It’s not like any were denied the opportunity (talking mostly about SOs here) to take an upgrade, their seniority would have gotten them onto the 737 in any base or a lot to LH FO as well. They chose to be where they are.

and...?

There are more than a few FOs on the A380 who were on the 737 for years, before landing a gig on the A380 in the last 2 years.

It’s just a sh!tty situation all round.

It’s not relevant where they could have gone - seniority is still the rule of the land.

Stand down won’t go on for years, won’t be allowed to. Have a chat with some IR lawyers and you’ll understand why. Greater things at play than Joyce and Co. The advice I’ve heard - Follow your enterprise agreement, all that is necessary is contained within it.

Yeah, it is a ****ty situation all round. But right place right time applies.

The 737 won’t be an option (can’t RIN between awards and company won’t train more than necessary onto 737) so the only options in mainline for stood down 380 and 747 pilots are 330 and 787. And I believe they only get a shot once existing pilots have been retrained back to their roles and with concessions. By the time that happens it will be a couple of years into the future, and I’d assume the market would’ve picked up substantially if both 330 and 787 are back flying at max capacity. Maybe enough to bring a few 380s back.

Another option which may occur in 12-18 months is another VR. I can foresee more pilots requesting it in that time frame, perhaps the first one was too soon after the initial shock of stand downs, maybe more will be comfortable putting their hand up for it after they’ve established themselves in a new career.

So once those things happen, plus the existing 250 to go soon under VR/ER there’ll be a more manageable situation in 2022/23.

Not necessarily, ask Kendall CRJ pilots about how seniority works. Although the situations would be different it shows courts don’t always follow strict seniority in IR law.

We know it’s 3yrs now so why haven’t the IR lawyers come in for the kill?

You don't have to go that far back. Virgin 777 and A330 pilots had seniority and the only thing that gets them is the chance to be rehired in 2 years if Virgin are recruiting. Seniority works when the situation is normal. It is a long way from being that now and for a few years to come.

A (very...) quick straw poll reveals a few would prefer CR over years of stand down.

Won’t happen though, CR is expensive - stand down is cheap.

Virgin have different contracts. Different clauses. Same as Kendal.

747 crew get to RIN using seniority. They don’t want to retrain crew. If they could of made them redundant on type they would have.
Pilots don’t understand their own agreement. Embarrassing lack of knowledge.

I would rather a stand down or a big CR payout than fly a maggot.

Oh boo hoo

I’d fly a prickly pineapple at the moment given half a chance!

Considering the waves of unemployed pilots across the world including Aust and NZ, that comment is at best embarrassing. Doubly so when you consider many 737 pilots were willing to keep their pay packets lower by potentially agreeing to let some LH pilots transfer across hauls.

Of course, the maggot has also got a habit of highlighting deficiencies in otherwise ‘sh*t hot pilots’.

:D:D:D

Made me laugh, thanks!

That’s gold !!! 😂

indeed. No doubt there are many ex VA and TT drivers who would happily take your stood down position, let alone fly the 737.


Unfortunately the sense of entitlement and demands of a very small number of senior captains has ruined that sentiment for the rest of the top guys and girls in LH. A real shame those individuals who’ve had the dream run still can’t see that a solution to help everyone was the best way forward. Now everyone will miss out.

Seriously... :rolleyes:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e5f762dd32.gif

Bravo. First prize for being a flog award goes to you. Congratulations

^ says it all.

In all fairness he didnt say he wouldnt bid for it. Just not fly it.

Big dog Gazza

​​​​​​​This whole CV debacle has been going on since March 31 for QF - 7 MONTHS. But somehow we KNOW it will be 3yrs? Remember, if you’re a CEO - talk it down, and when it goes better than “planned” - wow, amazing bonuses all around for doing “such a great job”.

Some of us are very easily manipulated into shooting ourselves in the foot.

You certainly can RIN between LH and SH, just not compulsorily.

If there are positions available on the B737, whether these positions are real vacancies or manufactured ones, they will be available to RIN'd pilots, just as they were last time. In fact, last time this technique was used to fill an otherwise unpopular ADL base opening. Many junior Captains on the B767 accepted an B737 command rather than face an F/O demotion. Some hated it and left when they could. Some loved it and and are still there. You get that.

And don't think they won't inflate B737 numbers - they did that brazenly during the GFC. The low MGH on the B737 makes it an ideal place to "hide" excess pilots - almost as cheap as Stand Down.

Exactly. Too many here who are QF don’t seem to know much about the fantastic protections their EBA, signed during this pandemic, provides. Those that do, and still want to spread FUD, generally have a reason to do so...

The others (non QF) are just sniping from the sidelines hoping to rattle you. You have an amazing award with all the protections and provisions that many would kill for. Sit on your hands.

Exactly - the are always options.

When do you think there will be vacancies on the 737?

You need to read the EA (may be the integration award) with regard to minimum average divisor before they can increase the establishment on the 737. The MGH doesn't factor.

You can’t displace into SH during a RIN. There needs to be slots advertised to bid for.

There are no new 737 orders on the books. Apart from a handful of over 65s the vast majority of 737 pilots are well away from retirement age. There’s going to be no long haul positions to bid for for a long time. So roughly the same amount of 737 pilots will be needed in the mid term future as are needed today, and no big numbers are going to be leaving. So no large number of slots means almost no significant opportunity for LH pilots to go to SH.

Not now. There’s always a cost with training and administration to have extra pilots on the 737, away from their optimal 68ish hr divisor. Management have indicated they want no unnecessary spend so there’s no financial incentive to retrain more to SH to keep divisors low. There’s training triggers that have to be met too.

Qlink had foreign pilots up in QLD on skilled shortage visas flying through stand down while more senior pilots on the sustaining fleet were stood down on jobkeeper. The government was paying Australian pilots to sit at home while foreigners flew sectors for the national carrier.

Let that sink in if you think that this will be managed within the spirit and the intent of your EAs. You can’t look through a “pre-COVID” filter for any of this.

The stereotypical LH archetype persists yet again:rolleyes:

Keep up the false bravado mate. You’re just making my decision easier when QF comes knocking to ask if I’m happy to “vary” (ie lower) the SH EA to accommodate more of my LH “Family”.

Yeah na, any amendments to SH EA would be to facilitate existing crew getting back into the plane, not retrain LH pilots. Both LH and SH EA amendment talks have gone pretty quiet anyway.

It doesn't actually. The same was often said of the 767 when there were only 2 aircraft; that and the 744.
Very few longhaul pilots would hold the same opinion as Gazza as most would have flown either the 767, the 737 or both. Some older longhaul pilots may prefer CR to the 737 - with the obvious financial benefits of CR - but the remaining 99% would grab a 737 slot in a heartbeat if stand-down or 737 were the only options in view for the next 3 years.

Those SA crew are treated exactly like everyone else on the EBA. They get their stand down on a rotating basis, just like everyone else on the 400. Line crew are stood down on a rotating basis according to seniority. The only exception at the moment is the C&T are avoiding stand down mostly to train the Q300 crew to the Q400.

However, as a result of their visa the SA crew can't claim JobKeeper or seek alternative employment. So they burn their leave mostly to keep some money coming in. Those leave balances aren’t infinite and now no one can go into a negative leave balance.

Think about the implications of that for a minute when there is no concrete end date to stand downs.

Do you hear them complaining? Just about all of them (There’s always someone who isn’t happy, isn’t there SDN?) are extremely grateful to be doing what they’re doing.

The grounding of the classic fleet and subsequent stand down was a commercial decision. QLink don’t choose which fleet flies where, commercial do. They decided the 400 was a better machine to use overall. Thats all there was to it.

Once the company came out that the 300 was done in QLD, they moved reasonably quickly to get the training organised. Given the number of crew to be trained and all of the border restrictions, I don’t think they’ve done that bad a job at that part of it.

By and large, the 400 crew all feel for the classic crew who got stood down. It wasn’t necessarily fair or even, but that wasn’t the goal when this kicked off.

Most are hopefully thankful that their stand down wasn’t potentially 3 years or more like many of their mates over at the mothership.

this is very different

1) Australia is the only country in the world which is currently preventing its citizens from leaving their home country. Anyone who want to leave Australia must obtain a ABF exemption.

The outbound travel restriction must be removed and made like the U.K./Singapore to strongly discourage travel to destinations with high covid rates. Singapore also state they will not pay for covid treatment if people choose to travel.

2) inbound caps on arrival passengers.

There is around 1 million Australians living outside Australia which are unable to return due to inbound caps which can be as little as 30 on a flight. Must move to a model where passengers are tested prior to travel and must have a negative result 72 hrs before travel and then to be placed in hotel quarantine until the result of a test taken on arrival is known. If that test is negative, quarantine at home for 14 days with a secondary test performed on day 10.

3) remove double quarantine requirements. At the moment a passenger arriving in SYD needs to do 14 days hotel quarantine in SYD, snd then do another 14 days in another state.

Have a test on arrival, wait for the result, if negative can transit do destination to do quarantine.

The outbound restriction exists to justify the inbound restriction.

We do not want 20 million rich Asians suddenly deciding that Australia is the lifeboat from which to watch the disaster that is Covid in Asia.


........and they will bring Covid19 with them, as will returning Australian bogans if we were stupid enough to let them holiday in Bali.

The disaster Covid is in Asia?

Singapore opening and less restrictions, many travel bubbles starting. It is a slow build but it is opening.

Thailand doing pretty well and accepting long term visitors. Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia all seem to be doing very well. China almost seems normal, have a look at the travel any of your friends living there are doing.

Yes there are areas in Asia that are a worry however Asia is a big place. I do get your point however Australia is not the be all and end all.

Now back to the thread!

It is a shame QF couldn’t have done more repatriation flights, as I stated on another thread if these flights are managed right then they will not be terrible loss makers. The diff is QF isn’t a gov airline so it took this long for the gov to step in. The QF repatriation flights are not even scratching the issue. The minute caps are removed all QF Int should be flying flat out, cargo outbound, full or Covid full with spacing inbound.

I certainly do care about QF, many mates affected. However when you see the different strategies different airlines take you do have to wonder. Many forget that there was hundreds of tonnes of cargo being moved during Covid and this kept many an airframe and crew flying.

I totally understand, the issue I’m trying to point out is that what was industrially unpalatable for the company 12 months ago is not now.

new rules apply

Where are these new rules written? Just so I can reference them for any future dealings.

The way your post was written makes it sound like they are getting special treatment or should stand aside so that locals can be stood up.

Not only is that an unfair suggestion to make, it would be going against the EBA.

For the record I’m not one of them but there’s some bloody good, humble pilots there who are (again for the most part) extremely grateful for the opportunity that was offered to them.

Now isn’t the time to play the man/woman because most of us here know someone who has some pretty big decisions ahead.

You're not factoring in that the 747 RIN has to happen sooner or later, and I would be willing to lay a bet that there will be manufactured slots on the 737 magically appearing at the same time. You mention training costs - training costs will be incurred regardless.

That might just happen to be the same time that all current 737 pilots are back flying. It won't matter whether the divisor is 73/month as per the IA, the Company only needs to "forecast" such a divisor to meet the requirements of the IA. According to them. That's what they did during the GFC and they got away with it.

QF have said multiple times that there won’t be any vacancies on the 737. The RIN will only involve the 787/330.

if there were vacancies, they wound be filled by the oldest, most senior 380 crew....which wouldn’t help the RIN at all.