Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
ORAC, that was one very chastened Lightning pilot who was a good mate back then.
The Lightning had some form of airbrake protection system which prevented extension at 650? KIAS (I'm sure a WIWOL will confirm). So when...let's call him John...saw the nadir star slowly rotating in the centre of a sea of black the Attitude Indicator, he knew he was going vertically downwards at over the airbrake limit. Or "It was getting a bit noisy, the AI was all black and the little star was going round and round" as he put it.
He closed the throttles, selected the airbrakes and pulled as hard as he could to the nearest horizon..... The next thing he remembered was seeing the AI winding up through about 700 ft with the IAS falling through 200 KIAS with both at idle (ish) and the airbrakes now out. So, both burners in, airbrakes in and home cautiously to Binbrook.
It later transpired that he'd pulled to over 10 g (13 g was rumoured) and the aircraft had held together - somewhat paradoxically this later allowed BWoS to re-examine the Lightning fatigue life and to extend it!
The Lightning had some form of airbrake protection system which prevented extension at 650? KIAS (I'm sure a WIWOL will confirm). So when...let's call him John...saw the nadir star slowly rotating in the centre of a sea of black the Attitude Indicator, he knew he was going vertically downwards at over the airbrake limit. Or "It was getting a bit noisy, the AI was all black and the little star was going round and round" as he put it.
He closed the throttles, selected the airbrakes and pulled as hard as he could to the nearest horizon..... The next thing he remembered was seeing the AI winding up through about 700 ft with the IAS falling through 200 KIAS with both at idle (ish) and the airbrakes now out. So, both burners in, airbrakes in and home cautiously to Binbrook.
It later transpired that he'd pulled to over 10 g (13 g was rumoured) and the aircraft had held together - somewhat paradoxically this later allowed BWoS to re-examine the Lightning fatigue life and to extend it!
Thread Starter
IIRC, wasn't Jake J****n one of the pilots on that last flight?
Some years earlier, we did a bit of affil with him when he was on exchange on the CF-101. They got us with a simulated Genie, but we got into their six in the post-merge doggers session! Much to the chagrin of his WSO..."How didya' let something that big get behind us, Jake?"
Some years earlier, we did a bit of affil with him when he was on exchange on the CF-101. They got us with a simulated Genie, but we got into their six in the post-merge doggers session! Much to the chagrin of his WSO..."How didya' let something that big get behind us, Jake?"
........crikey might have to go and have a lie down now, dragging that out of the depths of the dormant grey matter after 18 years has now taken it's toll.
Don't recall seeing it mentioned in print anywhere......not anything I've got in print on the Frightning anyway.
Jackonicko did a piece on the mighty beast in the now-defunct journal Wings of Fame which mentions them, and I thought, perhaps wrongly, that Last of the Lightnings makes reference to the two chaps also.
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Who is the photographer in this sad scene? It's RAF Scampton in November 1982 as XM595 succumbs to the Scrapman's JCB. It is taken from underneath XL359 and if you look behind '595 you can see a very sad looking XJ780. Obviously, after '595 had succumbed '359 was next. There is a picture in Tim Lamings books V-bombers and Avro Vulcan 1952-2002 of this scene taken from the rear but who took this picture and do any more survive of this event? Were any ex Scampton men there at the time?
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I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Chairborne,
For a free and very simple image editor use Google's Picasa2. Should do a bit of colour correction for you.
For a free and very simple image editor use Google's Picasa2. Should do a bit of colour correction for you.
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Varied Opinions
The thread will not be deleted. If someone wants to delete their own posts in a hissy fit they can. They ain't taking this thread out with it though.
Crashes get discussed on PPRuNe. Reading any thread or contributing to it is not compulsary. That's the way we do it here. That's how we have run the place for 10 years. That's how it stays.
Don't like it? Avoid the thread or go elsewhere.
Rob
Crashes get discussed on PPRuNe. Reading any thread or contributing to it is not compulsary. That's the way we do it here. That's how we have run the place for 10 years. That's how it stays.
Don't like it? Avoid the thread or go elsewhere.
Rob
Sorry for the late post have just returned from holiday, I was watching the posts on the Glenview inicident and had no wish to have the thread deleted. Now I'm back and Rob has confirmed non deletion I will give my opinion on releasing information, and as Rob said either read it or skip it, it's your choice.
Thanks Pontius Navigator for your comments and thoughts,
my father was killed in Xh536 when I was 7 and to wait 30 years for information was difficult in the extreme. (Now this only applies to me as I will not assume on anyones behalf) I needed this information a lot sooner than it was available, the rumour mill was rife with theories on the reasons for the accident which subsequently clouded our families thoughts for many years of cover ups, failed parts,TFR testing, poor workmanship etc etc etc.
I had to sit back and wait till I was 37 to get a very simple answer - pilot error - poor decison making - whatever you wish to call it, the pilot made an error - was that so hard to say? That 30 year wait was painful, the mental anguish as child thinking your father the Navigator got it wrong and smacked a mountain and killed 4 other men was not a pleasant experience and one I would not wish on anyone.
However as we grow older and wiser!! (ha ha) in my late 20's I found it easier to blame the RAF for their obvious cover ups etc I just got angrier. It was easier to make pilgramages to the crashsite and the gravesite and vow to bring someone to justice- naaive but true - I admit.
It's taken me a long time to come to terms with the loss of my dad and the reason for it.
When it came time to obtain copies of the accident reports it was a real let down - no state secrets or dodgy flight engineers, no wings falling off, engine flame outs, no secret TFR trial testing - just poor old pilot error.
So on one hand I have metally apologised for all my wrong thinking to my dad, the Air force and all the crews associated with the aircraft and WingCo "Polly" for making them fly. On the flipside the Pilots family have my deepest sympathy it must have been agony for them to find out the reason, they will have gone through those 30 years like we did. Would it have been easier to let them and us know then? we could have taken some time to repair our lives without the dredging of info and the rumours for 30 years - tough call but for me there is only 1 answer.
My own difficulties have lain in not being able to piece together the kind of man my father was,I only have 3 distinct memories of him and each of those is vague due to my age (both then and now) and his always being in Tengah, Ghan, Butterworth etc etc. When aircrew are killed in these circumstances, the initial response from other crew and families is fantastic but after a while it's too close to home and they all gradually drift away, it's not deliberate or planned it's self preservation, when you could be next, it's better not to dwell on it. So it got more difficult to get information as we drifted from the forces and camp life into civilian life.
The reason I scour the airwaves for info is that it's so hard to get and you guys are the best source, some of you are actually from the same era!! man you must be gettin' on!!!
So a huge thank you for contributing to the threads, they are a form of history that not many people are aware of or are actually interested in, but to those who are, it's our bible......
I am sure there are many families that have no desire to keep being prodded for information and if they feel that way I am fairly sure they will not be reading these forums.
I love to read all your comments, and we all have to remember to repsect the opinions of others (it's also why you can email other members privatley if you have something to say and have no wish to "air" it)
Stay upright
John
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Photographs
This is really a new thread but I don't know how to start one! Has any one got some good close pictures of Mk1 and Mk2 instrument panels. Particularly interested in Control Surface Indicator, fuel panel, flying control controls on left side etc. Need them in a hurry, preferably high res but would be very happy to scan pictures and return.
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Before anybody feels an instant urge to shoot TheVulcan down,
check his profile first.
At least he's got a serious background, not your typical anorak.
Haven't read his books yet, though. But will do.
check his profile first.
At least he's got a serious background, not your typical anorak.
Haven't read his books yet, though. But will do.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Vulcan,
I don't know where you are but there are plenty of Mk 2s around that you caan photograph. Not sure about Mk 1s maybe the RAF Museum for photos.
I don't know where you are but there are plenty of Mk 2s around that you caan photograph. Not sure about Mk 1s maybe the RAF Museum for photos.
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The nose of the MK1 at Cosford may still exist and I believe the one from 903 is still around (http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co...survivors.html). Being a trials A/C, though, I would imagine that 903 may not be representative. I have e-mailed 903's last owner for advice and I wll report soonest. I owe the Vulcan a favour from many years ago.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tim, I think CJ was using the expression 'archives' in a loose form.
For archives read a general concept of museums, national archives etc, just a question of latteral thought.
I don't know what the RAF Museum has in the way of Aircrew Manuals etc except that there was no Aircrew Manual for the Vulcan until the 1970s. There would have been pilot's notes for the Mk 1 however.
Then Avro's - aka HS - aka BA Systems - aka BAE may have them squirrelled away somewhere too.
For archives read a general concept of museums, national archives etc, just a question of latteral thought.
I don't know what the RAF Museum has in the way of Aircrew Manuals etc except that there was no Aircrew Manual for the Vulcan until the 1970s. There would have been pilot's notes for the Mk 1 however.
Then Avro's - aka HS - aka BA Systems - aka BAE may have them squirrelled away somewhere too.
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I know, I was just being sarcastic - life would be so much fun if there was some great archive somewhere that housed all the documents, photos and drawings for aircraft like the Vulcan. Of course the tragic reality is that you just have to find scraps here and there. This is why there's never "anything new" whenever a "new" book comes along (and I admit I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to churning-out old information!) but what can you do?! There's quite a lot of stuff tucked away in the Public Records Office which is worth looking through, but if anyboy has ever actually tried to get information from Kew, you'll know what a tedious and soul-destroying job that can be!