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-   -   Project Winton- Airbus (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/644222-project-winton-airbus.html)

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 02:24


Originally Posted by EPIRB (Post 11156574)
Unfortunately the short haul award is only applicable to the Boeing 737 and the company apparently wouldn't change Boeing 737 to Narrow Body aircraft.

Not necessarily SH award. It may be conditions close to short haul though.

I envisage it’ll be similar to the LH negotiations over the 787 and then the 350.

They’ll want the 320/21 on conditions similar to the SH award but with efficiencies to suit longer sectors.

They preferably want to avoid an industrial dispute and just have pilots sign off on an agreement. But willing to have the option of outsourcing, just like the 787 and 350, in the background if discussions aren’t to their liking.

logansi 16th Dec 2021 03:28

I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

ChrisJ800 16th Dec 2021 04:34

Boeing need to lift their game. Virgin are going for the Max so its a good point of differentiation!

Torukmacto 16th Dec 2021 04:57

Can you ccq from 320 to 220 ? They are different manufactures ? No cost savings running a fleet of 321’s and 220’s .

Alt Flieger 16th Dec 2021 05:26

Shows how badly Boeing dropped the ball with the Max.and not replacing the B737 earlier.
Lot of rusted on Boeing drivers at QF.
But there has been a lot of exchange of Pilots between Jetstar and Mainline over the years and many coming back to the B737-800 will tell you that
the A320 /A321 is a superior product.
So no suprise really.


Icarus2001 16th Dec 2021 06:51


Mainline Pilots:

“NJS and Network are going to get given even more of our flying 😡”

NJS Pilots:

“Mainline and Network are going to get given all our flying 😵”

Network Pilots:

“Let’s get as much of Mainline and NJSs flying as we can 😃”

Sunstate/Eastern Pilots:

“This is our chance to get a jet and take all of NJS and Networks flying 😃”
ALLIANCE pilots, "Hold my beer". :O

dr dre 16th Dec 2021 07:05


Originally Posted by logansi (Post 11156592)
I'm actually interested in how the A220-300 will play into negotiations.

There is a possibility here that they could have very few or no A320s just 220s and 321s. If they wanted to be nasty try they could shift half the current mainline flying to NJS by giving them 40 220s for East Coast flying while mainline has only 50 or so single isle aircraft, all A321neos.

Don’t forget there’s still a substantial number of 738s going to be around, in 2024 when the first Airbuses arrive there’ll be 8 738s that will be 16 years old and about 34 that will only be 10-12 years old. The latter will still fly til 2034. They’re cheap to run and you’ve got crews trained up on them, so why wouldn’t you keep operating them til the end of their life.

lederhosen 16th Dec 2021 08:24

There must be a lot of junior pilots with airbus experience as well as other synergies. I converted from Boeing to Airbus fairly late on in my career and it was a very positive experience, much easier than the other way around I am told. From a passenger standpoint the cabin is much better. There will obviously be a transition period. But at some point the benefits of a single fleet will outweigh any savings from operating older aircraft. There are also substantial fuel savings to be had, so the cost of aircraft ownership is only one aspect of the total cost.

krismiler 16th Dec 2021 09:46

Aircraft purchases usually come with a certain number of free type ratings per airframe, and no doubt simulators will be needed as well. Pilots could be seconded to Jetstar to get some time on type in advance.

Overall it seems like a good fleet mix and very adaptable with every domestic city pair available including those that normally need widebodies. Thinner international routes could also be opened up as well.

Capt Fathom 16th Dec 2021 10:27

I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?

das Uber Soldat 16th Dec 2021 10:57


Originally Posted by Capt Fathom (Post 11156712)
I’ve always found the A320’s a little claustrophobic in comparison to the 737. Maybe that was just the Jetstar configuration?

Eh? Cockpit is miles bigger and the airframe itself is wider. Seat pitch is a bit less than Qantas but you paid 12 dollars for your ticket so....

Capt Fathom 16th Dec 2021 11:05

Nothing to do with price. It was a cabin comparison! Don’t be so touchy ‘bout your precious Jetstar!

krismiler 16th Dec 2021 13:24

A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

morno 16th Dec 2021 13:26


Originally Posted by krismiler (Post 11156822)
A320 cabin is definitely wider, especially at the back. I remember one flight in the rear row of seats on a B737 which were all occupied, we couldn't all sit back at the same time as our shoulders overlapped.

The flightdeck is noticeably bigger as well, the jump seat can slide behind the F/O and there is standing room behind the Captain. No stringing up a deckchair in the doorway.

Baggage containers instead of hand loading should speeding upon the turn around times.

You can actually even option an extra jumpseat behind the captain. It’s slightly more comfortable than the main one between the 2 seats at the back.

Ollie Onion 16th Dec 2021 19:19

No comparison, the A320 is way more comfortable. Just compare checking on the 737 Jumpseat compared to the A320, I know which one I preferred.

SHVC 16th Dec 2021 19:38

320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

theheadmaster 16th Dec 2021 20:04


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156975)
320 is better in every way regarding cabin and flight deck. It’s a true multi crew aircraft. it will be interesting seeing how the 10+ yr 73 skippers adjust to Airbus philosophy. Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Seems Airbus will be very busy moving forward KLM have ordered over 100 320 and 4 350s.

You do realise Qantas mainline have been flying Airbus A330s since around 2002, and before that flew the ex-Australian Airlines A300? Boeing to Airbus and vice-versa is not a new thing at all for mainline.

SHVC 16th Dec 2021 20:28

That was not my point. My point is old, set in their way 73 drivers will find it hard to adjust. Not all 73 skips have flown an Airbus.

Bleve 16th Dec 2021 21:05


Originally Posted by SHVC (Post 11156975)
Or QF will try and Boeingise it and change everything to re-invent the wheel.

Keg should be able to confirm, but I believe Qantas operate their A330s using off the shelf Airbus procedures.

Chris2303 16th Dec 2021 21:34


Originally Posted by ANCDU (Post 11156532)
You’ve would have had to been pretty naïve not to see this coming,

Considering it was signalled at least 12 months ago.............


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