BA Collection at RAF Cosford under threat (Merged)
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Hmm Skipness One when you wrote:
I only thing I would change is that rare should read last.
A thread drift, Cosford is/was not the only museum to hold extremely rare airframes, or at least remains in BA predecessor colours.
My particular concern (at least until I find something else to get angry about) is the fate of the Hermes 4 Fuselage formerly G-ALDG.
Started with BOAC with them for 7 years.Passed very quickly through several operators until ending it's flying days with Britavia/Silver City and wfu early 1962. Officially Scrapped in October 1962, the Fuselage complete with Tailfin was rescued by BUA (when Freddie Laker was MD) and spent the next 26 Years as a Cabin Trainer (BUA/Cale-BUA/BCAL).
After the BA Takeover the Aircraft ended up at Duxford (Minus Tailfin) and painted in BOAC Colours with it's original name Horsa (which I don't have a problem with, although a BUA, or BCAL Scheme would have been nice).
But it doesn't appear to be listed in the Duxford collection anymore. Is it still around?
DIH
So the rare B707-437 gets junked and the last BA standard goes the same way. Well done the luddites.
A thread drift, Cosford is/was not the only museum to hold extremely rare airframes, or at least remains in BA predecessor colours.
My particular concern (at least until I find something else to get angry about) is the fate of the Hermes 4 Fuselage formerly G-ALDG.
Started with BOAC with them for 7 years.Passed very quickly through several operators until ending it's flying days with Britavia/Silver City and wfu early 1962. Officially Scrapped in October 1962, the Fuselage complete with Tailfin was rescued by BUA (when Freddie Laker was MD) and spent the next 26 Years as a Cabin Trainer (BUA/Cale-BUA/BCAL).
After the BA Takeover the Aircraft ended up at Duxford (Minus Tailfin) and painted in BOAC Colours with it's original name Horsa (which I don't have a problem with, although a BUA, or BCAL Scheme would have been nice).
But it doesn't appear to be listed in the Duxford collection anymore. Is it still around?
DIH
Ramasseur des pommes
Opssys,
According to the IWM website, the Hermes has been restored as part of the AirSpace exhibition, due to open in 2007. Having not seen it personally at Duxford, I can't verify the information. Here is the link:
http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server.php...2&navId=00d007
AppleMacster
According to the IWM website, the Hermes has been restored as part of the AirSpace exhibition, due to open in 2007. Having not seen it personally at Duxford, I can't verify the information. Here is the link:
http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server.php...2&navId=00d007
AppleMacster
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I believe that there still exists a Conway powered Lufthansa 707 so perhaps G-APFJ is not the last surviving B707-400s series? However the Cosford Trident is the only preserved Trident 1C in the whole world. G-ARVM is the only surviving passenger ( non exec ) Standard VC10 in the world.
Please somehow find a way to move them completely and put them back together as whole aircraft !!! This is cultural vanadalism of the highest order - a short sighted folly by people who ought to know better.
Please somehow find a way to move them completely and put them back together as whole aircraft !!! This is cultural vanadalism of the highest order - a short sighted folly by people who ought to know better.
A Boeing 707-430 which formerly flew for German Lufthansa under the registration D-ABOD is currently under restoration at Hamburg's Fuhlsbüttel airport.
The airport is proud that this historic aircraft is so well looked after - I saw it only recently.
And at another German location, through the windows of a workshop I saw a very rare aircraft indeed being restored to airworthy condition.....
A 'Butcher bird'!
The airport is proud that this historic aircraft is so well looked after - I saw it only recently.
And at another German location, through the windows of a workshop I saw a very rare aircraft indeed being restored to airworthy condition.....
A 'Butcher bird'!
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Apr 2006 at 16:40.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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The Hermes fuselage is definitely still at Duxford and has been restored. I gather that they removed her fin to stop her weathercocking in the wind (!) and it has disappeared! Seems rather a large item to mislay, but there you go.
I remember her sitting behind the Cale complex next to the A23 at Gatwick when I nobbut a lad...
I remember her sitting behind the Cale complex next to the A23 at Gatwick when I nobbut a lad...
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Preserving large aircraft will always create logistical problems. As I have said before, well intentioned people did not grasp the situation years ago when the idea of aircraft preservation gained apace.
It will never be practical to display aircraft of any size or description outside on a long term basis in this country without a detrimental effect on the structure. Aircraft were simply not designed to be stored outside long term sat on their gear. What evidence of decay that can be seen on the outside of the aircraft is a fraction of the problem that is arising. Structural failure, corosion in fuel tanks etc etc is another aspect that although cannot be seen, is happening.
Unless we adopt a policy of putting aircraft under cover in climatically controlled environments, maintained by people who know how to preserve aircraft, the inevitable fact is that we will lose those remaining outside.
Again, I would ask for emotion to be taken away from aircraft preservation. We must realise that unless aircraft are preserved correctly for the years to come, they will have a shelf life and this is evident by what is going on at Cosford now. I would even suggest that this was known when the aircraft were delivered to Cosford. BA did start to look after the a/c by placing de-humidifiers etc on them and carrying out other work which would only prolong the inevtiable.
Let's identify which aircraft that are stored outside now and select which ones that should be preserved under cover in the correct conditions.
Then we should identify where they should be preserved and how. This should be done so that future generations can see our aviation heritage. It will cost a fortune, but can we warrant the cost? Who will pay for it?
On another note, it looks like the Brit will remain at Cosford, outside, as is the Brit at Duxford. Both look as though they will remain outside... and rot.
My point is that to some, aircraft such as the Brit are not 'sexy' enough to warrant under cover storage. How many Vulcans and Spifires are 'preserved' in the UK compared to Transport Aircraft? Duxford is putting some airliners under cover when the new superhangar development is complete..well done Duxford.. you are the first to do this in the UK on a notable scale..there are others doing it on a lesser scale due to space and cost.
To clarify my stance, I am a Transport Aviation person. I have worked on many of the aircraft now rotting at the locations that we are discussing when they were in service.
It worries me that we have the opportunity to preserve what remaining avaition heritage that we do have for future generations and whilst some positive moves are being made, a number of 'gems' will be lost forever very soon unless something is done quickly and with the long term in mind. That is quite a responsibility. As can be seen at Cosford, we are disecting some of the aircraft and keeping the cockpits rather like animals heads mounted by game hunters. I am one of those people who wonder what the whole animal looked like and now will never know.
Gets off soap box and dons tin hat
Temps
It will never be practical to display aircraft of any size or description outside on a long term basis in this country without a detrimental effect on the structure. Aircraft were simply not designed to be stored outside long term sat on their gear. What evidence of decay that can be seen on the outside of the aircraft is a fraction of the problem that is arising. Structural failure, corosion in fuel tanks etc etc is another aspect that although cannot be seen, is happening.
Unless we adopt a policy of putting aircraft under cover in climatically controlled environments, maintained by people who know how to preserve aircraft, the inevitable fact is that we will lose those remaining outside.
Again, I would ask for emotion to be taken away from aircraft preservation. We must realise that unless aircraft are preserved correctly for the years to come, they will have a shelf life and this is evident by what is going on at Cosford now. I would even suggest that this was known when the aircraft were delivered to Cosford. BA did start to look after the a/c by placing de-humidifiers etc on them and carrying out other work which would only prolong the inevtiable.
Let's identify which aircraft that are stored outside now and select which ones that should be preserved under cover in the correct conditions.
Then we should identify where they should be preserved and how. This should be done so that future generations can see our aviation heritage. It will cost a fortune, but can we warrant the cost? Who will pay for it?
On another note, it looks like the Brit will remain at Cosford, outside, as is the Brit at Duxford. Both look as though they will remain outside... and rot.
My point is that to some, aircraft such as the Brit are not 'sexy' enough to warrant under cover storage. How many Vulcans and Spifires are 'preserved' in the UK compared to Transport Aircraft? Duxford is putting some airliners under cover when the new superhangar development is complete..well done Duxford.. you are the first to do this in the UK on a notable scale..there are others doing it on a lesser scale due to space and cost.
To clarify my stance, I am a Transport Aviation person. I have worked on many of the aircraft now rotting at the locations that we are discussing when they were in service.
It worries me that we have the opportunity to preserve what remaining avaition heritage that we do have for future generations and whilst some positive moves are being made, a number of 'gems' will be lost forever very soon unless something is done quickly and with the long term in mind. That is quite a responsibility. As can be seen at Cosford, we are disecting some of the aircraft and keeping the cockpits rather like animals heads mounted by game hunters. I am one of those people who wonder what the whole animal looked like and now will never know.
Gets off soap box and dons tin hat
Temps
Last edited by Tempsford; 9th Apr 2006 at 13:56.
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BA have never had much of a genuine interest in their heritage,- and especially in their historic interest. For anyone in BAs management to display an interest in aircraft or indeed the aviation industry overall has always been a kiss of death. The unlamented Ayling is alleged to have said " I hate aircraft" and no pictures of aircraft adorned Waterside during his time there. Hence over the years the dispatch to the fire dump of the unique Argonaut and the BOAC Comet 4. The Hermes fuselage, inherited from Silver City, was saved by BUA although it never flew in BUA or BCAL colours. The demise of the Standard VC 10 and 707-436 is a tragedy and , as is said above, a sad comparaison with the restoration work and pride in history shown in Germany.
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Conservation, Preservation and Now where is that Fin!
Firstly I agree with the thrust of Temps post.
In part the problem is the way the British Aircraft Preservation Movement has 'grown up' (reliance on enthusiasm rather than money in most cases) in part our Climate and in part explaining to a sponsor that the purchase price of the Aircraft is actually only part (in some cases a small part) of the monies required.
We have reached a stage where simple Preservation (as in for God's sake we have got to save this), to Conservation (as in I want my great grandchild to see this), requires much more consideration than in the (recent) past.
The Science Museum Outstation has two beautiful large transport Aircraft under cover: a Connie in TWA Colours and Comet in Dan Air (both very appropriate) they look good and are well preserved, but I don't have a clue as whether they have been conserved (anti-corrosion treatment even in tanks etc) and like the rest of the outstation collection are rarely available to view.
But if a move from Preservation to Conservation is required (and it is), then funding requirements go through the roof (of any hangar you care to think of).
Whilst no organisation is immune from shortages in funding what they want/believe vital to achieve, I think I would rather be say, curator at one of the RAFM sites than at East Fortune or Newark.
I guess Lottery Funding and Private Sponsorship are the only realistic sources of serious capital for most organisations as whilst HMG talks big on Heritage, it does not allocate project money to, for instance ensuring a Shorts Belfast in Heavylift colours is conserved.
Obviously the situation is not all bleak, as the museums do what they can and apparently in somes cases by sheer willpower accomplish more than can be humanly expected.
Duxford (despite misplacing an entire Tailfin from a Hermes - Thanks Tredders for increasing my dried frog pill intake :-) is obviously progressing from preservation to conservation.
We have the History (in some cases just as we are forced to watch it rot), but open storage (even with anti-corrosion treatment) is only a stop-gap in 'our weather'.
So Hangars with all the ancillaries are the only answer and there lies the rub - can sufficient money be found to ensure that at least one example of each surviving Britsh built, (or at least significant to British Aviation) Large Transport be saved?
My heart says Yes, my cold calculating Head says No!
DIH
In part the problem is the way the British Aircraft Preservation Movement has 'grown up' (reliance on enthusiasm rather than money in most cases) in part our Climate and in part explaining to a sponsor that the purchase price of the Aircraft is actually only part (in some cases a small part) of the monies required.
We have reached a stage where simple Preservation (as in for God's sake we have got to save this), to Conservation (as in I want my great grandchild to see this), requires much more consideration than in the (recent) past.
The Science Museum Outstation has two beautiful large transport Aircraft under cover: a Connie in TWA Colours and Comet in Dan Air (both very appropriate) they look good and are well preserved, but I don't have a clue as whether they have been conserved (anti-corrosion treatment even in tanks etc) and like the rest of the outstation collection are rarely available to view.
But if a move from Preservation to Conservation is required (and it is), then funding requirements go through the roof (of any hangar you care to think of).
Whilst no organisation is immune from shortages in funding what they want/believe vital to achieve, I think I would rather be say, curator at one of the RAFM sites than at East Fortune or Newark.
I guess Lottery Funding and Private Sponsorship are the only realistic sources of serious capital for most organisations as whilst HMG talks big on Heritage, it does not allocate project money to, for instance ensuring a Shorts Belfast in Heavylift colours is conserved.
Obviously the situation is not all bleak, as the museums do what they can and apparently in somes cases by sheer willpower accomplish more than can be humanly expected.
Duxford (despite misplacing an entire Tailfin from a Hermes - Thanks Tredders for increasing my dried frog pill intake :-) is obviously progressing from preservation to conservation.
We have the History (in some cases just as we are forced to watch it rot), but open storage (even with anti-corrosion treatment) is only a stop-gap in 'our weather'.
So Hangars with all the ancillaries are the only answer and there lies the rub - can sufficient money be found to ensure that at least one example of each surviving Britsh built, (or at least significant to British Aviation) Large Transport be saved?
My heart says Yes, my cold calculating Head says No!
DIH
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How long do we have until the axe falls? I want to have a last look at the VC10, 707 and Trident before they are destroyed.
Also does Wroughton still have a Trident?
Also does Wroughton still have a Trident?
Well, I've voted AGAINST 'Museum of Flight' winning the Gulbenkian Prize due to the fact that, by accepting the aircraft from Cosford, an unique collection will be dispersed and some aircraft cut up for exhibit instead of remaining in their current complete state.
Ramasseur des pommes
You'll need to be quick...
I popped over to Cosford late this afternoon after fradu mentioned the fencing. Alas, he was right. Very sad. I was there only last weekend and there was no hint of the relocation at the museum.
A sign on the 707 fence says that the removal order is:
B707-436 (G-APFJ)
BAC 1-11-510 (G-AVMO)
Vickers Viscount 701 (G-AMOG)
HS Trident 1-C (G-ARPH)
Vickers VC10 (G-ARVM) to Brooklands.
A sign on the 707 fence says that the removal order is:
B707-436 (G-APFJ)
BAC 1-11-510 (G-AVMO)
Vickers Viscount 701 (G-AMOG)
HS Trident 1-C (G-ARPH)
Vickers VC10 (G-ARVM) to Brooklands.
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I take it that those of you who are angry about this have made your views known to Cosford and BA?
Email RAF Museum: [email protected] or [email protected]
Email BA Museum: [email protected]
Sorry, Willie Walsh won't let me have his email address.......but it doesn't stop you writing snailmail to him at BA Waterside.
Email RAF Museum: [email protected] or [email protected]
Email BA Museum: [email protected]
Sorry, Willie Walsh won't let me have his email address.......but it doesn't stop you writing snailmail to him at BA Waterside.
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Contacting BA and/or Cosford
I haven't contacted either. In the case of Cosford, I don't see them as to blame. They hosted the Collection and from what I glean did their best with decreasing support from BA.
As for BA, my anger over the Collection is probably a decade too late (in that to conserve these Aircraft should have been a continous ongoing budgeted and resourced activity).
As for my Concerns over BA's general stewardship of it's heritage, then my anger is 30+ Years too late, as when BEA and BOAC were brought together (a mega clash of cultures - which scarred management thinking for over a generation), there was a one-off opportunity to form an Historical Task Force (of Historians, not employees) which could have brought the strands of most of Britains Civil Aviation Heritage together in a documented archive. Some material was saved and went to Hendon intially?, but an awful lot was destroyed.
So perhaps my ire is due to the knowledge that I and indeed all the others who posted are unable to change one iota the current situation.
Whilst the BA Museum and Archive Web Site is a 'nod' in the right direction, the very slow rate of site development says an awful lot about the Corporate Attitude (as encapsulated by Skylion).
Finally: I did think BEagle was for once unfair. East Fortune are accepting the Aircraft and Bits, not their fault that the bits are all that is left of two important Airframes which cannot be saved!
DIH
As for BA, my anger over the Collection is probably a decade too late (in that to conserve these Aircraft should have been a continous ongoing budgeted and resourced activity).
As for my Concerns over BA's general stewardship of it's heritage, then my anger is 30+ Years too late, as when BEA and BOAC were brought together (a mega clash of cultures - which scarred management thinking for over a generation), there was a one-off opportunity to form an Historical Task Force (of Historians, not employees) which could have brought the strands of most of Britains Civil Aviation Heritage together in a documented archive. Some material was saved and went to Hendon intially?, but an awful lot was destroyed.
So perhaps my ire is due to the knowledge that I and indeed all the others who posted are unable to change one iota the current situation.
Whilst the BA Museum and Archive Web Site is a 'nod' in the right direction, the very slow rate of site development says an awful lot about the Corporate Attitude (as encapsulated by Skylion).
Finally: I did think BEagle was for once unfair. East Fortune are accepting the Aircraft and Bits, not their fault that the bits are all that is left of two important Airframes which cannot be saved!
DIH
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What sort of defeatist attitude is that, Opssys?
There was a time when the RAF had no interest in preservation and what was saved was down to a handful of forward-thinking private individuals. Then the RAF Museum was funded and a great RAF collection built up (at taxpayers' expense). At the time the airlines were making big profits and were able to contribute "private funding" to the preservation movement. I don't remember Cosford being reluctant to take BA's money then!
But right now BA has a financial crisis to contend with and has no money for this sort of thing. How does Cosford repay BA for the attraction the BA Collection brought to their museum? By cutting up the aircraft the instant the money runs out! I think that is disgraceful! Call itself a museum?
There is no doubt in my mind (and in the minds of the shareholders) that BA wil sort out its pension fund and start making big profits again quite soon. Why the rush? Why the pressure? Tow them to another part of the airfield and wait for new sponsorship if necessary.
This is nothing less than vandalism by Cosford at a time when BA has no option but to save what little it can at nil cost.
I for one will not forget this next time the RAF Museum asks for funds.
But I still believe that, with sufficient pressure on the RAF Museum and adverse publicity for BA, this can be halted.
There was a time when the RAF had no interest in preservation and what was saved was down to a handful of forward-thinking private individuals. Then the RAF Museum was funded and a great RAF collection built up (at taxpayers' expense). At the time the airlines were making big profits and were able to contribute "private funding" to the preservation movement. I don't remember Cosford being reluctant to take BA's money then!
But right now BA has a financial crisis to contend with and has no money for this sort of thing. How does Cosford repay BA for the attraction the BA Collection brought to their museum? By cutting up the aircraft the instant the money runs out! I think that is disgraceful! Call itself a museum?
There is no doubt in my mind (and in the minds of the shareholders) that BA wil sort out its pension fund and start making big profits again quite soon. Why the rush? Why the pressure? Tow them to another part of the airfield and wait for new sponsorship if necessary.
This is nothing less than vandalism by Cosford at a time when BA has no option but to save what little it can at nil cost.
I for one will not forget this next time the RAF Museum asks for funds.
But I still believe that, with sufficient pressure on the RAF Museum and adverse publicity for BA, this can be halted.
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Clearly there is not a bottomless pit of cash for aircraft preservation - but I just wonder whether the available cash is being spent in the best interests of the nation's aviation heritage. We have spent a lot of money preserving American aircraft indoors at Duxford (Ok, WW2 has relevance but a B52??) Getting the Vulcan airworthy may well have drained the pot of any lottery funding for other projects and whilst I would love to see it fly again - at what price? The Cosford Museum has decide to go "Cold War" and so we will have 2 Vulcans preserved inside (Hendon and Cosford) and another one in airworthy condition(for a few years at least). Is that really indicative of the importance of one ac type? - even one as special as the Vulcan. Meanwhile, less sexy but still historically important aircraft have been left to rot outside and will now be cut up because they don't fit a theme.
The Trident is unique and every effort should be made to save it intact. The loss of the VC10 will be sad - but maybe this clears the decks for Cosford to eventually aquire an RAF example. The 707 may be written off as American (although the Conways are a bit special). However, the most interesting aspect of the display is that these aircraft are collectively significant to the UK aircraft industry. The Trident maybe could have been as sucessful as the 727, but for BEA interference with the design. BOAC never wanted the VC10 and did everything they could to kill it off. The 707 was BOAC's desired aircraft, amid stories of underhand dealings. These 3 ac together represent milestones in the "what could have been" story of UK airliner manufacture. Maybe it is BA's ownership of the aircraft that has actually inhibited their use in telling the warts-and-all story of how BOAC, BEA, the goverment, and the industry itself ruined the British airliner. Throw in the Comet and mildly sucessful 1-11 (again what a chance was missed compared with the DC9 and 737) and this could have been a superb theme.
Cosford, BA and even BAE Systems should be ashamed.
The Trident is unique and every effort should be made to save it intact. The loss of the VC10 will be sad - but maybe this clears the decks for Cosford to eventually aquire an RAF example. The 707 may be written off as American (although the Conways are a bit special). However, the most interesting aspect of the display is that these aircraft are collectively significant to the UK aircraft industry. The Trident maybe could have been as sucessful as the 727, but for BEA interference with the design. BOAC never wanted the VC10 and did everything they could to kill it off. The 707 was BOAC's desired aircraft, amid stories of underhand dealings. These 3 ac together represent milestones in the "what could have been" story of UK airliner manufacture. Maybe it is BA's ownership of the aircraft that has actually inhibited their use in telling the warts-and-all story of how BOAC, BEA, the goverment, and the industry itself ruined the British airliner. Throw in the Comet and mildly sucessful 1-11 (again what a chance was missed compared with the DC9 and 737) and this could have been a superb theme.
Cosford, BA and even BAE Systems should be ashamed.