PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific-90/)
-   -   Project Winton- Airbus (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644222-project-winton-airbus.html)

Keg 15th Dec 2021 21:56

Project Winton- Airbus
 
Looks like QF is going the Airbus route for domestic fleet replacement. Interesting times.


  • Airbus A320neo and Airbus A220 families selected as preferred aircraft types.
  • In-principle agreement for up to 134 orders and purchase right options over 10 plus years with deliveries from FY24 onwards.
  • Combines with existing Jetstar order to give the Qantas Group significant flexibility on timing and aircraft type/size.
  • Order is expected to be finalised by the end of FY22.
Qantas has selected the Airbus A320neo and Airbus A220 families as the preferred aircraft for the long-term renewal of its domestic narrow-body fleet.

A firm commitment for 40 aircraft – 20 A321XLR (extra long-range) and 20 A220 aircraft – is expected to be placed with Airbus by the end of FY22, following discussions with employees about arrangements to operate the new aircraft types and a final decision by the Qantas Board.

Qantas will also have a further 94 purchase right options[1] on aircraft over a 10-plus year delivery window as its existing Boeing 737-800s and 717s are gradually phased out.

The order is in addition to Jetstar’s existing agreement with Airbus for over 100 aircraft in the A320neo family. Part of this new deal includes combining these two orders so that the Group can draw down on a total of 299 deliveries across both the A320 and A220 families as needed over the next decade and beyond for Qantas, QantasLink and Jetstar.

Once finalised, this will represent the largest aircraft order in Australian aviation history.

Financial details of the deal are commercial in confidence but represent a material discount from list prices.

Today’s announcement follows a detailed review by the airline’s engineering, flight operations, customer experience, network, fleet procurement and finance teams. The airline conducted detailed evaluation of the A320neo and B737 MAX families as well as the smaller A220 and Embraer E190/195-E2s.

SELECTED AIRCRAFT

The initial firm order concentrates on the larger, single-aisle A321XLR, and the mid-size A220-300 with purchase right options for the smaller A220-100, giving Qantas a fleet mix that can deliver better network choices and route economics.

The XLR can carry around 15 per cent more passengers on each flight than the airline’s existing B737-800s, making it well suited to busy routes between capital cities like Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Its longer range means it can also be used to open up new city pairs.

The small and medium size A220s provide the Group with flexibility to deploy these aircraft throughout most of its domestic and regional operations. They could be used during off peak times between major cities and on key regional routes to increase frequency.

Both aircraft types will be powered by Pratt & Whitney GTF™ engines and will deliver fuel savings of between 15-20 per cent, contributing to the airline’s broader emission reduction efforts.

CEO COMMENTARY

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce said the airline had called the renewal of its domestic fleet Project Winton after the town where the national carrier was born 101 years ago, because it’s a key strategic decision for the future of Qantas Domestic.

“This is a long-term renewal plan with deliveries and payments spread over the next decade and beyond, but the similarly long lead time for aircraft orders means we need to make these decisions now.

“Qantas is in a position to make these commitments because of the way we’ve navigated through the pandemic, which is a credit to the whole organization.

“This is a clear sign of our confidence in the future and we’ve locked in pricing just ahead of what’s likely to be a big uptick in demand for next-generation narrow-body aircraft. That’s good news for our customers, our people and our shareholders.

“We’ll be having discussions with our people to ensure we have the arrangements necessary to support such a large investment.

“Can I thank Airbus, Boeing, Embraer and the engine manufacturers for the efforts they put into this process. This was a very tough choice to make. Each option delivered on our core requirements around safety, capability and emissions reductions. But when you multiply even small benefits in areas like range or cost across this many aircraft and over the 20 years they’ll be in the fleet, Airbus was the right choice as preferred tenderer.

“The Airbus deal had the added advantage of providing ongoing flexibility within the order, meaning we can continue to choose between the entire A320neo and A220 families depending on our changing needs in the years ahead. The ability to combine the Jetstar and Qantas order for the A320 type was also a factor.

“The A320 will be new for Qantas Domestic, but we already know it’s a great aircraft because it’s been the backbone of Jetstar’s success for more than 15 years and more recently operating the resources industry in Western Australia.

“The A220 is such a versatile aircraft which has become popular with airline customers in the United States and Europe because it has the capability to fly regional routes as well as longer sectors between capital cities.

“The combination of small, medium and large jets and the different range and economics they each bring means we can have the right aircraft on the right route.

“For customers, that means having more departures throughout the day on a smaller aircraft, or extra capacity at peak times with a larger aircraft. Or the ability to start a new regional route because the economics of the aircraft make it possible.

“We have some exciting plans for the next-generation cabins we’ll put on these aircraft, which will offer improvements for passengers that we’ll share in coming months.

“Importantly, these aircraft will deliver a step change in reducing fuel burn and carbon emissions compared with our current fleet, which gets us closer to the net zero target we’ve set,” added Mr Joyce.

AIRCRAFT SPECIFICATIONS

Note: Aircraft information has been sourced from manufacturers’ websites. Specifications are indicative only and not reflective of the specifications of any potential aircraft order by Qantas.

ThunderstormFactory 15th Dec 2021 22:29

That’s a lot of new type ratings.

bazza stub 15th Dec 2021 22:36


Originally Posted by ThunderstormFactory (Post 11156520)
That’s a lot of new type ratings.

I guess they are hoping pilots sell themselves short to win these new shiny jets, that way the type ratings will be effectively free.

Going Nowhere 15th Dec 2021 22:36

following discussions with employees about arrangements to operate the new aircraft types and a final decision by the Qantas Board.”

Expect the usual “this is the price you need to be at” type of discussions to take place among the various AOC’s

Bula 15th Dec 2021 22:39

Different engine to Jetstar?

wf747 15th Dec 2021 22:39


Originally Posted by bazza stub (Post 11156524)
I guess they are hoping pilots sell themselves short to win these new shiny jets, that way the type ratings will be effectively free.

type ratings normally come as part of the package with the new aircraft

Capt Fathom 15th Dec 2021 22:43

So they’ll end up with a new fleet of….. 12. :E

ANCDU 15th Dec 2021 22:43

You’ve would have had to been pretty naive not to see this coming, it’s probably a smart move being able to move aircraft around between Domestic and Jetstar.

Does bring up the concern over crewing though, with a ready made entity already operating in Perth I think AIPA are about to earn their fees!

Arthur D 15th Dec 2021 22:49

Let the games begin..

Whilst it seems inevitable that mainline will operate the A320 and NJS the A220, popcorn will be the perfect accompaniment to the IR theatre about to begin.

The old stalking horse of EFA will be joined by network as the ‘alternative operators……’

Wonder how the JQ gang will go with mainline operating the same aircraft on the same route for 30% more? Right pilot right customer?

Haircuts for all I’d say

Mach1Muppet 15th Dec 2021 23:19

Interestingly the post has been removed from Instagram

Max Tow 15th Dec 2021 23:38

Perhaps a sigh of relief in Canberra? Does that make up for the submarines and will Scotty & Micron kiss and make up at the signing in TLS?

The Banjo 15th Dec 2021 23:38

The savings and efficiencies just on containerised baggage and freight will be huge.

aussieflyboy 15th Dec 2021 23:57

Mainline Pilots:

“NJS and Network are going to get given even more of our flying 😡”

NJS Pilots:

“Mainline and Network are going to get given all our flying 😵”

Network Pilots:

“Let’s get as much of Mainline and NJSs flying as we can 😃”

Sunstate/Eastern Pilots:

“This is our chance to get a jet and take all of NJS and Networks flying 😃”

morno 15th Dec 2021 23:59


Originally Posted by ANCDU (Post 11156532)
You’ve would have had to been pretty naive not to see this coming, it’s probably a smart move being able to move aircraft around between Domestic and Jetstar.

Does bring up the concern over crewing though, with a ready made entity already operating in Perth I think AIPA are about to earn their fees!

Ohh here we go :rolleyes:

It’s a simple replacement for the 737’s, why the f**k would they try and farm the flying out :ugh:. Shit there’s some paranoid ones amongst you.

Great news for Qantas. Hope the sane crews enjoy flying them, because I’ll certainly enjoy being down the back on them compared to the 737’s.

Ollie Onion 16th Dec 2021 00:33

Company email stated that ‘discussions’ with work groups about the arrangements to be put in place to fly these aircraft will start in the new year. Also made the statement that no payments towards the new aircraft wouldn’t be made until the new agreements were finalised. Get ready for the pineapple!

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 00:45


Originally Posted by Ollie Onion (Post 11156567)
Company email stated that ‘discussions’ with work groups about the arrangements to be put in place to fly these aircraft will start in the new year. Also made the statement that no payments towards the new aircraft wouldn’t be made until the new agreements were finalised. Get ready for the pineapple!

A321 to replace A330 on regional and domestic flying.

Negotiations with employee groups will be about it not being flown on the LH award.

That’s where the battle will be.

PoppaJo 16th Dec 2021 01:17

Hands were sort of tied as the 110 odd A320/1 existing order couldn’t be reduced or changed, unless the company wanted to increase its order. Jetstar Japan, Singapore, now dead Vietnam, originally was going to source from this 2011 order. That changed a few years ago to now not. Gives them the flexibility to also change delivery dates now.

Not great for Boeing and whatever follows the MAX next decade.

Will be a large pay gap between the Star and Mainline on the bus though, especially as one of those groups works more.

EPIRB 16th Dec 2021 01:20


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 11156570)
A321 to replace A330 on regional and domestic flying.

Negotiations with employee groups will be about it not being flown on the LH award.

That’s where the battle will be.

Unfortunately the short haul award is only applicable to the Boeing 737 and the company apparently wouldn't change Boeing 737 to Narrow Body aircraft.

Going Boeing 16th Dec 2021 01:34

I believe that this is the right decision for quite a number of reasons. The A320/321 cabin is so much more comfortable than the sardine can B737 Max cabin so this means that the Qantas Group will offer a superior product than Virgin, Rex & Bonza.

By combining the Mainline Domestic & Jetstar fleets gives the fleet size to achieve significant operational and maintenance savings. The A321XLR’s payload/range makes it very flexible for many routes such that they may be able to do the Jetstar Asian routes thus allowing the B787-8’s to be disposed of - a further reduction in costs.

Boeing kicked an own goal when they took Bombardier to court, it resulted in the “C” Series being given to Airbus to be marketed as the A220 and it perfectly complements the A320/321 range.


Originally Posted by morno (Post 11156559)
Shit there’s some paranoid ones amongst you.

The paranoia comes from the 13 years experience of Joyce’s brutal management style - he’s never missed an opportunity to strip wages and conditions off his employees. The one positive is that he has finally ordered some new aircraft for Qantas Mainline (the B787-9’s were ordered by his predecessor).

OnceBitten 16th Dec 2021 01:59


Originally Posted by Going Boeing (Post 11156579)
I believe that this is the right decision for quite a number of reasons. The A320/321 cabin is so much more comfortable than the sardine can B737 Max cabin so this means that the Qantas Group will offer a superior product than Virgin, Rex & Bonza.

By combining the Mainline Domestic & Jetstar fleets gives the fleet size to achieve significant operational and maintenance savings. The A321XLR’s payload/range makes it very flexible for many routes such that they may be able to do the Jetstar Asian routes thus allowing the B787-8’s to be disposed of - a further reduction in costs.

Boeing kicked an own goal when they took Bombardier to court, it resulted in the “C” Series being given to Airbus to be marketed as the A220 and it perfectly complements the A320/321 range.



The paranoia comes from the 13 years experience of Joyce’s brutal management style - he’s never missed an opportunity to strip wages and conditions off his employees. The one positive is that he has finally ordered some new aircraft for Qantas Mainline (the B787-9’s were ordered by his predecessor).

Except for one minor detail is that he still hasn't ordered them yet. Same as the 350's for project sunrise, they are the "preferred" option.

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 02:24


Originally Posted by EPIRB (Post 11156574)
Unfortunately the short haul award is only applicable to the Boeing 737 and the company apparently wouldn't change Boeing 737 to Narrow Body aircraft.

Not necessarily SH award. It may be conditions close to short haul though.

I envisage it’ll be similar to the LH negotiations over the 787 and then the 350.

They’ll want the 320/21 on conditions similar to the SH award but with efficiencies to suit longer sectors.

They preferably want to avoid an industrial dispute and just have pilots sign off on an agreement. But willing to have the option of outsourcing, just like the 787 and 350, in the background if discussions aren’t to their liking.

logansi 16th Dec 2021 03:28

I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

ChrisJ800 16th Dec 2021 04:34

Boeing need to lift their game. Virgin are going for the Max so its a good point of differentiation!

Torukmacto 16th Dec 2021 04:57

Can you ccq from 320 to 220 ? They are different manufactures ? No cost savings running a fleet of 321’s and 220’s .

Alt Flieger 16th Dec 2021 05:26

Shows how badly Boeing dropped the ball with the Max.and not replacing the B737 earlier.
Lot of rusted on Boeing drivers at QF.
But there has been a lot of exchange of Pilots between Jetstar and Mainline over the years and many coming back to the B737-800 will tell you that
the A320 /A321 is a superior product.
So no suprise really.


Icarus2001 16th Dec 2021 06:51


Mainline Pilots:

“NJS and Network are going to get given even more of our flying 😡”

NJS Pilots:

“Mainline and Network are going to get given all our flying 😵”

Network Pilots:

“Let’s get as much of Mainline and NJSs flying as we can 😃”

Sunstate/Eastern Pilots:

“This is our chance to get a jet and take all of NJS and Networks flying 😃”
ALLIANCE pilots, "Hold my beer". :O

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 07:05


Originally Posted by logansi (Post 11156592)
I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

Don’t forget there’s still a substantial number of 738s going to be around, in 2024 when the first Airbuses arrive there’ll be 8 738s that will be 16 years old and about 34 that will only be 10-12 years old. The latter will still fly til 2034. They’re cheap to run and you’ve got crews trained up on them, so why wouldn’t you keep operating them til the end of their life.

lederhosen 16th Dec 2021 08:24

There must be a lot of junior pilots with airbus experience as well as other synergies. I converted from Boeing to Airbus fairly late on in my career and it was a very positive experience, much easier than the other way around I am told. From a passenger standpoint the cabin is much better. There will obviously be a transition period. But at some point the benefits of a single fleet will outweigh any savings from operating older aircraft. There are also substantial fuel savings to be had, so the cost of aircraft ownership is only one aspect of the total cost.

krismiler 16th Dec 2021 09:46

Aircraft purchases usually come with a certain number of free type ratings per airframe, and no doubt simulators will be needed as well. Pilots could be seconded to Jetstar to get some time on type in advance.

Overall it seems like a good fleet mix and very adaptable with every domestic city pair available including those that normally need widebodies. Thinner international routes could also be opened up as well.

Capt Fathom 16th Dec 2021 10:27

I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?

das Uber Soldat 16th Dec 2021 10:57


Originally Posted by Capt Fathom (Post 11156712)
I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?

Eh? Cockpit is miles bigger and the airframe itself is wider. Seat pitch is a bit less than Qantas but you paid 12 dollars for your ticket so....

Capt Fathom 16th Dec 2021 11:05

Nothing to do with price. It was a cabin comparison! Don’t be so touchy ‘bout your precious Jetstar!

krismiler 16th Dec 2021 13:24

A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

morno 16th Dec 2021 13:26


Originally Posted by krismiler (Post 11156822)
A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

You can actually even option an extra jumpseat behind the captain. It’s slightly more comfortable than the main one between the 2 seats at the back.

Ollie Onion 16th Dec 2021 19:19

No comparison, the A320 is way more comfortable. Just compare checking on the 737 Jumpseat compared to the A320, I know which one I preferred.

SHVC 16th Dec 2021 19:38

320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

theheadmaster 16th Dec 2021 20:04


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156975)
320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

You do realise Qantas mainline have been flying Airbus A330s since around 2002, and before that flew the ex-Australian Airlines A300? Boeing to Airbus and vice-versa is not a new thing at all for mainline.

SHVC 16th Dec 2021 20:28

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

Bleve 16th Dec 2021 21:05


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156975)
Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Keg should be able to confirm, but I believe Qantas operate their A330s using off the shelf Airbus procedures.

Chris2303 16th Dec 2021 21:34


Originally Posted by ANCDU (Post 11156532)
You’ve would have had to been pretty naïve not to see this coming,

Considering it was signalled at least 12 months ago.............


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:46.


Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.