Not permitted by those pesky IR laws...

Pardon my ignorance but how are IR laws stopping QLink bringing in some of their fresh new cadets while Jetstar 787 pilots are stood down?

If they were already on the QF group books then no problems

Each entity is treated seperately. No reason at all one can't hire while another has crew on stand down.

What is more likely to happen is what just happened with the 717 crew. Internal EOI posted for 717 F/O positions on 18 month contract. Needed to have a 717 type rating so it looks like they were actively trying to use their own staff first. There's also the benefit of reduced training needed to get them online.

Funny how for Jobkeeper eligibility it’s all entities are considered together but for other things it’s each entity is treated separately.

QF just closed 2 NJS bases didn’t they? That must be around 30% of their pilots. I’d expect some wouldn’t relocate (maybe 10-15%) so I assume that’s why that ad has appeared.

If they don’t get the required numbers it’s going to be hard watching them recruit externally rather then train guys that already work for the group who are looking at lengthy standown.

My bad, by cadets I meant Qantas Group Pilot Academy graduates who apparently are supposed to get a leg up for new jobs or something like that.

Im sure everyone would like it to be a tale but theres plenty of recent history to do with IR issues that nobody saw coming,just saying....

The flying network won’t be the same size post COVID. That’s why the 190 pilots were identified as a long term surplus.
whilst I’m sure it is possibly good news if your a Long Haul CPT like keg(and a stood up one), for most SO and FO or a long term stood down CPT its not rosy at all.
The majority of pilots are stood down. It’s all very inaccurate, based on what if’s and with no certain date it doesn’t comfort the bank manager, landlord or wife-husband nor put food on the table. Maybe getting a month or two of work simply doesn’t cut it. Living a life in ISO as an SO does not either. Getting told from some 20 year old in HR who has no ISO requirements on F11 even less so. A maybe promotion sometime in the future whilst your unpaid is imagination only.
I’ve heard some good news that many are starting to get other jobs in banking and in big and small business.
Starting Money sounds good with huge potential in the future, and work life balance far superior to Qantas. Every night at home with the kids. Some work from home days and every Christmas and Easter off. More importantly they feel valued and welcomed and are told of opportunities for growth and improved pay. Can always move to other Companies where pay isn’t less. So different from Qantas who don’t appreciate their staff, hate their pilots and are constantly trying to undermine their growth and pay conditions or threaten their jobs to make them take LWOP out of fear.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rk-London.html

Unless you want a lifetime of abuse, threats and job insecurity you would be an idiot to choose a job as an airline pilot. Shows how sh$& the environment is that the best it can get is people taking wild guesses on hypothetical promotions only because people got forced to take redundancies from a sinking ship.
Start a business. Study something other than flying. Get a plan B. Get a long term alternate.

The only thing I miss about flying for Qantas is the fortnightly pay. It really was good money.

I thought I would miss the flying which on reflection I did at the start. But as the months have passed and having found secure full time employment in another industry I no longer miss it. The jet lag, the back of the clock sectors, the sims, EPs, security, the hotels etc etc.

After so many ups and downs in aviation over the last 25 years I really have had enough. Alan and his team will make hay while the sun shines and that means even if flying returns there will be more insecurity and more racing to the bottom. Enough is enough. For those in LH stood down with no clear path my advice is move on, find another job and leave Qf behind. If they call in the future then great but move forward expecting them to not call. It’s really the only way to handle this.

I agree with this. Yeah the money was good but the last 8 months or so of stand down has shown me that there’s more to life than flying.

I think for many this has caused a reassessment of what is important in life. Is the cash and love of flying enough to offset the jet lag, time away from family etc?

Im sure some industrial types over at QF (and probably other airlines) will be assuming that pilots will now be scared of losing their jobs for good and this will make them more tame industrially.

I believe the opposite is probably true: this period has demonstrated that if the worst happens and the flying job goes away, we’ll still survive, and there may in fact be benefits to a career outside of flying.

Well said! The mental health of myself and many of my colleagues is infinitely better than it was several months ago. I didn’t notice how destructive the industry could be to its staff until I had time to step back for a while. It’s like the frog in boiling water theory, if it temperature up on you over 20 or 30 years, it just seems normal. It isn’t!

Edit** As far as pilots being industrially softened up by COVID...they’re not. Almost everyone I speak to is busting for a fight, well rested and refreshed, we are in a better position to stop the rot than we’ve ever been. And there are plenty of jobs out there that can use our unique skill set.

Yeah, nah.

I don’t miss being tired, but I miss my Qantas “family”. I used to enjoy catching up with the crew.

Oh, and the money - I miss that too...

Now I have to buy my maple syrup in Australia like some sort of animal :p

I agree. What I keep hearing from crew who are on long term unpaid stand down from Qantas. Many of those have given up on Qantas and wisely moved on and thrown themselves into something new. Found a new challenge where they are appreciated. Some are even studying interesting areas like medicine, law or finance or getting a trade or starting a business. I even heard one SO who’s started a business and was on the evening radio on 2GB interviewed about his new venture.
The wife or partner is happier with them home. The kids are happier too. They will have Christmas and Easter at home. Birthdays and special events. Can tell friends and mates with confidence they can come to that event or wedding.
The pay used to be good but it is constantly getting worse. No one will be getting the hours they used to.
Nothing but RINs, demotions and other entities taking flying to look forward to. Constantly being attacked. Not worth wasting effort and energy on sinking ships. Majority of pilots are capable and trustworthy people.
Other businesses see the value and are appreciative of the skills and experience. Not being despised and ridiculed in the media has a value. Losing sleep flying all night, jetlag,lingering fatigue and instability and days or weeks away from family and friends has a price.
Covid Is a great opportunity to move on and secure a better and more stable future. No stand downs, RINs, demotions, pay cuts, longer hours, worse rosters, days away, sims put on days off! EBAs getting worse and worse.
Divert the company emails to another folder. Tune out of the webinars. Focus on what serves you and will help you and your family’s future. It’s not flying. If your stood down then let it go mentally. This came from a Qantas appointed psychologist. Maybe If it comes back then consider options then. May be many years away.
Get into a position that when Alan threatens pilots again or belittles them in the media that you don’t need to care. It might take some time but I know lots of people slowly building a way they can walk away from flying or only come back at half rosters at most.
For the SOs and FOs I think this is really important. Something like Covid will happen again or worse and you need to be prepared.
Good saying that someone is only sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Time to plant trees away from flying.

Said the short haul guy looking at the potential movement upwards if enough believe it :)

Aviation conditions your mindset. It’s hard to walk away. I’d rather be a frog and well and truly cooked before I retire, than never having had the experience.

Frogs for life.

Flying is a social club. From the local flying school to a company like QF, it’s no different. It’s good to have a laugh both on and off the aircraft. Gee, I have learnt a lot from others.
We all love flying. It’s not work. If I thought of it as work I never would have made first solo.
The issue is when passing management like to stick their nose in our business. They’re not Qantas, you are!
Good luck to all those moving on. It was an absolute pleasure!

Work colleagues are great and it is nice to have a beer. That doesn’t exist in flying alone.
But the majority of pilots are stood down without pay and won’t have either work, nor pay for years.
Pleased that long serving Captains with great careers got paid out a large tax reduced package. Some great people have left sadly. But they left with money and a good career.
But Reminiscing over a job that no longer exists or won’t for years, won’t pay the bills or feed the family for those stood down. Most SO and FO don’t have this luxury.
For those not wanting to starve or lose their houses it is alternate planning time.

Some wise words in these last few posts. I have nothing to do with the QF group but have just seen first hand what airline management think of the pilot body in my airline, handing us a rather large and permanent salary cut.
It’s hard to see much of a future left in aviation when our T&Cs are constantly under attack.

There'll probably be a reduction in pay in the future but c'mon it's coming from a very high starting point. Up until now the pay has constantly been increasing, when I started most LH Captains were earning salaries starting with 3, by 2019 it seems most had a 4 at the start. I doubt whether any pilot in mainline had their pay cut over the last decade (up until this year of course but that wasn't as a result of a new contract). In fact I heard stories of RIN'd 767 FOs who got a pay rise to go to 380 SO.

On the flipside to most comments here from what I've heard from those now working in other industries most have received quite a rude awakening into what life outside of mainline is really like, and will be very grateful of the mainline job and life once they return.

Will there be temptations of other industries like law, finance, business etc where more pay can be made eventually? Yes, and I believe some will take up that offer and give flying away. But I reckon the vast majority will eventually return to flying. 95%+. It'll take time in other industries to get to the kind of money the mainline pilot was previously on, and by that stage they'll have had the opportunity to to return to work. Yes, you'll miss some holidays and birthdays, but overall you'll have more time off at home. Not many M-F professionals can pick up their kids from school. You'll definitely be able to have more choice in place of living, rather than a commute to the CBD 5 times per week. Won't get attacked in the media? Also won't be made redundant at a moment's notice like a lot of corporate staff are.

Plus as much as everyone says they don't like it, they just can't seem to get away from "the life"

Why? The company agreed in March that the rate per hour that we fly is appropriate- heck, they were the ones that set the rate, allowed virtually no room for negotiation, and insisted we needed to sign off on it quickly. The only way there should be a ‘pay reduction’ is if we physically fly less hours.

42 Captains got a 20-25% pay cut in 2015 when they were demoted with the retirement of the 767.



In 2019 an A330 Captain working a 180 divisor every BP earns about $352K. Depending on the route structure flown that was 850+ hours. There wouldn’t have been an A330 line Captain with a pay starting with a 4 unless they’d worked multiple BLs and were assigned well over +5 on more than one of them.

Oh FFS what a load of rubbish - domestic crews will be all back on very shortly, and with positive signs for international they may well be trickling back starting early to mid next year.

The doom and bloody gloom is so tiring...

The doom and gloom merchants have had no better opportunity to leave the industry and do something else but guaranteed, most of them will be back in a seat within a few years complaining to all and sundry how bad the job is.

“On the flipside to most comments here from what I've heard from those now working in other industries most have received quite a rude awakening”

I also think this is true of some ppl.
Aviation is a very specific skill set and even if there are transferable skills, there will be younger and better trained candidates out there.

Ideally, train in a different field, and, while maintaining the ability to make decisions based on imperfect information (which we do very well) ditch the pilot wank and superiority complex and go with some humility. It WILL serve you well.

The money that pilots earn isn’t as good as you may think. Sure it’s good compared to GA but $350k for a highly skilled professional at the top of their field isn’t a huge amount of money. Captains earning that would be earning less than their contemporaries in law, medicine and management. Most tradies operating their own business earn over $200k

That is true. But Look at a pilot who’s on stand down for 2 or 3 years or longer or even one month on six off like 330.That’s close enough to zero salary for those years.No one is going back to high hours in Long Haul even if they do go back.That has a huge knock on effect on super and compounded loss of pay.if you work in another industry or skill you can change companies.Can’t do that as a pilot easily or at all.
My point is that this industry is too unreliable.Need a plan B.Ask people at Virgin, tiger or Ansett who lost jobs for long periods of time. I’m sure they would say have a backup plan.Not saying you can’t return to flying.Just don’t be reliant on it.

ATO stats for income for various occupations.

Average and median taxable income, salary or wages, and total income, by occupation

It does show the average for all pilots in the industry, but at the median salary level for air transport professionals (ie pilots) they are the highest earning profession on the list that does not require a minimum of a Bachelor's degree. It's really only Surgeons, Anesthetists, Financial Dealers, Psychiatrists, Mining Engineers and Engineering Managers that out earn pilots. The median pilot out earns the median GP, School Principal or Dentist.

For the salaries achievable for FO level in mainline (which was quite junior for the last few years of recruitment) it's really only medical professionals with postgrad qualifications who do better.

For the top salary levels in other professions like In law you'd have to be at a State Supreme Court or Appeal Court Judge level to make significantly more than a 380 Captain.

For the time spent at work and nature of the job I reckon it can't be beaten when it comes to work/pay balance.

Great posts all above but the simple fact is everyone’s situation is different and at the end of the day their own personal situations will dictate their decisions.
However, from a personal point of view over the course of not working since February we have learnt to restructure and amend our expectations and now require much less of a budget than what we had grown use to and to return and maintain min guarantee would be a fantastic work-life balance and to reject extra flying for days off will be a pleasure. :ok:

I live constantly around lawyers and doctors by family connections and whilst their grass is greener in terms of salaries their efforts to get there should not be sold short, and remember not all get there, it’s a hard road. I always would like to be more remunerated but for what I have gone through compared to my wife,

I wouldn’t trade It for all the vaccines on this planet.

Today is the last day in QF for myself and another couple of hundred of my pilot colleagues. I will be thinking of all of them at 4:59 this afternoon, when many careers end in a way that none of us would have ever expected. Farewell. Adieu. Sayonara. Goodbye.

Cheers Shark Patrol, sorry it ended this way. I hope you enjoyed the stint you had, all the best to you and your fellow colleagues with retirement.

LOL, Judges are nowhere near the top of the income tree in law, a senior partner wouldn't get out of bed for A380 captain pay. Yeah but how long does it take to become a senior partner I hear you say? Nowhere near as long as a QF A380 Skipper

It is a stupid argument.
individuals who make senior partner have little chance of becoming an A380 captain and individuals who make A380 captains have little chance of becoming a decent lawyer let alone senior partner.
They are completely different skill sets and different personalities.
I won’t even introduce the discussion about lifestyles.

For many of these, medical doctors have at least 6 years of uni plus >10 years of further on the job training before they can dream of A380 Cpt money. A lot of this time would include work weeks in excess of 60h per week, with days at a time of being on call overnight.
For lawyers, the time frame as above, but miserly pay and exceedingly long hours in their early years, not unlike pilots.

Lifestyle considerations aside, $300K+ is very very well paid in comparison to the average punter. Other jobs without tertiary education pulling this sort of money might be people doing FIFO to Africa or offshore oil rigs (generally dangerous)... That's not to discount the many years of training and specialisation one could regard being PIC of a heavy jet signifies. Unfortunately these days that esteem isn't shared by all in the general public.

A380 Captains are stood down for three plus years on $0 pay.
They got stood down at the start of 2020 and won’t come back till late 2023-2024.Most likely the A380 will not come back. Plus The pay and conditions for the A380 dies when the aircraft goes. It’s only high if you do the overtime and it won’t be doing that kind of flying anymore.The A350 pay isn’t within $100k for the same hours worked.Anyway The good old days of high T and C are gone and are only getting worse. Very poor comparison.
Any lawyer, doctor etc can work for a number of companies. Last I checked they are not stood down unpaid? How many of those jobs get stood down for three years?
Good Barristers earn way more than any Captain. As do Doctors and surgeons. But at least they have more job certainty and portability.
Flying is a dying and uncertain career. What options do Captains have that are stood down? None in aviation.
Good luck to you if you want to rely on that alone. The ones stood down are not getting paid for years so all the best. The Stories are touching but they don’t pay things called bills and mortgages.

Yeah, but you have to actually want to be a lawyer... :hmm:

Many other professions also allow you to continue working past 65 and don’t mind if your health isn’t so great. Due to other country’s restrictions, a 65 year old pilot is mostly limited to domestic, assuming he can still hold a medical, or a few specialist roles such as sim instruction or recruitment.

A top barrister can still be pulling in big money when he’s 70 and has arthritis and failing eyesight.

a glance at qrewroom suggests theres a couple

Vaccine is right around the corner, those guys wont be stood down forever. The world has learnt protocol and procedure from this virus. Next around they wont muck about closing borders

Along with quite a few self appointed medical and scientific “experts” as well, given the site has now deteriorated to full on Covid hoax, anti-vaxxer, election and other ludicrous conspiracies. The Alex Jones Show makes more sense at times.

I can’t think of anything more miserable than working a high stress job at that age with failing health, when you should be enjoying your golden years, no matter how much $$ they pay you.

In some ways a forced retirement age is a good thing.

VR and ER
 

Around 200 Pilots exit Q on VR and ER with an average of 15,000 hrs each, that's around 3,000,000 hrs of flying experience out the door in one fell swoop!
Neither the Wee Irish Leprechaun nor the Board have even acknowledged nor do I think they understand the implications of this loss (and neither do I think they care anyway!!)
I just hope it doesn't come back to bite them on the arse in the future.

They don’t care. If they could pay a 200hr cadet 50K a year to sit in the LHS of an A380 (well....787/350 going forward) they would.

And AJ celebrating Qantas’ 100 years, most of the VR/ER have been there for a third of that 100 years!
Now that is a contribution to Qantas!