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-   -   Project Winton- Airbus (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644222-project-winton-airbus.html)

717tech 19th Dec 2021 23:02

Shortshortz, what's an "open-time system"?

Boomerang 20th Dec 2021 01:52


Originally Posted by Buttscratcher (Post 11158029)
.....what's 'flexline'?

Jetstar speak for 75% part time. The resultant OT threshold for block hours is 56hrs.


Buttscratcher 20th Dec 2021 02:24

Ah, right, thanks mate.
Well, I guess it's still a sad fact of life that folks get paid different wages for flying the same machinery.
The situation is unlikely to change with new EBAs, as the Q juggernaut negotiators are ruthless.

flying_a_nix_box 20th Dec 2021 04:42

As SLF, I much prefer Le Bus, to the Boeing. Nice to see them go this way.

Blueskymine 20th Dec 2021 04:46


Originally Posted by shortshortz (Post 11158176)
Do you just make up figures as you go?
QF line captain on "min hours" is on 53hrs pm vs JQ on 75hrs at a base less than QF. The "hard arses", as you put it, can then make an additional 47hrs OT to bring them up to 100 hrs pm at an overtime rate in excess of $80 ph more than JQ, even though JQ only have the ability to squeeze in 25 hrs OT to reach 100hrs pm. These "hard arses" who work similar hours to every JQ pilot (pre covid) then make in excess of $400k. The "vast majority" are on over $300k, and if you argue they're not, then they must be on not much more than 53hrs pm, which puts them similar to a JQ flexi-line pilot (part time) on $150k. No matter which way you slice it, QF sit on $100k more, for working less weekends, holidays, early shifts, with more support, significantly higher bonuses (4 fold), 3% pa currently, 13 rosters pa (again an ability to bank OT), easier EBA sign offs, ability to move to LH award, an open-time system, heck even 50 less pax per a/c. Basically false? Your whole statement is false.

Ones a full service airline, with narrow selection criteria, long lead times to command and promotion.

The other is a low cost airline, short lead times to command and promotion and a wider selection criteria.

So six years at JQ to command wages (precovid) of a 200k+ job, or 15 years sub 200k at mainline as a narrow body FO or SO, then maybe 5 years as a wide body FO, before choosing a bigger wide body or a narrow body command.

At the end of a 35 year career, you may find that the JQ pilot will be ahead in total earnings. I donít have time to work out it. But it wonít be far off.

SHVC 20th Dec 2021 06:10


Originally Posted by Blueskymine (Post 11158480)

So six years at JQ to command wages (precovid) of a 200k+ job, or 15 years sub 200k at mainline as a narrow body FO or SO, then maybe 5 years as a wide body FO, before choosing a bigger wide body or a narrow body command.

6yr command was what it was about 2yrs ago. Itís funny flying with cadets who roll their eyes in sigh saying it took them 6 long yrs to get a command, most of them donít have a clue! JQ commands will blow well out to 10yrs+ for a new joiner- we have a young CPT group not to many at retirement age and the ones that are, are keen to keep going.

As for the money- One is an airline the other is a LCC it is what it is. If you want to earn Airline money go work for one. For me, I like JQ the flying is great, variety is good.

Buttscratcher 20th Dec 2021 09:25

LLC vs an 'airline'?? WTF are you trying to say, man?
If you're talking full service, full price 'airline', then what of Network and Cobham? Folks booking a QF ticket on the system from Per to BME will still pay top Qantas dollar.
no LLC there.

Blueskymine 20th Dec 2021 12:46


Originally Posted by Buttscratcher (Post 11158550)
LLC vs an 'airline'?? WTF are you trying to say, man?
If you're talking full service, full price 'airline', then what of Network and Cobham? Folks booking a QF ticket on the system from Per to BME will still pay top Qantas dollar.
no LLC there.

Regional airlines.

Ollie Onion 20th Dec 2021 21:24

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.

Jetsbest 20th Dec 2021 23:03

Hmmm.
 

LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.
Not necessarilyÖ. Itís not like that for Southwest Airlines in the USA is it?Ö. I heard theyíre the highest-paid 737 pilots in the world.🤔

neville_nobody 20th Dec 2021 23:17


LCC v Legacy, fact of the matter is you can always expect LCC to be paid less than a Legacy carrier.
Interestingly management don't have the same expectation.

morno 20th Dec 2021 23:45


Originally Posted by neville_nobody (Post 11158877)
Interestingly management don't have the same expectation.

Well become a manager then

krismiler 21st Dec 2021 00:34

Low cost equals quicker time to command but less money when you get it. Legacy airline equals longer time to command but more money when you switch seats.

The main factor is age at joining, if you're early 20s then being in QF would put you ahead. Late 30s and JQ would be more lucrative.

Australopithecus 21st Dec 2021 08:03

I really don’t think that fast commands are still a thing at JQ. As previously mentioned, the fleet size is approaching its natural limit, the existing captain cohort is younger than airline average. QF had a lost decade without hiring or promotions. The demographics there are much in favour of the new joiner because the airline appears to be expanding and the retirements will soon accelerate. I imagine a new hire at QF could get a SH command* in ten years, or a right seat on a senior LH type which may be as lucrative anyway.

*Assumes industrial status quo. Assumes QF group revenue recovery sometime soon. Also assumes wet markets don’t cough up another pathogen anytime soon. All big, unsafe assumptions.

dr dre 21st Dec 2021 09:35


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 11158964)
. I imagine a new hire at QF could get a SH command* in ten years.

Not even close.....

At the moment 19-22 years depending on base. It may come down in the future, but 10 years?

Tell him heís dreaming.....

Australopithecus 21st Dec 2021 09:51

Its 19-22 years right now because of the demographics. You write some of the only posts worth reading in this site so you are plenty smart enough to know that nothing lasts forever. There is a ten year unoccupied gap on the career progression ladder. The last person above that gap will indeed be circa 20 years. The next person not so much.

dr dre 21st Dec 2021 12:43


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 11159020)
Its 19-22 years right now because of the demographics. You write some of the only posts worth reading in this site so you are plenty smart enough to know that nothing lasts forever. There is a ten year unoccupied gap on the career progression ladder. The last person above that gap will indeed be circa 20 years. The next person not so much.

At the moment, yes itís a long time to command. Yes, there will be demographic changes. And some who were at the start of the 2016-2020 recruiting wave will have a shorter time to career goals than most. They may even come close to getting a command within 10 years. But I donít think it will become a regular thing for all entrants into the company. Upswings are usually followed by downswings.

Overall in a Legacy carrier with most LH cruise relief pilots employed as Second officers you could expect what 20% of your career SO, 40% as FO 40% as Captain? If you have a 40 year career thatís still at least 20 years in standard times before getting a command.

Quick commands can come around when thereís great expansion, like almost doubling the fleet in two years when the 747-300 and 767 were introduced in the mid 80s, plenty of commands achieved in record time for those at the start of that wave. But that now would mean looking at an additional net 120 aircraft coming in a short amount of time.

But hey, at least weíre talking expansion, recruitment and potentially quicker commands rather than redundancies and stand downs!

das Uber Soldat 21st Dec 2021 12:56


Originally Posted by Blueskymine (Post 11158480)
Ones a full service airline, with narrow selection criteria,

The other is a low cost airline, with..... wider selection criteria

I got a good chuckle out of this nonsense. Tell me, are they still telling new recruits on day 1 at mainline that they're 'the best of the best'?

I've been offered a job by both entities and I've got some bad news for you kid, there ain't nothing special about the 'width of the selection criteria' at Qantas. You lot are just as dumb as the rest of us.

Eclan 21st Dec 2021 13:04


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11156559)
Itís a simple replacement for the 737ís, why the f**k would they try and farm the flying out :ugh:. Shit thereís some paranoid ones amongst you.

How long have you been in aviation? If you were flying in the last century you'd know farming out or otherwise changing the deal is precisely what "they" will try to do at every opportunity and a new fleet is as good an opportunity as it gets. Look up something called Project Sunrise which is a working title for an attempt at changing conditions. "They" rely on the good and unsuspecting nature of the masses not to see the pineapple on its way.

PoppaJo 21st Dec 2021 13:12

When looking into demographics, those arriving for an interview in around 10 years will spend probably no more than 5 years waiting for a command at the Star. Would be much longer still at Mainline however it wouldnít be 20 years. Whilst the age in the left seat at the Star skews much younger, they are more likely to pack up for another job later on vs the other 2. Cadets with 4 bars now, wonít be able to sit still for the next 20-30 years at a loco. I recall the youngest VA Captain was mid 40s so mid next decade the entire QF and VA 737 ranks are retired.


So those getting the first GA job in the next couple of years shouldnít have too many issues on the job front when the time for big stuff arrives in a decade.

The days of long waits for commands will be a thing of the past once the tail end of Gen Y, and then Gen Z start to take the industry off our hands. Purely as there will be very little pilots left, and a whole heap of retirements. However, those two generations donít want to be Pilots by the looks of things, many more attractive industries now available to them.



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