed after watching the target in the distance), 5 miles is too short. Ureta and Isaac would have watched her. And they didn´t report it. 12,5 miles is a distance that let the ship hit in the maximun Sea Dart effective range (12,5+7= 19,5 miles) and being unseen by the attackers after overflying the target (cause the visibility was around 8 miles).
Still a mistery if Glamorgan was close or not.
Regards
PD: There is a report in the argentinean book "Comandos en acción. El Ejército en Malvinas" ("Commandos in action. The Army at Falklands") by Isidoro J. Ruíz Moreno, about the Wessex attack. Argentineans green berets had their base in the building opposite the police station and believed they were the real target. I think one missile fell close to ARA Bahía Paraíso, anchored in the Bay
Both distances matches with your source if Exeter is around 5-6 miles from Avenger.
So the difference of distance from Exeter to Avenger would be around 7 miles depending on the source (12,5 Mawman and 5 Balfour).
In my opinion, and knowing that visibility was around 15 km that day according to FAA pilots (Vázquez was splashed after watching the target in the distance), 5 miles is too short. Ureta and Isaac would have watched her. And they didn´t report it. 12,5 miles is a distance that let the ship hit in the maximun Sea Dart effective range (12,5+7= 19,5 miles) and being unseen by the attackers after overflying the target (cause the visibility was around 8 miles).
Still a mistery if Glamorgan was close or not.
Regards
PD: There is a report in the argentinean book "Comandos en acción. El Ejército en Malvinas" ("Commandos in action. The Army at Falklands") by Isidoro J. Ruíz Moreno, about the Wessex attack. Argentineans green berets had their base in the building opposite the police station and believed they were the real target. I think one missile fell close to ARA Bahía Paraíso, anchored in the Bay
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Stanley Police Station
Here goes - took a bit longer than I planned but I thought you might like some of the detail.
On the 9th June I was asked by Jack Lomas if I thought I could attack a target in Stanley with AS12s – ‘Tell me more’ I heard myself say! Intelligence had established that General Menendez was having morning briefings in an upstairs room in the Town Hall in Stanley and the powers that be decided it would be a cunning plan to park a missile on his desk whilst the coffee was brewing thereby hoping to shorten the war.
The concept was conceived by Col Mike Rose and his team on Sir Lancelot and as I had the only Wessex gunship deployed from Conveyor to assist if needed with the landings it was ideally suited for the task with 2”RP, fixed fwd and cabin mounted GPMG’s and most importantly AS12’s with a range of 7000yds.
Jack and I flew to Lancelot for a fulsome briefing and we fleshed out the plan, two concerns prevailed; anti-aircraft systems around Stanley harbour and artillery. It was reckoned that two or three twin-barrelled Oerlikons (20/30mm) anti-aircraft cannon systems were somewhere along the foreshore giving protection to the harbour complex and the Artillery was scattered but predominantly to the west shelling us during the early mountain battles. The Oelikons had an MER just below my 7000yds and the artillery, at best guestimate if they were good, couldn’t acquire and get the first rounds down in less than four minutes – just enough time for me to fire 2 AS12’s and depart.
To give some understanding of the targeting and firing solution for AS12s; the a/c has to arrive at the firing position (max 7000yds from target) in a stable hover as low as possible commensurate with camouflage etc and in line-of-sight. The target then has to be acquired by the aimer through a gyro-stabilised sight which is itself joystick driven, the firing mechanism selected and 1st missile fired with a very loud bang (solid fuel propellant) trailing two thin copper wires through which the aimers control (another joystick) commands are sent – true fly-by-wire in the strictest sense, no sticking the crosshairs on the target and fire-n-forget here!! Flares at the rear of the missile aid visually in keeping the missile just above the target for most of its flight and dropping it down onto the target just before impact – control becomes increasingly difficult with distance (signal time delay) and the change in missile centre of gravity as the propellant burns giving an increasing nose-down attitude. After impact, roughly 30secs, the wires are cut and the second missile can then be selected and fired. After the wires are cut the a/c can then vacate the firing position. Practically a two missile attack should be accomplished in less than 3mins!
With all the difficulties and risks seemingly covered and minimised I concurred the mission could be done. I was a missile aimer but felt that taking two pilots, one flying and me as aimer, might be too risky as we could ill afford to lose 2 pilots, I therefore selected Arthur Balls, a fine aimer with much experience particularly at night and in twilight conditions, and considered by me as a better aimer. After briefing he agreed (I gave him the choice) to accompany me and we set about ‘tooling up’ the Wessex. The a/c systems had been checked but had yet to fire anything and as this was a fairly risky one-off I felt a practise shoot would benefit us both and prove the a/c.
10th - moving to Teal Inlet settlement was as close as we could get to the front without risk of observation. The practice shot went well knocking a chunk out of a tiny unnamed island somewhere in Teal Inlet and we returned to prep the a/c and brief an accompanying a/c that was to observe from a distance and come in to hopefully pick us up if we were shot down.
Early on the 11 June we set off flying NOE routeing past Long Island then south towards our IP in the lee of Beagle Ridge and 12 o’clock Mountain. Arthur said the sight was misting up and I briefly parked in a gulley and he managed to clear it and we carried on to our planned firing point of approximately north of the Town Hall in the lee of Beagle Ridge giving us a good backdrop and en-route making contact with the SAS up in the hills to establish that nothing was airborne and no activity to disturb our approach. It was a grey and very misty morning and we had real difficulty in finding the target and had to keep going until Stanley came out of the gloom and Arthur had a workable view of the target. I reckon we ended up at around 4-5000yds in a very high hover to get the line of sight over Cortley Hill and as all was quiet we proceeded to engage the target. The launch was uneventful but lit up the gloom like a beacon and made a seemingly greater racket than usual.
Arthur called ‘impact’ and as far as he could tell it was on target; as nothing had moved and with no activity ahead of us we fired the second missile at the secondary target a Chinook parked by Government House that apparently was grounded but we needed to make sure. Just as it left the rail our comfort zone was rudely interrupted as the world and his dog started throwing all sorts in our direction luckily none too accurate but definitely well within range and traversing back and forth towards us as though searching the gloom for us.
Arthur couldn’t see what was going on from behind the sight but keeping still in a hover for 30secs is a bit unnerving in a regular fireworks display including tracer. At about 20secs he called ‘lost control’ and ‘fallen short’ and he cut the wires and upon stowing the sight let out few choice words at the illuminations outside which by this time were all around. With the collective now under my armpit we shot out of there like a grouse on the Glorious Twelfth just as the first artillery rounds started coming down. We made it back to Teal Inlet for a cup of tea (terribly British) and a wind down with the realisation we had got away with it. Eventually the other a/c pitched up, they had seen the shelling and had been trying to get close to our position which was obscured by smoke and debris from the artillery to ascertain our status and were much relieved to see us back.
We heard that we had missed the Town Hall with the 1st missile and were somewhat deflated but cheered by a report from the BBC (and the NY Times on the 12th) reporting that the Argentines were complaining that their hospital ship, the Bahia Paraiso alongside in Stanley, had been attacked by a missile from a British a/c. Our 2nd AS12 had either snagged its wires over the ridge or been cut by explosion and given the default command is down and right it went into the harbour just short, a pity really as it opened fire the following night on an SBS patrol – so much for Red Cross immunity.
Stanley fell on the 14th and I went to see the results of our attack. The Town Hall looked in rude health but the Police Station was not so, although the walls were intact with a small entry hole the interior was trashed – typical of an AS12 designed delayed detonation after piercing the outer shell. I spoke to a lady living down the street who went out to investigate the bang to see a cartoon-like scene of smoking people staggering out of the Police Station – and she said it certainly raised morale as the story went around.
I discovered that the fireworks were caused by the artillery using the 105 mm OTO-Melara Mod 56 field guns and the anti-aircraft cannons were the Rheinmetall 20 mm Twin-barrelled Anti-Aircraft Cannon using HEI-T(High Explosive Incendiary with Tracer) and SAPHEI (Semi-Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary) sporting eh!!
I paced out the track of the missile and it missed the Town Hall by as little as a yard and went down a side street crossed the main road and into the Police Station. It turned out Menendez did not have a meeting that morning, fortuitously and more importantly the hall was used as valuable accommodation in the aftermath and crucially the Post Office remained intact – can’t have mail interrupted in times of crisis! Moreover the Police Station was occupied by the Military Intelligence with a particularly nasty piece of work (can't remember his name) who delighted in hassling the civilian population.
We understood that the attack had given them a real shock in that we could seemingly pick off a target in the middle of town with such accuracy and thus placed doubt in their minds and had indeed helped to hasten the end.
On the 9th June I was asked by Jack Lomas if I thought I could attack a target in Stanley with AS12s – ‘Tell me more’ I heard myself say! Intelligence had established that General Menendez was having morning briefings in an upstairs room in the Town Hall in Stanley and the powers that be decided it would be a cunning plan to park a missile on his desk whilst the coffee was brewing thereby hoping to shorten the war.
The concept was conceived by Col Mike Rose and his team on Sir Lancelot and as I had the only Wessex gunship deployed from Conveyor to assist if needed with the landings it was ideally suited for the task with 2”RP, fixed fwd and cabin mounted GPMG’s and most importantly AS12’s with a range of 7000yds.
Jack and I flew to Lancelot for a fulsome briefing and we fleshed out the plan, two concerns prevailed; anti-aircraft systems around Stanley harbour and artillery. It was reckoned that two or three twin-barrelled Oerlikons (20/30mm) anti-aircraft cannon systems were somewhere along the foreshore giving protection to the harbour complex and the Artillery was scattered but predominantly to the west shelling us during the early mountain battles. The Oelikons had an MER just below my 7000yds and the artillery, at best guestimate if they were good, couldn’t acquire and get the first rounds down in less than four minutes – just enough time for me to fire 2 AS12’s and depart.
To give some understanding of the targeting and firing solution for AS12s; the a/c has to arrive at the firing position (max 7000yds from target) in a stable hover as low as possible commensurate with camouflage etc and in line-of-sight. The target then has to be acquired by the aimer through a gyro-stabilised sight which is itself joystick driven, the firing mechanism selected and 1st missile fired with a very loud bang (solid fuel propellant) trailing two thin copper wires through which the aimers control (another joystick) commands are sent – true fly-by-wire in the strictest sense, no sticking the crosshairs on the target and fire-n-forget here!! Flares at the rear of the missile aid visually in keeping the missile just above the target for most of its flight and dropping it down onto the target just before impact – control becomes increasingly difficult with distance (signal time delay) and the change in missile centre of gravity as the propellant burns giving an increasing nose-down attitude. After impact, roughly 30secs, the wires are cut and the second missile can then be selected and fired. After the wires are cut the a/c can then vacate the firing position. Practically a two missile attack should be accomplished in less than 3mins!
With all the difficulties and risks seemingly covered and minimised I concurred the mission could be done. I was a missile aimer but felt that taking two pilots, one flying and me as aimer, might be too risky as we could ill afford to lose 2 pilots, I therefore selected Arthur Balls, a fine aimer with much experience particularly at night and in twilight conditions, and considered by me as a better aimer. After briefing he agreed (I gave him the choice) to accompany me and we set about ‘tooling up’ the Wessex. The a/c systems had been checked but had yet to fire anything and as this was a fairly risky one-off I felt a practise shoot would benefit us both and prove the a/c.
10th - moving to Teal Inlet settlement was as close as we could get to the front without risk of observation. The practice shot went well knocking a chunk out of a tiny unnamed island somewhere in Teal Inlet and we returned to prep the a/c and brief an accompanying a/c that was to observe from a distance and come in to hopefully pick us up if we were shot down.
Early on the 11 June we set off flying NOE routeing past Long Island then south towards our IP in the lee of Beagle Ridge and 12 o’clock Mountain. Arthur said the sight was misting up and I briefly parked in a gulley and he managed to clear it and we carried on to our planned firing point of approximately north of the Town Hall in the lee of Beagle Ridge giving us a good backdrop and en-route making contact with the SAS up in the hills to establish that nothing was airborne and no activity to disturb our approach. It was a grey and very misty morning and we had real difficulty in finding the target and had to keep going until Stanley came out of the gloom and Arthur had a workable view of the target. I reckon we ended up at around 4-5000yds in a very high hover to get the line of sight over Cortley Hill and as all was quiet we proceeded to engage the target. The launch was uneventful but lit up the gloom like a beacon and made a seemingly greater racket than usual.
Arthur called ‘impact’ and as far as he could tell it was on target; as nothing had moved and with no activity ahead of us we fired the second missile at the secondary target a Chinook parked by Government House that apparently was grounded but we needed to make sure. Just as it left the rail our comfort zone was rudely interrupted as the world and his dog started throwing all sorts in our direction luckily none too accurate but definitely well within range and traversing back and forth towards us as though searching the gloom for us.
Arthur couldn’t see what was going on from behind the sight but keeping still in a hover for 30secs is a bit unnerving in a regular fireworks display including tracer. At about 20secs he called ‘lost control’ and ‘fallen short’ and he cut the wires and upon stowing the sight let out few choice words at the illuminations outside which by this time were all around. With the collective now under my armpit we shot out of there like a grouse on the Glorious Twelfth just as the first artillery rounds started coming down. We made it back to Teal Inlet for a cup of tea (terribly British) and a wind down with the realisation we had got away with it. Eventually the other a/c pitched up, they had seen the shelling and had been trying to get close to our position which was obscured by smoke and debris from the artillery to ascertain our status and were much relieved to see us back.
We heard that we had missed the Town Hall with the 1st missile and were somewhat deflated but cheered by a report from the BBC (and the NY Times on the 12th) reporting that the Argentines were complaining that their hospital ship, the Bahia Paraiso alongside in Stanley, had been attacked by a missile from a British a/c. Our 2nd AS12 had either snagged its wires over the ridge or been cut by explosion and given the default command is down and right it went into the harbour just short, a pity really as it opened fire the following night on an SBS patrol – so much for Red Cross immunity.
Stanley fell on the 14th and I went to see the results of our attack. The Town Hall looked in rude health but the Police Station was not so, although the walls were intact with a small entry hole the interior was trashed – typical of an AS12 designed delayed detonation after piercing the outer shell. I spoke to a lady living down the street who went out to investigate the bang to see a cartoon-like scene of smoking people staggering out of the Police Station – and she said it certainly raised morale as the story went around.
I discovered that the fireworks were caused by the artillery using the 105 mm OTO-Melara Mod 56 field guns and the anti-aircraft cannons were the Rheinmetall 20 mm Twin-barrelled Anti-Aircraft Cannon using HEI-T(High Explosive Incendiary with Tracer) and SAPHEI (Semi-Armour Piercing High Explosive Incendiary) sporting eh!!
I paced out the track of the missile and it missed the Town Hall by as little as a yard and went down a side street crossed the main road and into the Police Station. It turned out Menendez did not have a meeting that morning, fortuitously and more importantly the hall was used as valuable accommodation in the aftermath and crucially the Post Office remained intact – can’t have mail interrupted in times of crisis! Moreover the Police Station was occupied by the Military Intelligence with a particularly nasty piece of work (can't remember his name) who delighted in hassling the civilian population.
We understood that the attack had given them a real shock in that we could seemingly pick off a target in the middle of town with such accuracy and thus placed doubt in their minds and had indeed helped to hasten the end.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Mzee,
The nasty piece of work you are referring to was Major Patricio Dowling of Argentine Military Intelligence. Its was lucky for him he was shipped home or I suspect he would have met with a very nasty and fatal accident had he been captured.
The nasty piece of work you are referring to was Major Patricio Dowling of Argentine Military Intelligence. Its was lucky for him he was shipped home or I suspect he would have met with a very nasty and fatal accident had he been captured.
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Falkland Islands Info Portal - History Articles
'Nice Argies, Nasty Argies'
The Argentine who caused most fear was the "sinister and dangerous" head of military police intelligence, Major Patricio Dowling, who personified "the Argentine terror machine". He had detailed personal dossiers on Islanders and carried out arbitrary house searches and arrests. In one incident at Neil and Glenda Watson's Long Island Farm, Dowling pointed a weapon at their young daughter Lisa and repeatedly ordered her to stand up. Lisa repeatedly said no and continued sucking her thumb, until Dowling gave up.
'Nice Argies, Nasty Argies'
The Argentine who caused most fear was the "sinister and dangerous" head of military police intelligence, Major Patricio Dowling, who personified "the Argentine terror machine". He had detailed personal dossiers on Islanders and carried out arbitrary house searches and arrests. In one incident at Neil and Glenda Watson's Long Island Farm, Dowling pointed a weapon at their young daughter Lisa and repeatedly ordered her to stand up. Lisa repeatedly said no and continued sucking her thumb, until Dowling gave up.