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My pilot hat has been off for a while now mate!
good riddance to that white thing! |
We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat. |
We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat. What would you do to reduce pilot costs to 0 while there is no flying? |
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 10805289)
Bizarre question because if you are stood down there is nothing you can do as you are not obligated to do anything and you are not being paid!! Unless of course you want to lead by example and resign that might help.
Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer? |
Originally Posted by dr dre
(Post 10805272)
There’s probably only 100-150 ish 747 pilots remaining anyway. From what I’m led to believe a lot of them were planning on retiring when the fleet retired so they were going anyway. Add to that the retirements that probably would’ve been occurring on other fleets in the next 12 months and that’ll sort out the remaining 747 numbers. Don’t forget the 150 pilots who won’t be recruited into mainline to replace those retiring 747 (and other) pilots over the next 12 months are sort of job losses in a way.
If there is a permanent reduction in any other fleets (not just shorter term stand downs) then there’ll be the need to talk of surpluses, but it doesn’t look like they’re proceeding on that path from anything which has been said at the moment. Yeah, I would have imagined any genuine surplus from the 747 would have been about that number (100-150, plus the same yet to be recruited to replace them, so roughly 300 in total). If 100 or so make the decision or some are offered some kind of VR, then provided we don’t have another catastrophe the numbers should be about right. The twin engined fleets look look like being the way forward for a while, so you’d have to say they’d want those numbers to be maintained for a ramp up over the next 12 months or so. That’d be a little bit of a relief to those on the bottom of the list anyway. |
Finally some reason on here.
I’d be highly surprised if QF make ANY pilot CR. Maybe some early retirements and VR. A small RIN from the 747. That’s about the extent of it. Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on. Remember there’s 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. They’ll be busy soon. |
Whilst there are some close to 65/retirement on the 744, many Captains are younger (and senior) than/to me and I'm not yet 60.
At some point the three or four (down)training courses that result from each RIN'ed pilot or paying for additional F/Os and maybe even Captains not required in rank, will be a greater cost than a VR. Compulsory redundancies off the bottom will not change that. "We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat." Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion! :) |
Originally Posted by angryrat
(Post 10805304)
So why do pilot costs have to be 0??
Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10805324)
Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion! :)
Love it :D |
You are still accruing sick leave / annual leave. Tino said he has that in his sights. Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer? It is a bit of a long shot, but maybe they're getting desperate and running out of options. |
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
(Post 10805307)
Finally some reason on here.
Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on. Remember there’s 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. They’ll be busy soon. Leaving Australia If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictionsunless you have an exemption. |
Let’s say pilots agreed to waive leave accrual whilst stood down...kicks the can down the road and saves 150 jobs just like that. Zero cost to the company whilst pilots do the lifting. Company win, pilots ‘do the right thing’. Sounds like continuation of EBA season.
lost leave should be repaid in 24months. Then it’s a non current liability. |
I love it!
Qantas never cease to surprise me. Even being stood down with no pay, sick leave etc they’re still looking for efficiencies! Classic! |
Originally Posted by crosscutter
(Post 10805356)
Let’s say pilots agreed to waive leave accrual whilst stood down...kicks the can down the road and saves 150 jobs just like that. Zero cost to the company whilst pilots do the lifting. Company win, pilots ‘do the right thing’.
Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow. |
All the more reason to get out there and find another income now. It’s a big reality check, but the days of LH gravy are going to pause for a bit.
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For those holding out hope of the international flood gates opening the Federal government has just said no more funding for international flights and both Qantas and Virgin have canceled all international passengers flights. (Sydney Morning Herald Sunday)
Winter is still coming and I don’t see Aus or NZ opening up international borders to go back to square one other than to each other and maybe the Pacific islands. Once the VA outcome is better understood and how long jobseeker will last I think the HR surgeons will know just how deep to cut. They won’t care if they go to hard as there will be plenty out there willing to take any spots on offer. Remember only a few months ago the talk was about the ULH conditions and they won that before the virus.Even Holdor had to let go in the end. |
Originally Posted by Iron Bar
(Post 10805421)
All the more reason to get out there and find another income now. It’s a big reality check, but the days of LH gravy are going to pause for a bit.
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Originally Posted by C441
(Post 10805378)
Try telling that to the Pilots who have little or no leave left now and are living off Jobkeeper. At least when Jobkeeper ceases (possibly/probably) at the end of September they'll have another few weeks of base pay income and can rely on having a further week of base pay for every 60 days they're stood-down after that. Some of those Pilots are conceivably looking at another 12 to 18 months of stand-down.
Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow. That would probably be better than 1/8th of their base income (1 week per 60 days) in the form of leave. As to what to do beyond that? Well that’ll have to be up to those stood down pilots themselves. Some are looking at temporarily re-skilling, looking at running their own small businesses, accepting positions of even unskilled labour if it’s available, modifying their lifestyle to suit. Yes it’s a reduction in pay and lifestyle from what they were used to in the past. I don’t really have any words of encouragement beyond that. Nowhere in any society is there a job on a 747 Captain’s wage that you can easily walk into with no prior skills or experience. If there is a word of encouragement, Aviation will return. The Boeing forecast was for 600,000 new pilots over the next 20 years, no doubt it’ll be decreased somewhat but it will still be a huge number. Developing economies are expanding and modernising, necessitating more aviation. The pandemic will subside, in a year or so (or even earlier if a second wave does not appear). Management will want an airline roughly as big as it was at the start of the year in 2022/23 I presume. It is good that pilots will be able to return back to their original positions on what are still good terms and conditions after that period of stand down, rather than being made redundant and having to find another long term job from scratch |
ex the SMH: Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights.....
Link/Reference here: https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp....html#comments
Extract here:
Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights By Patrick Hatch June 8, 2020 — 3.45pm Qantas and Virgin Australia have regrounded their remaining international passenger operations after government funding for the handful of overseas routes they were flying came to an end. The Morrison government says it is reviewing whether it needs to fund further flights to get Australians home from abroad as some overseas airlines resume flying here. Qantas and Virgin will again suspend their international passenger operations. Under the government program, Qantas was flying a twice weekly London-Perth-Melbourne return service and a weekly Los Angeles-Melbourne service, the last of which landed on Monday morning. Meanwhile Virgin - which is in voluntary administration seeking new owners - was flying a weekly Los Angeles-Brisbane service which ended Sunday. Both airlines confirmed on Monday they had no further international passenger services scheduled following the end of the government scheme, with aircraft to be grounded and crews working the flights stood down. A spokeswoman for the Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said the scheme with Qantas and Virgin was established to get Australians home as soon as possible amid the pandemic. "The government is reviewing the program noting there are now alternative commercial flight options available from London and Los Angeles," she said. The government also has previously arranged for ad hoc repatriation flights from Peru, Argentina, South Africa and India. Government to extend financial backing for domestic flights Qantas will continue to fly some international freight flights and said it was ready to fly any further repatriation flights for the government as needed. A Qantas spokesman said the airline was "proud to have helped thousands of Australians return home as well as taking foreign nationals back in the other direction". Over the weekend Mr McCormack announced the government will extend the underwriting over a minimum number of domestic and regional flights operated by Qantas, Virgin and Regional Express. The end of Qantas and Virgin’s Los Angeles flights leaves United Airlines’ daily Sydney-San Francisco service as the only direct passenger air link between Australia and the United States. Qatar Airways, Emirates and Etihad Airways have resumed regular flights connecting Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth to the UK, Europe, Middle East and Asia via their Gulf hubs, while Air New Zealand is operating some trans-Tasman flights and Cathay Pacific is flying to Hong Kong. There is a $165m plan for Qantas and Virgin to resume domestic routes. Under current border restrictions, only Australian citizens, residents and immediate family members can travel to Australia and must go into quarantine for 14 days on arrival. Australians have been banned from leaving the the country since March 25 unless they receive an exemption because their travel relates to work combating the COVID-19 pandemic, is in an essential industry, is for medical treatment or on compassionate or humanitarian grounds. Patrick Hatch Business reporter at The Age and Sydney Morning Herald. S28- BE |
Good news is Rex will get more money! Maybe they can go for a 12 jet operation?
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Originally Posted by ozbiggles
(Post 10805615)
Good news is Rex will get more money! Maybe they can go for a 12 jet operation?
Rgds S28 |
Originally Posted by Wingspar
(Post 10805373)
I love it!
Qantas never cease to surprise me. Even being stood down with no pay, sick leave etc they’re still looking for efficiencies! Classic! Take a look at the weekly town halls or whatever yuppie name they decide to call them,add up the yearly income of the 10 or 12 that sit around that table thanking each other for answering questions & continually insisting they are doing such a good job. Not once have they mentioned that the company doesnt need to make record profits after flying starts again,there are many businesses out there just happy to be open again & probably breaking even but as far as these hi flyers are concerned that is not near good enough. |
Singapore Airlines are increasing the number of destinations they operate to and will cover most Australian capital cities in the near future,as well as a skeleton international network. Changi airport is now allowing transits, so anyone stuck overseas can get home. The flights aren't profitable and are operated to maintain essential links between Singapore and the rest of the world, with cargo and mail being the main focus.
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Originally Posted by blubak
(Post 10806163)
Time for effeciencies to start right at the top.
Take a look at the weekly town halls or whatever yuppie name they decide to call them,add up the yearly income of the 10 or 12 that sit around that table thanking each other for answering questions & continually insisting they are doing such a good job. Not once have they mentioned that the company doesnt need to make record profits after flying starts again,there are many businesses out there just happy to be open again & probably breaking even but as far as these hi flyers are concerned that is not near good enough. Always wanting, wanting, wanting....! |
Hey............all you QF guys that hate you're management team so much; why not ask your VA and TT colleagues how it's working out for them! I'd wager that every one of them would love to trade places with you guys. Just a hunch but I reckon I may be right!
Nobody here has any justifiable reason to flame QF management when you take a step back, take a holistic look at their financial position and consider that they can still survive in this environment as has been stated, deep into the second half of FY2021. You all should be very grateful of the strong financial position the Company is in. It's not by good luck, it's by very clever and sound business management. Youre very fortunate that Il Deuce wasn't afforded the top gong, for there by the grace of god go you! As bitter pill as this may be for some of you to swallow, QF has one of the sharpest management teams in global aviation. It's hard to argue with facts. |
Hey I’m very happy with the QF group management and even AJ, I think they’re doing a great job. I’m not worried about redundancy long term stand down.
but you’re very correct half baked ppl get upset over the little things with management. |
Meanwhile in HK, the govt has essentially bought Cathay. $30B recapitalisation (loan and shareholding ). Certainly doesn’t happen in this part of the world...oh unless you’re Rex.
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I think if it came down to the wire the Feds would bail out Qantas but VA would have to be extinct and the rat up against the wall with no options. Qantas still have a few rounds in the chamber and with jobkeeper and the vast majority of government funding under the government scheme for flying compared to VA they have time, As has been mentioned before once the VA outcome is known so to will be the size of the cuts required. I don’t think you can go past AirNZ for a good litmus test of the future.
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Originally Posted by Half Baked
(Post 10806267)
Hey............all you QF guys that hate you're management team so much; why not ask your VA and TT colleagues how it's working out for them! I'd wager that every one of them would love to trade places with you guys. Just a hunch but I reckon I may be right!
Nobody here has any justifiable reason to flame QF management when you take a step back, take a holistic look at their financial position and consider that they can still survive in this environment as has been stated, deep into the second half of FY2021. You all should be very grateful of the strong financial position the Company is in. It's not by good luck, it's by very clever and sound business management. Youre very fortunately that Il Deuce wasn't afforded the top gong, for there by the grace of god go you! As bitter pill as this may be for some of you to swallow, QF has one of the sharpest management teams in global aviation. It's hard to argue with facts. Its been going on since Pontius was a pilate! Nevertheless I agree with you and my glass is now half full. |
I'm sorry Half Baked and others, Joyce is not the Messiah.
He's still a narcissistic bully and the ONLY reason that Qantas is in a strong financial position is that he has been contracting the airline to maximise share value, of which he has a massive number. Qantas has far fewer aircraft and flys a lot less routes than when he took over. It's only through his greed that has got the airline into a strong financial position to weather this crisis, lucky timing now happens to make him look good. |
This is one of the strangest virus outbreaks. It is very strange clinically. It is also very strange epidemiologically. There has been a lot to learn, and much remains unknown.
However, it increasingly appears we don't need 60-70% of the population to be infected / immune to develop herd immunity and for the pandemic to burn out. All over the world, we are not seeing a significant 2nd wave as social restrictions are relaxed. Several European countries (e.g. Austria) have now relaxed long enough and have sufficient public health capability that they should be seeing a 2nd wave if it was there. After several weeks of relaxing and colder weather, cases in Australia have not increased. Despite a lot of testing. This figure of 60-70% was a core assumption from early days. This figure underpinned much modelling which has influenced government policy. No country has close to 60% (NY city may have 25%, maybe). We don't know why we are seeing this striking disconnect between theory and reality. More recent and more sensitive antibody tests suggest it may relate to prior coronavirus infection (there is a whole family of coronaviruses , and they are a relatively common cause of the common cold). So while we have not been exposed to this coronavirus before, many of us have been exposed to other coronaviruses which may be "close enough" to confer immunity. https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ation-immunity So...., we may be significantly closer to the end than we think. The challenge may be matching supply to the new demand. I suspect there will be much less passenger traffic to/from China. |
Originally Posted by Going Boeing
(Post 10806331)
I'm sorry Half Baked and others, Joyce is not the Messiah.
He's still a narcissistic bully and the ONLY reason that Qantas is in a strong financial position is that he has been contracting the airline to maximise share value, of which he has a massive number. Qantas has far fewer aircraft and flys a lot less routes than when he took over. It's only through his greed that has got the airline into a strong financial position to weather this crisis, lucky timing now happens to make him look good. |
Originally Posted by Green.Dot
(Post 10806384)
I certainly was critical of QF for not buying a lot more newer generation aircraft in the past, and still would be if it wasn’t for COVID. Amazingly though it is this inaction that has put them in a better position. The timing of the 747 planned retirement couldn’t have been much better and just imagine the additional pain the company would be in if a large fleet of 350s were locked in pre COVID!
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Originally Posted by ACMS
(Post 10806392)
yeah it would be terrible having the Worlds most efficient fleet wouldn’t it.....almost make them as unlucky as CX....:rolleyes:
As an airline I’d much rather have a bunch of old, wholly owned aeroplanes right now than a highly leveraged or leased fuel efficient fleet burning no fuel but lots of cash. |
I have had a few friends head to QF in the last year. Would anyone have an idea; of the junior most 300 on seniority list, how many would be Long Haul / SO’s please?
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Originally Posted by dontgive2FACs
(Post 10806466)
I have had a few friends head to QF in the last year. Would anyone have an idea; of the junior most 300 on seniority list, how many would be Long Haul / SO’s please?
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Originally Posted by dontgive2FACs
(Post 10806466)
I have had a few friends head to QF in the last year. Would anyone have an idea; of the junior most 300 on seniority list, how many would be Long Haul / SO’s please?
I’d say at least 350 would be LH |
Originally Posted by dontgive2FACs
(Post 10806466)
I have had a few friends head to QF in the last year. Would anyone have an idea; of the junior most 300 on seniority list, how many would be Long Haul / SO’s please?
|
Originally Posted by dontgive2FACs
(Post 10806466)
I have had a few friends head to QF in the last year. Would anyone have an idea; of the junior most 300 on seniority list, how many would be Long Haul / SO’s please?
|
Webinar called for tomorrow. They only seem to have them when something has been announced. Any rumours from today’s meeting?
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One was always planned for tomorrow the email came out Monday
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