BA Collection at RAF Cosford under threat (Merged)
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Originally Posted by Tempsford
DX
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). ...................So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.
Temps
I am sure that no one intended to take this thread to a 'personal' level (DID WE!!). ...................So, fellow PPRUNERS, the next time a mail is posted by someone who may not have as much aviation knowledge as you, 'cut em some slack' and help them with a positive response and try not to exhibit it in a way that you know more than they do. Perhaps you do, but the person asking the question may be able to help you one day in a field that you are not perhaps so knowledgeable in.
Temps
I have been away and have just re-read my post and it does look like that but it wasn't my intention. You are quite right to point that out Temps so I apologise if I offended anyone. Now, who is going to start the ball rolling for a museum for Commercial Aircraft as Temps suggested earlier?
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Albert Driver
The gentleman at Cosford on Good Friday also told me East Fortune was taking the whole 707 but the statement on the fence says they only get the nose.
B707 G-APFJ has a long connection with Scotland as it flew transatlantic through Prestwick with BA and BOAC. G-ARVM used to be based at Prestwick as the VC10 fleet training machine. It was an amazing aircraft. A true historic loss. Of course G-AMOG was one of two BOAC (later BA ) Viscounts based at Prestwick (alongwith G-AMON, operated by Cambrian on BA feeder routes to EDI and BFS). So they all have strong Scottish connections.
HINT HINT - TOO IMPORTANT TO SCRAP !!!
The gentleman at Cosford on Good Friday also told me East Fortune was taking the whole 707 but the statement on the fence says they only get the nose.
B707 G-APFJ has a long connection with Scotland as it flew transatlantic through Prestwick with BA and BOAC. G-ARVM used to be based at Prestwick as the VC10 fleet training machine. It was an amazing aircraft. A true historic loss. Of course G-AMOG was one of two BOAC (later BA ) Viscounts based at Prestwick (alongwith G-AMON, operated by Cambrian on BA feeder routes to EDI and BFS). So they all have strong Scottish connections.
HINT HINT - TOO IMPORTANT TO SCRAP !!!
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National Museums of Scotland, of which East Fortune is part, have just confirmed that only the cockpit and front fuselage of the 707 is being saved despite what the RAFM Cosford notice said. NMS also confirmed similar plans for the Trident.
So there is no reprieve and the 707 and the Trident will meet their ends very soon. All that is still to be decided is how much of the VC10 Brooklands will be able, or want, to save.
I wonder if Cosford will treat its hoped-for RAF VC10 with as much contempt as it showed VM, having first exploited it to boost the takings then let it rot.
I also wonder how long it will be until BA decides it can't afford its little museum at Heathrow and trashes that collection of artifacts too.
Barbarians all.
So there is no reprieve and the 707 and the Trident will meet their ends very soon. All that is still to be decided is how much of the VC10 Brooklands will be able, or want, to save.
I wonder if Cosford will treat its hoped-for RAF VC10 with as much contempt as it showed VM, having first exploited it to boost the takings then let it rot.
I also wonder how long it will be until BA decides it can't afford its little museum at Heathrow and trashes that collection of artifacts too.
Barbarians all.
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The BOAC scene would have been priceless and unique. Instead let's have an unrecognisable decapitated aeroplane. I seem to be misunderstanding the meaning of the word "museum"here. They should all be bloody ashamed.
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I now have the truth.
The decision to re-locate all the aircraft in the british airways collection was made by british airways following a review of their condition and the support provided for their maintenance. The Trustees of the Royal Air Force Museum were no longer able to provide space for these aircraft without proper support being provided by ba and covered accommodation was becoming urgent to ensure their long term preservation. A joint review was carried out between ba and the RAF Museum and the decision to re-locate the aircraft was made by ba.
ba have already started the work of destroying the Trident 1C, I am informed, and only the cockpit section will be going to East Fortune. The VC10 is still intact, but only the cockpit and front fuselage section will be going to Brooklands.
The decision to re-locate all the aircraft in the british airways collection was made by british airways following a review of their condition and the support provided for their maintenance. The Trustees of the Royal Air Force Museum were no longer able to provide space for these aircraft without proper support being provided by ba and covered accommodation was becoming urgent to ensure their long term preservation. A joint review was carried out between ba and the RAF Museum and the decision to re-locate the aircraft was made by ba.
ba have already started the work of destroying the Trident 1C, I am informed, and only the cockpit section will be going to East Fortune. The VC10 is still intact, but only the cockpit and front fuselage section will be going to Brooklands.
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Well, I've voted AGAINST 'Museum of Flight' winning the Gulbenkian Prize due to the fact that, by accepting the aircraft from Cosford, an unique collection will be dispersed and some aircraft cut up for exhibit instead of remaining in their current complete state.
as a third party offering at least some chance of escape, and preservation for the nation, they should have just let BA and the RAFM scrap them all. Then they could take the moral high ground !!
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Statement from RAF Museum:
'We strongly believe that long term conservation cannot be assured in the UK climate if aircraft are kept outside'
Source Flypast Magazine June 2006 Page 4
Also an article in the above issue on the disposal of the BA Collection at Cosford.
Temps
'We strongly believe that long term conservation cannot be assured in the UK climate if aircraft are kept outside'
Source Flypast Magazine June 2006 Page 4
Also an article in the above issue on the disposal of the BA Collection at Cosford.
Temps
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The end of the BA collection?
Thank you for the update regarding the fate of these machines BEagle.
I note that once again museums are only interested in the 'sharp ends'. Does no one realise there are other interesting parts on an aeroplane? Take the VC10, here is a design dating back some fifty years. I think the rear fuselage with engines and empenage would make a very interesting exhibit. Showing how the engines and tail are mounted on the rear fuselage, does credit to the design team, even today. It could be displayed with the skin removed from one side thereby showing the two beams and three angled frames supporting the engines and tail assembly respectively.
I hope something can be done to save these aircraft, I, like many others feel a lot of history will be lost if they end up in a scrap yard as appears is their destiny. If there is somebody out there who has any say in the matter, I can offer a covered home for the Conway engines for the foreseeable future - of course there is a snag - they will have to be trucked to Belgium.
I note that once again museums are only interested in the 'sharp ends'. Does no one realise there are other interesting parts on an aeroplane? Take the VC10, here is a design dating back some fifty years. I think the rear fuselage with engines and empenage would make a very interesting exhibit. Showing how the engines and tail are mounted on the rear fuselage, does credit to the design team, even today. It could be displayed with the skin removed from one side thereby showing the two beams and three angled frames supporting the engines and tail assembly respectively.
I hope something can be done to save these aircraft, I, like many others feel a lot of history will be lost if they end up in a scrap yard as appears is their destiny. If there is somebody out there who has any say in the matter, I can offer a covered home for the Conway engines for the foreseeable future - of course there is a snag - they will have to be trucked to Belgium.
Am I the only person on pprune to be getting a bit p*ssed off by the folks who are blaming this debacle on the RAF Museum?
Let's face it, British Airways are forever telling us that they are the most profitable airline in the world and yet they cannot raise a little finger to save their own bl**dy heritage. (Do you remember the Argonaut, the Comet and the Trident survivors at Heathrow)?
BA should have been looking after their airframes with proper funding since the very beginning. They could easily have found their own site and not have relied on squatters rights at Cosford.
My main interest is in Belfast XR371 and if she had been threatened by one of these squatters then I would have been very upset. The RAF Museum is an RAF Museum and not a convenient park for the most profitable airline in the world.
What a contrast to South African Airways: I will admit that the SAA historic flight has been banished to Swartkop for a few years but they are now back at Jan Smutts. (My old co-pilot flew the Ju-52 back in there a few months ago - No.12 in the hold would you believe)?
You will note that I used the term "flew the Ju-52". They also have flying DC-3s and DC-4s.
BA could not even manage to keep a Viscount flying even if they had a fire burning underneath their ar*e.
The whole reason this wonderful collection is coming apart is entirely because of the complete apathy of British Airways and absolutely no one else.
The RAF Museum has been more than patient and the modern Royal Air Force (thanks to Tony and his crooked mates) is hurting wose than I have ever seen.
Let's face it, British Airways are forever telling us that they are the most profitable airline in the world and yet they cannot raise a little finger to save their own bl**dy heritage. (Do you remember the Argonaut, the Comet and the Trident survivors at Heathrow)?
BA should have been looking after their airframes with proper funding since the very beginning. They could easily have found their own site and not have relied on squatters rights at Cosford.
My main interest is in Belfast XR371 and if she had been threatened by one of these squatters then I would have been very upset. The RAF Museum is an RAF Museum and not a convenient park for the most profitable airline in the world.
What a contrast to South African Airways: I will admit that the SAA historic flight has been banished to Swartkop for a few years but they are now back at Jan Smutts. (My old co-pilot flew the Ju-52 back in there a few months ago - No.12 in the hold would you believe)?
You will note that I used the term "flew the Ju-52". They also have flying DC-3s and DC-4s.
BA could not even manage to keep a Viscount flying even if they had a fire burning underneath their ar*e.
The whole reason this wonderful collection is coming apart is entirely because of the complete apathy of British Airways and absolutely no one else.
The RAF Museum has been more than patient and the modern Royal Air Force (thanks to Tony and his crooked mates) is hurting wose than I have ever seen.
Yes, the spineless beancounters at ba with no interest in their historical heritage are indeed to blame for the whole sad affair.
Latest news is that the destruction of the Trident and Boeing 707 will have been completed by 25th May; the wreckers had to stop work on the 707 due the wet ground.
Regarding the other 3 aircraft, the Viscount is scheduled to go during the period 21 May to 19 June, followed next by the BAC 1-11 from 19 June to 18 July. Finally, they plan to destroy the VC10 in the period 14 August to 29 August.....
Only the cockpit and some of the forward fuselage sections of the Trident and VC10 will survive. For the responsibility of ordering the wilful destruction of such unique survivng examples of their history, ba should be thoroughly ashamed.
I intend NEVER to fly with ba! Incidentally, although the RAFM have replied to my e-mails, I have heard nothing from [email protected] in response to my e-mails. Has anyone else had a reply?
I guess we must draw our own conclusions from the lack of ba response...
Latest news is that the destruction of the Trident and Boeing 707 will have been completed by 25th May; the wreckers had to stop work on the 707 due the wet ground.
Regarding the other 3 aircraft, the Viscount is scheduled to go during the period 21 May to 19 June, followed next by the BAC 1-11 from 19 June to 18 July. Finally, they plan to destroy the VC10 in the period 14 August to 29 August.....
Only the cockpit and some of the forward fuselage sections of the Trident and VC10 will survive. For the responsibility of ordering the wilful destruction of such unique survivng examples of their history, ba should be thoroughly ashamed.
I intend NEVER to fly with ba! Incidentally, although the RAFM have replied to my e-mails, I have heard nothing from [email protected] in response to my e-mails. Has anyone else had a reply?
I guess we must draw our own conclusions from the lack of ba response...
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It's not just their aviation heritage that BA don't give a d@mn about. It's the whole of British aviation.
They have been at the forefront of this bogus exercise by the airlines complaining about subsidising GA too much. The result of this 'consultation' is massive increases in charges to the GA sector and airfield operators. They are also on record as saying that a collapse of ATPL training in the UK because of these increases doesn't bother them as they don't have to recruit pilots here anyway.
You only have to look at other major airlines which maintain 'historic flights' to see the difference. Lufthansa, for example, makes regular appearances at Duxford's Flying Legends with their aircraft, and the JU52 also does pleasure flights.
i wonder how many expense account lunches it would have taken to pay for the Cosford aircraft to be maintained? But they appear on a different bit of the balance sheet and senior management need their incentives, don't they.
Richard Branson sponsored part of the insurance to get B17 Sally B back in the air last year, BA scrap their historic aircraft. Game, set and match to Virgin. BA ought to get some new PR advisors, they are going to need them!
RD
They have been at the forefront of this bogus exercise by the airlines complaining about subsidising GA too much. The result of this 'consultation' is massive increases in charges to the GA sector and airfield operators. They are also on record as saying that a collapse of ATPL training in the UK because of these increases doesn't bother them as they don't have to recruit pilots here anyway.
You only have to look at other major airlines which maintain 'historic flights' to see the difference. Lufthansa, for example, makes regular appearances at Duxford's Flying Legends with their aircraft, and the JU52 also does pleasure flights.
i wonder how many expense account lunches it would have taken to pay for the Cosford aircraft to be maintained? But they appear on a different bit of the balance sheet and senior management need their incentives, don't they.
Richard Branson sponsored part of the insurance to get B17 Sally B back in the air last year, BA scrap their historic aircraft. Game, set and match to Virgin. BA ought to get some new PR advisors, they are going to need them!
RD
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To clarify my stance,
My comments about keeping aircraft outside long term at museums in the UK was not directed at any organisation in particular and should be considered as a generic statement.
Temps
My comments about keeping aircraft outside long term at museums in the UK was not directed at any organisation in particular and should be considered as a generic statement.
Temps
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Can anything be done to try and save these priceless aircraft?
Is it all too late? If there is something constructive that I can do please give me a heads up?
Please.
Is it all too late? If there is something constructive that I can do please give me a heads up?
Please.
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The one aircraft that is still under negotiation is the VC10.
Brooklands wants more than just the front fuselage but not, at the moment (as far as I can tell) the whole thing.
Get on to Brooklands and add your request to all the others that they try and negotiate to acquire the whole aircraft.
Not saying there's much more than a ghost of a chance but while it still stands.....
Brooklands wants more than just the front fuselage but not, at the moment (as far as I can tell) the whole thing.
Get on to Brooklands and add your request to all the others that they try and negotiate to acquire the whole aircraft.
Not saying there's much more than a ghost of a chance but while it still stands.....
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...........Yes, I know they have one, but not a _real_ one that used to wear a gold dickie-bird on a blue tail. They need lots of new spares. They've just put a Concorde back together again - so they've proved they're a very clever lot who could handle the job. They've got lots of money (well, they know people who've got lots of money - you've got to have lots of money to live in Weybridge!)
.......and anyway they built 'em so they must like 'em !
So, Brooklands are the people to talk to.
.......and anyway they built 'em so they must like 'em !
So, Brooklands are the people to talk to.
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This pic says it all.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1040910/M/
Trident being broken up............
Trident being broken up............
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Like an itch you just know you shouldn't scratch I had to click on the link provided by Mooney. So sad!
So other than a an incredibly remote possibly of Brooklands being able save more of the VC10 than the Cockpit, this particular battle between aviation heritage on one side and corporate apathy allied to bean counters saving pennies whilst wasting millions is over.
But have we 'learned anything' from this. Other than rage against events what will 'we' as PPRuners be able to do next time (and there will be a next time) that would have a positive effect?
OK emails and letters to those with influence may help, but normally these require time to 'build momentum' and often this is a lot longer than the time between an annoucement and irrevocable destruction.
I have no answers (god I wish I did) and the feeling of impotence during this affair not helped by knowing that in this particular case the BA Board has never grasped the importance and commercial possibilities of Corporate Heritage since they were privatised.
From the posts in this thread there have been many suggestions with merit, but in most cases they required: Time, Organisation and Finally Money.
Although Time is never sufficient it is a variable.
Organisation - 'We are a group who correspond' we are not an organisation.
Money - Without the first two this is hypothetical and conservation is ongoing, so simply applying for lottery funding won't cut it.
I am probably going to be accused of being defeatist (again :-) but I am just trying to set out the problem and really hoping someone has a viable solution to take into the next battle.
DIH
So other than a an incredibly remote possibly of Brooklands being able save more of the VC10 than the Cockpit, this particular battle between aviation heritage on one side and corporate apathy allied to bean counters saving pennies whilst wasting millions is over.
But have we 'learned anything' from this. Other than rage against events what will 'we' as PPRuners be able to do next time (and there will be a next time) that would have a positive effect?
OK emails and letters to those with influence may help, but normally these require time to 'build momentum' and often this is a lot longer than the time between an annoucement and irrevocable destruction.
I have no answers (god I wish I did) and the feeling of impotence during this affair not helped by knowing that in this particular case the BA Board has never grasped the importance and commercial possibilities of Corporate Heritage since they were privatised.
From the posts in this thread there have been many suggestions with merit, but in most cases they required: Time, Organisation and Finally Money.
Although Time is never sufficient it is a variable.
Organisation - 'We are a group who correspond' we are not an organisation.
Money - Without the first two this is hypothetical and conservation is ongoing, so simply applying for lottery funding won't cut it.
I am probably going to be accused of being defeatist (again :-) but I am just trying to set out the problem and really hoping someone has a viable solution to take into the next battle.
DIH