Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Bickering aside about the CAA or others, it is truly sad to see that yet again we get the "if x people gave £y a month" routine all over again.
The Trust seem bereft of ideas following their little resurgance of PR when she got flying again.
Transparency, initiative and strategic planning seem to be dirty words.
If it takes painting her up like an F1 car with thousands of logo's on to keep it flying for gods sake get it done. The private individual hasn't enough cash, big business wouldn't go near it so, as a small business(es) owner why not offer me a small logo for £558 or whatever, let me use the logo on my website to promote you and bring my punters along to some corporate junket (where you can sell them a logo too) and get the cash in the bank.
One idea, maybe mad, but they can surely come up with something workable before greedy Gordon and his Darling get the rest of our cash.
Everyone is sick of the cry wolf press releases and then they (supporters of the hardcore variety) gripe when the bad news issued by TVOC gets picked up by the press.
Get a grip.
The Trust seem bereft of ideas following their little resurgance of PR when she got flying again.
Transparency, initiative and strategic planning seem to be dirty words.
If it takes painting her up like an F1 car with thousands of logo's on to keep it flying for gods sake get it done. The private individual hasn't enough cash, big business wouldn't go near it so, as a small business(es) owner why not offer me a small logo for £558 or whatever, let me use the logo on my website to promote you and bring my punters along to some corporate junket (where you can sell them a logo too) and get the cash in the bank.
One idea, maybe mad, but they can surely come up with something workable before greedy Gordon and his Darling get the rest of our cash.
Everyone is sick of the cry wolf press releases and then they (supporters of the hardcore variety) gripe when the bad news issued by TVOC gets picked up by the press.
Get a grip.
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Lookingnorth, your comments regarding my supposed ignorance could equally be directed at yourself. You seem to think that the officially-stated activities and salaries/expenses refect the reality of the situation. Naturally I'm unable and unwilling to name any names but I know from direct contact with people who have been closely involved with the project, that ridiculous amounts of money have been wasted during the progress of the project - and much of it has gone to people who were supposedly striving to get the aircraft into the air.
Suffice to say that you can choose to believe what you like. My comments are based on what I know, and what I think should happen, if any of the TVOC people really do have the interests of the aircraft at heart.
For your information, I've never even tried to jump on their proverbial bandwagon. In actual fact I've tried (as did one of the companies I work for) to help then but like many other people, our efforts were largely ignored. I've had a significant amount of my photographic collection borrowed and published and sold by one member of the team, without so much as a thank-you, for example. So I'd be grateful if you'd keep your sarcasm to yourself thanks.
As the post from Pleming shows, the situation is just as muddled and hopeless as it has been for a long time. It's amazing that he can issue a message to everyone that is so long and yet says so little. On the basis of what he says, it seems clear that the aircraft will be grounded if money doesn't miraculously appear over the next three weeks. But of course the situation will doubtless change again when Pleming subsequently announces that the aircraft is not grounded but is now preparing to fly again - if only they could get a few more donations. It's just an endless saga that makes no sense to anybody and simply serves to deter anyone from offering even so much as a fiver.
Surely, either the project is viable or it isn't. They know how much money they have and they know pretty clearly (based on the last year) how much they're likely to get. So why do the endless "it's over unless" announcements continue? Frankly, based on the activities of the past couple of years, one gets the impression that TVOC comprises of some dedicated individuals who provide valued engineering and technical expertise, and various other people who do nothing that a monkey couldn't do better - and more cheaply.
Suffice to say that you can choose to believe what you like. My comments are based on what I know, and what I think should happen, if any of the TVOC people really do have the interests of the aircraft at heart.
For your information, I've never even tried to jump on their proverbial bandwagon. In actual fact I've tried (as did one of the companies I work for) to help then but like many other people, our efforts were largely ignored. I've had a significant amount of my photographic collection borrowed and published and sold by one member of the team, without so much as a thank-you, for example. So I'd be grateful if you'd keep your sarcasm to yourself thanks.
As the post from Pleming shows, the situation is just as muddled and hopeless as it has been for a long time. It's amazing that he can issue a message to everyone that is so long and yet says so little. On the basis of what he says, it seems clear that the aircraft will be grounded if money doesn't miraculously appear over the next three weeks. But of course the situation will doubtless change again when Pleming subsequently announces that the aircraft is not grounded but is now preparing to fly again - if only they could get a few more donations. It's just an endless saga that makes no sense to anybody and simply serves to deter anyone from offering even so much as a fiver.
Surely, either the project is viable or it isn't. They know how much money they have and they know pretty clearly (based on the last year) how much they're likely to get. So why do the endless "it's over unless" announcements continue? Frankly, based on the activities of the past couple of years, one gets the impression that TVOC comprises of some dedicated individuals who provide valued engineering and technical expertise, and various other people who do nothing that a monkey couldn't do better - and more cheaply.
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 9th Dec 2008 at 21:35.
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ideas
I dont see how bickering with each other is going to help anyone.
I think it is high time there is some serious changes doen on the top end of the group. The project is once again trouble and it seems that something is wrong somewhere Yes the Vulcan is a fairly complex and expensive aircraft to maintain but 2 million a year??
If she is to be grounded for good wy not a one of flight to be parked up with the Shackleton where she can be stored in the dry climate?
I think it is high time there is some serious changes doen on the top end of the group. The project is once again trouble and it seems that something is wrong somewhere Yes the Vulcan is a fairly complex and expensive aircraft to maintain but 2 million a year??
If she is to be grounded for good wy not a one of flight to be parked up with the Shackleton where she can be stored in the dry climate?
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Exactly - as I said a few threads back, there must surely be a stage where TVOC have to accept that the money has run out. I accept that even if the aircraft went to the US it might fare no better there but I think everyone would accept that in a country where there are countless more businesses and individuals with money to spare, it has to stand a slightly better chance. Likewise the FAA would not impose as many regulations on the aircraft which would make it less expensive to operate in any case. And even if flying the aircraft proved as difficult as here in the UK, at least the aircraft could be maintained in flyable condition more easily, in a dry/warm climate.
It's got to be a better option that simply leaving the aircraft here. Once it stops flying and the money is gone, the aircraft would be beyond any hope of flying again in a matter of weeks. As their past track record shows, it's unlikely that the CAA would even allow the aircraft to be flown out of the UK once it has been grounded for a while, unless yet more money was thrown at it. So the only sensible solution is to use whatever money is left to fly the aircraft until the funds are exhausted and then make one final ferry flight out of the UK. That's got to be better than simply leaving the aircraft here to rot while Pleming continues making hopeless pleas for donations which will barely cover the cost of starting the engines.
My fear is that TVOC simply haven't even considered this option. I suspect that they plan to simply carry-on making these endless "last chance" pleas until they are forced to ground the aircraft, pending the day when funds become available - which of course they never will. Once the project stops it will never start again. Far better to use whatever money is left to get the aircraft over to the US where there is at least a tiny glimmer of hope - which is preferable to no hope at all.
It's got to be a better option that simply leaving the aircraft here. Once it stops flying and the money is gone, the aircraft would be beyond any hope of flying again in a matter of weeks. As their past track record shows, it's unlikely that the CAA would even allow the aircraft to be flown out of the UK once it has been grounded for a while, unless yet more money was thrown at it. So the only sensible solution is to use whatever money is left to fly the aircraft until the funds are exhausted and then make one final ferry flight out of the UK. That's got to be better than simply leaving the aircraft here to rot while Pleming continues making hopeless pleas for donations which will barely cover the cost of starting the engines.
My fear is that TVOC simply haven't even considered this option. I suspect that they plan to simply carry-on making these endless "last chance" pleas until they are forced to ground the aircraft, pending the day when funds become available - which of course they never will. Once the project stops it will never start again. Far better to use whatever money is left to get the aircraft over to the US where there is at least a tiny glimmer of hope - which is preferable to no hope at all.
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Tim McLelland
The other fundamental problem concerns the number of people that TVOC pays and how much they're being paid. I've received so many tales from people (often in confidence) over past years highlighting just how much money is spent on people, rather than the aircraft.
You seem to think that the officially-stated activities and salaries/expenses refect the reality of the situation. Naturally I'm unable and unwilling to name any names but I know from direct contact with people who have been closely involved with the project, that ridiculous amounts of money have been wasted during the progress of the project - and much of it has gone to people
Tim
Can you share these figures on these wage payments?
How many people are actually employed on the project?
As a retired person who has given amounts I could ill afford, I would like to know who gets what??
Can you help allay my fears?
.
The other fundamental problem concerns the number of people that TVOC pays and how much they're being paid. I've received so many tales from people (often in confidence) over past years highlighting just how much money is spent on people, rather than the aircraft.
You seem to think that the officially-stated activities and salaries/expenses refect the reality of the situation. Naturally I'm unable and unwilling to name any names but I know from direct contact with people who have been closely involved with the project, that ridiculous amounts of money have been wasted during the progress of the project - and much of it has gone to people
Tim
Can you share these figures on these wage payments?
How many people are actually employed on the project?
As a retired person who has given amounts I could ill afford, I would like to know who gets what??
Can you help allay my fears?
.
Cunning Artificer
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If she is to be grounded for good wy not a one of flight to be parked up with the Shackleton where she can be stored in the dry climate?
...and who accounts for the money spent on getting the Vulcan to the Sky?
I was one of the very few 'twitchers' who watched the Vulcan depart from Farnborough a few weeks ago and since then, apart from this new 'call to arms' there has been as good as no comment in either the mainstream press or enthusiast's websites. This just goes to show how difficult it is to keep enough interest in this magnificent beast that would allow it a future. Dr P can keep on issuing messages of fiscal distress, but the fable of the little boy who cried wolf should be his guide.
I'm sure that there is/was a future here in Europe on the show circuit, though perhaps the USA or SA (Mike Beachy Head) are the more realistic options if it were to fly regularly. Without the slightest proof, but with the financial storm clouds gathering and my gut feeling at the time I thought that that was the Vulcan's last flight
Btw, I 'filmed' the take-off from behind with a photo camera and if anyone would be interested to host it (39MB) then I would be happy to share it.
regards
SHJ
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More openess seems to be happening:
XH558 Club Forum now has READ ONLY access...
www.vulcantothesky.com
XH558 Club Forum now has READ ONLY access...
www.vulcantothesky.com
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Lookingnorth, I think the more you say, the more stupid you sound, so I'd be inclined to quit while you're ahead. Making sarcastic comments about my profession just sounds childish and achieves nothing other than making you sound like a fool. You might have seen all of TVOC's publicity material - I couldn't care less. What I said about having my own material used is true however, but I obviously don't need to explain the details of such matters to you, suffice to say that I'm certianly not in the business of inventing "facts" - why would I be? If you don't want to believe my comments then please don't, but perhaps the rest of us can continue pursuing a realistic discussion without your silly snipes?
Delta I'd love to pass-on the various bits of information which relate to expenses and costs etc. but naturally I can't as the people who give me the information are part of the team, but I assure you that the information I get is reliable. I'm old and wise enough to know who the idiots are and who are not, but obviously it's all-too easy for smart-asses (like the above) to say "aah well, if you won't name any names then you're talking rubbish"... so it's a no-win situation. All I can say is that I've followed this project for many years ever since David Walton first purchased the aircraft, through all the ups and downs, and what I've said reflects the truth of the matter - but if anyone chooses to believe anything to the contrary then that's fine, I can't do much about that!
Delta I'd love to pass-on the various bits of information which relate to expenses and costs etc. but naturally I can't as the people who give me the information are part of the team, but I assure you that the information I get is reliable. I'm old and wise enough to know who the idiots are and who are not, but obviously it's all-too easy for smart-asses (like the above) to say "aah well, if you won't name any names then you're talking rubbish"... so it's a no-win situation. All I can say is that I've followed this project for many years ever since David Walton first purchased the aircraft, through all the ups and downs, and what I've said reflects the truth of the matter - but if anyone chooses to believe anything to the contrary then that's fine, I can't do much about that!
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Vulcan Forum
Some information for you all.
A number of threads has now been opened up on the Vulcan forum for anyone to view, however you will have to become a club member to post and view the rest of the forum.
A number of threads has now been opened up on the Vulcan forum for anyone to view, however you will have to become a club member to post and view the rest of the forum.
Originally Posted by LookingNorth
You don't actually know anything about operating an aeroplane, do you Tim? Wild stab in the dark but you've never owned one, never owned a share in one, are not a pilot and not an engineer?
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I'm sure we're all grateful for that valuable contribution. Point is, I don't have to be an engineer, or maybe you're not bright enough to realise that? More appropriately I am a journalist, therefore communication and the gathering of information is something I'm qualified to do whereas you, sir, are probably not, and yet I don't have any compulsion to make any silly remarks about your background, whatever it may be.
But by all means continue with your childish sniping if it makes you happy. I should point-out however that for most readers of this thread, you merely look stupid.
But by all means continue with your childish sniping if it makes you happy. I should point-out however that for most readers of this thread, you merely look stupid.
Last edited by Tim McLelland; 10th Dec 2008 at 17:16.
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The squabbling is sad and almost as bad as it got a year or so ago, I should know as I got some backlash for my views, but what the hell.
The lack of accounts, coherent plan, crying wolf every month and blind optomism in the face of the truth is going to ground the aircraft again, probably for good unless something significant happens.
The tax payers have funded this aircraft, either by HLF donation or direct donations and someone needs to be more accountable. I know that some time ago there were some good reasons why some issues couldn't be publicised but surely the time is nigh for the books to be flung open and some direct involvement from donors and supporters instead of a select band of individuals.
It needs someone to sit down with the trust board members and the good Doctor and get some arses kicked into some action before it is too late.
The lack of accounts, coherent plan, crying wolf every month and blind optomism in the face of the truth is going to ground the aircraft again, probably for good unless something significant happens.
The tax payers have funded this aircraft, either by HLF donation or direct donations and someone needs to be more accountable. I know that some time ago there were some good reasons why some issues couldn't be publicised but surely the time is nigh for the books to be flung open and some direct involvement from donors and supporters instead of a select band of individuals.
It needs someone to sit down with the trust board members and the good Doctor and get some arses kicked into some action before it is too late.
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Isn't part of the reason that the display's seemed anaemic, that 558 is g- limited ( + 2 ? ), due at least in part to not having a mainspar replaced during the restoration ?
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I was hoping for a sensible debate with this thread. Unfortunately, this thread has in some cases become a case of unnecessary personal attacks and irrational behaviour.
There are many engineers, pilots etc who are on PPRUNE who do know how a commercial airline works and how the elements do affect an aircraft left in the open (particularly in the UK) after only avery short time that is not subject to a controlled,scheduled C&M programme. I can think of an A320 stored at GLA until recently as a classic example of this. An A320 that is probably a quarter the age of XH558.
Can I ask those that know, has anyone in South Africa or the States said that they want to operate the Vulcan? What makes us so sure that they can succeed in operating the a/c where the UK hasn't?
If it wasn't always possible to get suitably qualified Vulcan Engineers to get to an AOG Vulcan in the UK what chance is there of getting them to an AOG Vulcan overseas?
I am not aware of any other comparably sized and complex ex military jet aircraft flying anywhere in the world. I would say that if the Americans really wanted to put a large ex military jet aircraft in the air, they would have done so by now and it would be an American one that meant a lot more to the American public than the Vulcan which they have no affinity to whatsoever.
Should I see the continued sniping and point scoring on PPRUNE, I for one will just call it a day and walk away as I find it irritating and pointless.
Tempsford
There are many engineers, pilots etc who are on PPRUNE who do know how a commercial airline works and how the elements do affect an aircraft left in the open (particularly in the UK) after only avery short time that is not subject to a controlled,scheduled C&M programme. I can think of an A320 stored at GLA until recently as a classic example of this. An A320 that is probably a quarter the age of XH558.
Can I ask those that know, has anyone in South Africa or the States said that they want to operate the Vulcan? What makes us so sure that they can succeed in operating the a/c where the UK hasn't?
If it wasn't always possible to get suitably qualified Vulcan Engineers to get to an AOG Vulcan in the UK what chance is there of getting them to an AOG Vulcan overseas?
I am not aware of any other comparably sized and complex ex military jet aircraft flying anywhere in the world. I would say that if the Americans really wanted to put a large ex military jet aircraft in the air, they would have done so by now and it would be an American one that meant a lot more to the American public than the Vulcan which they have no affinity to whatsoever.
Should I see the continued sniping and point scoring on PPRUNE, I for one will just call it a day and walk away as I find it irritating and pointless.
Tempsford
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Should I see the continued sniping and point scoring on PPRuNe, I for one will just call it a day and walk away as I find it irritating and pointless.
Tempsford
I'll join you.
Ciarain.
Tempsford
I'll join you.
Ciarain.
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Unfortunately this is what happens - you enter into a forum discussion and it deteriorates into a schoolyard scrap. Frankly, I'd have more (or at least some) respect for the usual snipers if they put some of their effort into saying something relevant to the thread instead of wasting their energy on me. It's not as if I care - making stupid comments merely makes the person who posts them look, er, stupid. But it just annoys or bores all the other poor folks who foolishly look at the threat expecting a discussion! Imagine! The very idea!
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Come on guys, lets stop the sniping. It's all pointless. A lot of what Tim says makes sense, and so do a lot of his critics.
This sort of posting resulted in a very good site closing down in the last couple of days. Opinions are like a.......s, everybodys got one. The Vulcan is a good discussion subject. Lets cuit out the personal attacks.
This sort of posting resulted in a very good site closing down in the last couple of days. Opinions are like a.......s, everybodys got one. The Vulcan is a good discussion subject. Lets cuit out the personal attacks.
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G
Isn't part of the reason that the display's seemed anaemic, that 558 is g- limited ( + 2 ? ), due at least in part to not having a mainspar replaced during the restoration ?
As for the aicraft excess 'g' limits they are +2.35 and -0.05, if any of these are exceeded then additional checks have to be carried out.