Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
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I'm glad to see the thread will stay.
Is there any truth, in the rumour I heard long ago. It's of Lightning v Vulcan at 50k+ ft, where the Vulcan, having low wing loading, could still turn on a sixpence, and the Lightning could still go like hell in a straight (and even vertical) line, but couldn't make a turn worth recording.
It's reported the helpful Vulcan could turn in front of the Lightning after being intercepted - perhaps generously to give him a guns opportunity - causing severe wake turbulence that caused the Lightning's Avons to flame-out, leaving it to drift with the grace of a brick to re-light height many thousands of feet below, while the Vulcan sauntered merrily on.
True or urban myth?
Is there any truth, in the rumour I heard long ago. It's of Lightning v Vulcan at 50k+ ft, where the Vulcan, having low wing loading, could still turn on a sixpence, and the Lightning could still go like hell in a straight (and even vertical) line, but couldn't make a turn worth recording.
It's reported the helpful Vulcan could turn in front of the Lightning after being intercepted - perhaps generously to give him a guns opportunity - causing severe wake turbulence that caused the Lightning's Avons to flame-out, leaving it to drift with the grace of a brick to re-light height many thousands of feet below, while the Vulcan sauntered merrily on.
True or urban myth?
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Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Never mind the pressure jerkin stuff, I had a Vulcan or two at 40'ish turn 180 degrees on me and face me after intercept: I even rang the crews later and heard their story. I could have been 'cold meat'.
They were large 'sixpences' but way smaller than mine. Some aircraft!
They were large 'sixpences' but way smaller than mine. Some aircraft!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
But the Vulcan relied a lot on the range calls by GCI to know when to start the turn. hence the exotic briefs by the Lightning pilots before the sortie...
"OK, if he's displaced left, call it on the right and half the range; if he's displaced right, call it on the left and double the range..."
And then got the range/side confused in the air.....
Best tactic was 2 Lightnings in about 4-6 mile trail with calls only to the lead. Vulcan turned for the lead and the trail got the shot...
IIRC there was a Lightning who turned in behind a Vulcan at night during an exercise which started a dive to get away. Something made the Lightning pilot take his head out of the scope and check - he was at M1.3 in a vertical dive. Shut the throttles, popped the airbrake switch, pulled and waited. Eventually blacked out as G started to build - and came too with the aircraft climbing and the altimeter unwinding through -500ft (+/- 700ft error?). Opened the throttles and took home a very very bent airframe.....
"OK, if he's displaced left, call it on the right and half the range; if he's displaced right, call it on the left and double the range..."
And then got the range/side confused in the air.....
Best tactic was 2 Lightnings in about 4-6 mile trail with calls only to the lead. Vulcan turned for the lead and the trail got the shot...
IIRC there was a Lightning who turned in behind a Vulcan at night during an exercise which started a dive to get away. Something made the Lightning pilot take his head out of the scope and check - he was at M1.3 in a vertical dive. Shut the throttles, popped the airbrake switch, pulled and waited. Eventually blacked out as G started to build - and came too with the aircraft climbing and the altimeter unwinding through -500ft (+/- 700ft error?). Opened the throttles and took home a very very bent airframe.....
Last edited by ORAC; 18th Nov 2006 at 08:08.
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Dragmaster v Lightning
1975 50 Sqn
Exercise Forearm
Jan 31, XM 654, captain Flt Lt M****n W*****s Akrotiri-Akrotiri , Affil vs 11 Sqn Frightnings. I don't remember them getting anywhere near to a solution in the entire time we were above FL 410. Our tactic was bolleaux though in that we went into a rate 1 turn for a half an hour until he was forced to cut and run for home so no real tactical wizardry; if we had been required to track progress we would have been knackered! Happy Days, confined to the SBA for 7 weeks with only flying and Brandy Sours to concentrate the mind and break up the boredom.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
1v2 or against a 2-man crew was what we feared most.
One day we were up against 2 Sea Vixen. Sh*t.
They were about 6 miles displaced on a 180.
We had them both visual and opted for a feint. As we turned towards one for a down the throat the other opened out to roll behind. We reversed. They swapped. We reversed and just rolled through.
'nother time, in Cyprus, on a 1v1 we had pre-briefed that they would comply with Russian rules.
As the Lightning came in on a 180 we got the I-band direction and turned towards. When we got visual we went down the throat with a vertical separation of about 500 feet and closure at about mach 2.
As he passed underneath he feinted one way then rolled the other. We went the opposite way and about 30 seconds later we completed the scissors with a somewhat lower vertical separation and closure just under mach 2.
The next call was knock it off.
It was about this time that the US DID had an article which included the quote "One 360 deg orbit, thrown sufficiently far out, will abort the average Mig 21 GCI."
One day we were up against 2 Sea Vixen. Sh*t.
They were about 6 miles displaced on a 180.
We had them both visual and opted for a feint. As we turned towards one for a down the throat the other opened out to roll behind. We reversed. They swapped. We reversed and just rolled through.
'nother time, in Cyprus, on a 1v1 we had pre-briefed that they would comply with Russian rules.
As the Lightning came in on a 180 we got the I-band direction and turned towards. When we got visual we went down the throat with a vertical separation of about 500 feet and closure at about mach 2.
As he passed underneath he feinted one way then rolled the other. We went the opposite way and about 30 seconds later we completed the scissors with a somewhat lower vertical separation and closure just under mach 2.
The next call was knock it off.
It was about this time that the US DID had an article which included the quote "One 360 deg orbit, thrown sufficiently far out, will abort the average Mig 21 GCI."
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
During WW2 the Luftwaffe used a call Emil Emil. The Y-service soon deduced that this was exactly the same as Tally and later Judy.
Thread Starter
ORAC, that was one very chastened Lightning pilot who was a good mate back then.
The Lightning had some form of airbrake protection system which prevented extension at 650? KIAS (I'm sure a WIWOL will confirm). So when...let's call him John...saw the nadir star slowly rotating in the centre of a sea of black the Attitude Indicator, he knew he was going vertically downwards at over the airbrake limit. Or "It was getting a bit noisy, the AI was all black and the little star was going round and round" as he put it.
He closed the throttles, selected the airbrakes and pulled as hard as he could to the nearest horizon..... The next thing he remembered was seeing the AI winding up through about 700 ft with the IAS falling through 200 KIAS with both at idle (ish) and the airbrakes now out. So, both burners in, airbrakes in and home cautiously to Binbrook.
It later transpired that he'd pulled to over 10 g (13 g was rumoured) and the aircraft had held together - somewhat paradoxically this later allowed BWoS to re-examine the Lightning fatigue life and to extend it!
The Lightning had some form of airbrake protection system which prevented extension at 650? KIAS (I'm sure a WIWOL will confirm). So when...let's call him John...saw the nadir star slowly rotating in the centre of a sea of black the Attitude Indicator, he knew he was going vertically downwards at over the airbrake limit. Or "It was getting a bit noisy, the AI was all black and the little star was going round and round" as he put it.
He closed the throttles, selected the airbrakes and pulled as hard as he could to the nearest horizon..... The next thing he remembered was seeing the AI winding up through about 700 ft with the IAS falling through 200 KIAS with both at idle (ish) and the airbrakes now out. So, both burners in, airbrakes in and home cautiously to Binbrook.
It later transpired that he'd pulled to over 10 g (13 g was rumoured) and the aircraft had held together - somewhat paradoxically this later allowed BWoS to re-examine the Lightning fatigue life and to extend it!
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Not sure if this is off thread as I can't be arrsed to read the whole thing.
Just finished reading Vulcan 607. What a great team effort that was - respec!
Just finished reading Vulcan 607. What a great team effort that was - respec!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Air Ministry
A miss Sir, a palpable miss.
Out of curiousity I clicked on the link to Air Ministry.
Every sort of ministry from priestly to sound but no air.
Sorry, that was based on th elink at th ebottom of CJ's message and now gone.
Out of curiousity I clicked on the link to Air Ministry.
Every sort of ministry from priestly to sound but no air.
Sorry, that was based on th elink at th ebottom of CJ's message and now gone.
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Pontius Navigator,
To paraphrase an earlier quote:
"Any adverts appearing against this Post are nothing to do with me, whether in the left panel or on the bottom."
And if they help keeping PPRuNe going, I can live with them.
Don't tell me you actually read any of the spam coming in on your email ???
To paraphrase an earlier quote:
"Any adverts appearing against this Post are nothing to do with me, whether in the left panel or on the bottom."
And if they help keeping PPRuNe going, I can live with them.
Don't tell me you actually read any of the spam coming in on your email ???
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CJ, I was not suggesting that you endorsed the advert. Clearly the text caused Air Ministry to be highlighted. This was not of course spam email but, as Danny requested, I had a quick look at the link.
What I was saying was that the Air Ministry pickup had no connection with the links.
What I was saying was that the Air Ministry pickup had no connection with the links.
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Despite the numerous extra handcuffs applied during Exercises reducing what we could do I always enjoyed Fighter - Bomber Affiliation. We undoubtedly embarrassed a few new Fighter Jocks, and some senior ones had the decency to admit that they had failed to get a missile solution. Single F4 or Lightning at height - no problem, ditto F104, but then along came the F16 and it was us being effortlessly out-turned.
I have a complimentary letter in my logbook from the RCAF team running their QWI course about the value we gave them at Bagotville. 2 x Fighters would get you in the end. Shame it took until the Falklands to get an Aim 9 fitted - could have claimed lots of Fox2s.
I have a complimentary letter in my logbook from the RCAF team running their QWI course about the value we gave them at Bagotville. 2 x Fighters would get you in the end. Shame it took until the Falklands to get an Aim 9 fitted - could have claimed lots of Fox2s.
Last edited by 50+Ray; 21st Nov 2006 at 08:26. Reason: spelling!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mig15,
I can't comment on this apparent event as I was not at Scampton at the time. There was the odd HTTP off-load and cooking of the missile. That might have been a reason.
The other one where the crew was whisked off in a crew bus without a debrief was a regular occurrence at Cottesmore.
After a Group Exercise, with aircraft recovering every 20 minutes or so, crews were collected and driven straight to ops for a combined Eng/Ops debrief. As you went in to Ops the brains trust was lined up behind the coffee bar in the hall.
First the Eng Debrief followed by the Ops. Each sub-specialisation would then debrief with the appropriate wing specialist. On one particular occasion I fielded a call from 1 Gp Ops 1a who had a question either that the AOC had asked or might ask.
Can't recall the details just now but it may have been to explain a 'long bomb' (big score). Whilst it smacked of Big Brother it also made you aware of the importance of a 'simple' 5 hours exercise sortie.
I can't comment on this apparent event as I was not at Scampton at the time. There was the odd HTTP off-load and cooking of the missile. That might have been a reason.
The other one where the crew was whisked off in a crew bus without a debrief was a regular occurrence at Cottesmore.
After a Group Exercise, with aircraft recovering every 20 minutes or so, crews were collected and driven straight to ops for a combined Eng/Ops debrief. As you went in to Ops the brains trust was lined up behind the coffee bar in the hall.
First the Eng Debrief followed by the Ops. Each sub-specialisation would then debrief with the appropriate wing specialist. On one particular occasion I fielded a call from 1 Gp Ops 1a who had a question either that the AOC had asked or might ask.
Can't recall the details just now but it may have been to explain a 'long bomb' (big score). Whilst it smacked of Big Brother it also made you aware of the importance of a 'simple' 5 hours exercise sortie.
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Ref: O2 Thief Post 18 November.
Hi there JG. if you recall I was the Co on XM654 31 January 1975. According to my Log Book, we did 4x28 as well; don't remember the scores though. I trust the wardrobes are now dry and the windows closed!!
Thread Starter
Mig15, I was once told that someone with a Yellow Sun on board nearly dropped the thing on York Minster due to carrying out a simulated Type 2 attack as far as selecting bomb doors auto...
Not sure whether it was a real one, or a 'shape'....
Time would be about right.
Not sure whether it was a real one, or a 'shape'....
Time would be about right.