Dysonsphere

the whole thing is very sad its flown once and is now sitting in a hangar again. Now is proper maintanice been done or is she being left to rot with failed seals etc. Would like to hear the answer.

Lancasterman

Museums make use of volunteers from those that push brooms to working on aircraft to office work, why should tvoc be any different? Do they utitlise the volunteers force is there enough in the area to be able to help? Why pay salaries if volunteers could do the same job?

forget

From the Charity Commission Web Here

F5. Do trustees have to keep accounts?

There are legal requirements (in the 1993 Act and associated regulations) for charities, relating to:

(several, including) availability of accounts to the public.

Flying Signman

Tim,

A bit of a grabbing headline.

Can I just ask if you have been on the site (and more importantly the forum) in the last few days at all?

I, like you perhaps have had great reservations over past performance and the viability of the "master-plan". However, things are moving on a-pace.

E-Donations are currently averaging £10,000 per week and some key initiatives should see the current shortfall raised/underwritten well before the end of March.

There are sufficient people who care so much about this project, that as much as you seek legal help - perhaps the right people in Sponsorship, Marketing and PR are getting on-board.

How current is your latest information, perhaps it is not so much of a crisis as you think?

Dysonsphere,
Anti-Dets are all to schedule as the Crew Chief has clearly stated and 558 is due out (weather permitting) next week.

Would it have been wise when it's been -5 degrees?

By the way, I am no official of TVOC - just someone who keeps upto speed with actual events and facts.

These sort of threads do no good to the general cause.

nwest

[quote]I've seen a few of his interviews now and every time he gets a rare opportunity to talk to the media he makes a mess of it. He doesn't sell the project at all and he leaves people with the impression that it's some half-baked bunch of idiots trying to tart-up an old plane in their spare time.QUOTE]

I tend to agree.

I don't know Dr Pleming, nor have I ever met him, so I'm unqualified to make statements about his personality - but the impression he tends to provide on media interviews isn't a great one.

His performance on Radio 4's "Woman's Hour" a few weeks ago left a lot to be desired. He just came across on that occasion as dry, monotone and (frankly) dull. Dr Pleming speaks of wanting to get the Vulcan to fly to re-ignite interest and enthusiasm among young generations about engineering. The spokesman for the Vulcan project should therefore come across as energetic and enthusiastic which, with due respect, Dr Pleming does not.

Put it this way. If I was an "ordinary" person, not especially interested in aviation or aware of the Vulcan, and I heard Dr Pleming's interview on Woman's Hour - would I, after listening to Dr Pleming speak, be engaged and enthused about the subject enough to go and seek further info about it and maybe contribute to it? I'm not so sure I would be.

We live in a media age and people from all organisations who want public support for their cause (whatever it is) need to play the media game to get support. That means a certain type of spokesperson, with adequate media training.

Tim's suggestion of a well-known, 'appropriate' celebrity (like Clarkson) is a good one. Failing that, I see the airshow commentator Sean Maffet has posted on this thread. How about Sean being TVOC's media spokesperson? From his years of airshow commentating (and his BBC Oxfordshire days before that), as well as his other work with TV/video productions, Sean - to my mind at least - has a knack of choosing the right words, and able to inject a bit of warmth and humour to things.

And, in my opinion, he's a far more engaging listen than Dr Pleming.

x10ge

Tim

Whilst I agree with your condemnation of an apparent misspend of HLF funding, you are now asking them to spend more money on finding out where the money has gone. As a regular buyer of lottery tickets I don't want anymore wasted - it would be better spent on air ambulances!

If you think there has been an insjustice then you should perhaps ask for a proper legal investigation. Funding grants are, I believe, issued after a proper case has been put forward and unless the money is spent outside of the proposal then no one has committed an offence.

Sad I know but like any other investment did you invest in the Vulcan? or its operating company?

Yes I have lost faith as well.

X10

Exrigger

Flying Signman, while I agree to a point with your comments you asked if Tim has been in the forum and read what is going on. I think you will find that is the point that was being made, if you want donations and sponsorship then you cannot hide it behind two log ins on the TVOC forum, only accessable to those who are part of the membership.

It should of been pushed in the media and across the web from the first flight, not a wall of silence, which I think you will find the very supporters that you are part of also made these points on the same TVOC forum.

Like you I have nothing to do with the TVOC, only as an avid supporter who does not want the hard work by the guys and gals who achieved the impossible, including Marshalls and all of the OEMs who helped and not forgetting the support from the CAA, without which the effort would have been wasted and finally not forgetting the HLF for finally seeing sense and supporting a cold war icon that should never have been left to rot like 'we' have done with all the others.

kwh

...as quickly as possible, then?

It's telling that the response of TVOC to people asking pertinent questions on their forum was to close it and make it 'members only'. So if you want to discuss the project with TVOC or ask 'difficult' questions, you first have to stump up to 'join the club'. I've donated more than once in the past (not huge sums, but more than I would want to waste), but never joined a 'club' - I'm not sure it existed when I donated last, and if it had, I wouldn't have thought they needed to be paying to send me 'newsletters' or whatever that I was just going to bin unread, so I didn't bother. Not another penny of mine is going to TVOC unless I develop confidence that they have a clue and aren't grossly incompetent and/or fraudsters and/or fantasists. At the moment I have no such confidence, and they don't seem to be interested in correcting any false impression I may have gained, so no more cash from me for the duration. I'll pay to go to an airshow to watch the Vulcan display tomorrow, though.

However, the Vulcan is now restored and sitting in a hangar at Bruntingthorpe. It can't be 'unrestored', although it might need somebody to keep it ticking over on a voluntary basis, if the CAA will allow that. If there is a viable way of operating it in the future, somebody will surely do so, even if the TVOC expires. If there never was a viable way of operating it, then the people who extracted money from hundreds or thousands of donors, and the HLF, have a lot more questions to answer than the already long list they will have if and when TVOC goes bust without delivering a flying Vulcan! Indeed, I would expect that the auditors from the Charity Commission, the HLF and if it appears necessary the SFO will be all over them as and when the organisation hits the buffers, so we will surely know sooner rather than later what has been going on!

If I'm right, donating is the last thing anybody should do. Let it die, and we might yet see a Vulcan in the air, if we were ever going to... and when the wheels of the various inevitable investigations finally grind to a conclusion, we might yet eventually all find out what happened to our money and who is to be held accountable...

kwh

What the F.... !

Is that widely known? What value has he added for that exactly? And how many of e.g. the ex-Vulcan crew who are now pensioners and have contributed what are to them very large sums of money on an ongoing basis knew that and would have been happy about it?

Tim McLelland

Indeed, a "grabbing headline" was what I was trying to create, so the folks who have grown tired of reading the XH558 thread might take notice!


Short answer is no, I haven't been on their forum nor do I propose to - I'm really not interested in reading endless half truths, waffle, what if's and all the rest of it. It's gone on far too long. I'm only interested in trying to ensure that the aircraft isn't abandoned after having come so far.

Frankly, having heard all the fuss about their forum, I just don't think it matters one way or the other what is said on there, be it from members or TVOC people. We don't need to have some endless dialogue with TVOC - all that is required is a simple, regular statement of progress and activities. Simple as that. More statements of how they need just a little bit more money are unfair, unless they're prepared to explain (properly) why sponsorship hasn't come forward when they insisted it would after the first flight. Cheap lines about economic downturns are just insulting.

Frankly, instead of wasting time on forums, they should have someone (maybe Dr Pleming? He's supposed to be the guy in control isn't he?) make a detailed statement every week which includes a breakdown of what he and his team have actually done that week, and how much they were paid to do it. Think it would make fascinacting reading, and for a group which is happily spending the public's money, they seem incredibly reluctant to do something like this. One has to wonder why. I don't accept for a second that when Pleming in particular gets paid well to handle the project full time, he can't provide the public with that sort of information on a regular basis. Is he really that busy? All week? Every day?

It has simply gone on for far too long. I'm sick of hearing tales about what might or might not be happening and I'm tired of stories about various offers of help which have been ignored or mishandled. Having done my best to help them on two separate occasions, I'm also convinced that they're just not interested.

I accept that it's pointless to carry on carping, and I also accept that the real situation may not be as bad as it sounds. My point is, TVOC shouldn't be saying on the one hand that things are progressing smoothly, and then begging for cash as if they can't succeed without it, at the same time. Fundamentally, I just hope that there are some people out there who think, like me, that it's time to find-out what's really going on, before it's too late.

I don't have any influence but as I said previously, surely someone on Pprune must have a bit of potential "clout" in the right places? Or do we all just sit-back and listen to the endless wittering yet again, until next week's crisis comes along?

Tim McLelland

Well this goes back to what I mentioned earlier. He gets paid handsomely. Nothing wrong with the guy in charge being paid of course, but you have to ask why it has to be that much? For heaven's sake, it's supposed to be a fund raising group and one would assume that the main man would be the one who would be putting his whole efforts into it, and trying to take as little out of it as possible. Frankly, when someone is getting what amounts to a huge salary, you really do have every right to know what we're getting for that in return. He (and TVOC) have no right to hide away behind paid-for forums, misleading statements or anything else. And for an annual expenses account like that, I really do think we should expect something rather better than Pleming's bumbling nonsense, on the rare occasions that he does manage to get any media coverage of the project.

I think we've all assumed the position of allowing these guys to get away with all sorts of liberties on the assumption that it was worth it, if it got XH558 back into the air. But it's flown now, and the way things are it doesn't sound like it will fly again, or if it does, not for very long. So I think we have every right to stop letting them do as they like, and start demanding some proper feedback. I don't care what Pleming has done so far (not much, from what he's bothered to tell us about) but if his expenses work-out at 200 quid a day, I think anyone would be wanting to ask precisely what we're getting for that. It's laughable - he claims he needs 150k - well maybe he could have handled the project in his spare time for free for a couple of years? That would have covered it! Heaven-knows he doesn't seem to have occupied every hour of the day on the project, or if he did, what's he been doing?

Doubtless he would claim that he's had to go here and there, do this or do that, but really, come on, I think we're being had for mugs here. I don't accept for a minute that half of the stuff he's been doing has been necessary. Floating around at air shows in a suit isn't exactly doing much to get sponsorship, and yet I'm quite sure he manages to claim every one of these junkets is an "expense" to claim for.

I feel terribly sorry for the people who have actually done the work on this project when there are people like Pleming and the long-gone Felicity Irwin sitting there at the top, doing very little and using-up funds in the process. I'd also love to know how much money is being diverted to the non-functional PR company that seems unable to even answer an email.

Sorry, but I've had enough of it. The Vulcan forum is just a needless distraction and it's time that the project was handled properly. As has been said above, there are too many people asking too many questions from all quarters. It needs one person or one small group with some media, financial or political clout, to go back to HLF, and together they should go to TVOC and stop all this nonsense once and for all before millions are poured down the drain forever and the Vulcan is just left there to rot.

SPIT

Hi
After reading the answers given to this post I am of the firm belief that the gen aviation community are getting (UNFORTUNATELY) fed up with the whole
vulcam restoration saga now and they want to see it fly now at displays, after all that is what a lot of them originaly paid for [me amongst them).:

kwh

...and has 'Fly Virgin' emblazoned across its belly. The Red Bull Sea Vixen was a lot better flying than a historically correct replica paint job would have been in a dusty museum. What price the Virgin Vulcan?

The HLF might well have insisted that it flew in 'Authentic' cold war colours (but which ones exactly, eh?), but no doubt after the TVOC has gone bust for want of a sponsor, a business plan and the unquestioning financial support of an ever more sceptical public, etc, whoever takes over the project and the plane might be able to negotiate a variation of that condition. On the grounds that schoolkids can look at colour schemes in period photographs all day, but a triangular flying (howling) billboard is better than a faded static objet d'art in RAF colours, especially if the lottery fund is in for 'n' million already...

BEagle

Unless it's something he's personally involved in (such as balloonacy or flying in a spaceship), Sir Richard Branson does not allow the Virgin brand to be associated with any aviation project which isn't 100% reliable.

mustpost

Now would that be the project or the a/c?

speeddial

And considering the first partly bio-fuelled Virgin flight is in the news today I don't think a smokey Vulcan would go down well.

deltapapa

From Lancasterman

I'me not a legal expert but wouldn't it be wise for HLF to have someone come in and legally make TVOC accountable for every last penny and find out where all the money went and why?
Not to be a doom and gloom merchant but I think this might be the end of the project unless as has been posted previously, the top end is cleared out and new people put in place.

I agree everyone has a right to ask certain questions about the project & I think those questions are founded but in the interests of fair play may I point out it is my belief the HLF did not just hand over £2.73m & let TVOC just spend as they like. The HLF only pay out on the receipt of invoices which have been scrutanized, in addition TVOC will have had to produce a financial percentage of those invoices themselves which I think is 28%.

happy to be corrected if I have this wrong

forget

Yesterday I found some facts from the Vulcan to the Sky Trust Consolidated Report and Accounts; 31 July 2005, and posted them.

I made the remark that Dr Pleming had, during 2004, claimed almost £200 per working day on expenses. My post was deleted, although there’s still mention of it in post 670. Why would that be?

On the off-chance that the deletion wasn’t intended this is what the record says, available to anyone.

R Pleming, a director of Vulcan To The Sky Enterprises Limited, which is 100% owned by Vulcan To The Sky Trust, is also a director of RW Pleming Consulting Limited. During the year ended 31 July 2005, Vulcan To The Sky Trust paid RW Pleming Consulting Limited an amount of £82,933 including expenses (2004. £48,684) for consultancy services.

BEagle

The only way to put an end to these allegations and speculation is for VTST to publish fully audited figures immediately.

I can understand the reticence of anyone asked to make a further contribution if it was learned that, in one year alone, over £80K was not used for restoring the aircraft to flightworthy status.

I am still waiting to learn how much monthly rent is being charged to keep the aircraft hangared at Bruntingthorpe.....

However, it must be acknowledged by everyone that the engineers, groundcrew and aircrew have all done a fantastic job. Just watch any of Primetime Jo's excellent DVDs and you'll see what I mean!

forget

17. Commitments under operating leases. At 31 July 2005 the company had annual commitments under non-cancellable operating leases as set out below.

Land and buildings.

2005

Operating leases on Aircraft Hangar
which expire within two to five years. £180.000