There seems to have been a blanket of silence since the departure of TLS.
Wonder if the deck is now being re-shuffled.

ZNA positioning Bne-Syd today.....

Is that a tech stop on the way to the USA?

Had to fly to Sydney first to ensure a full complement of management pilots could then operate the US sector :}

Didn’t Management say it would be a “ Longest Since “ decision process for the noble ferry cause ?
Surely all the seagulls have more pressing issues to attend to, than a States jolly followed by a forced quarantine induced Netflix binge upon return ?

Really who cares. Makes sense to use anyone that is still current rather than put someone through the sim etc just to do one sector. I say let management do it. They are on the payroll and probably current so good luck to them.

If it was offered to me I would turn it down. Couldn’t be bothered getting current and then the quarantine implications.

Valid point, except the 4-6 weeks pay (paid for Quarantine remember), equates to about 4-6 months pay for the minimum wage casual jobs outside of aviation that many of us currently find ourselves doing.

Derfred

Apologies to all for mentioning the war again (ie: what year increment does a CR return on)

Thanks for the tips from previous week & the well intentioned effort etc

My view was that EBA10 is a plain english document & that as nothing is mentioned re: CR & what year service level
you return on , that you would return on year 1 & then B scale SO if A350 is ordered. So unless QF have stated in writing something different
ie: that your years of service will be credited in a similar way to medical terminations , then nothing to discuss

Maybe there is some case law that gives credence to a different argument & that's all very interesting for QC's go to Federal courts , frock up & jump around. Not sure how that will assist guys who get re-employed after CR , who get told take it or leave it mate. Thought the efforts of AIPA should be focused on securing a better deal for CR & also LWOP , VR also instead of getting heads on the telly re: the pilotkeeper concept. Very surprising AIPA didn't try to lock QF in to better deals in the event of CR (ie: priority for "group jobs", years of service credited, no B scale) ; must have just slipped their mind

People have made their choices my view was that accrual of annual leave & lsl & yearly service increments over 3 years on stand down as an upside
wasn't worth the risk of CR & coming back years from now on year 1/B scale. If somebody rolls the dice & wins well all power to you , that's great
just not the kind of bet I would take

I know guys keep repeating "there is no surplus"(to me it just sounds like the virgin guys who kept repeating "we have 1/1.4 billion cash) , I see all the parked aircraft so I don't subscribe to that viewpoint & I note AJ talked about AC & ANZ reducing fleet size by 50% & 30% respectively on four corners. Still think a pretty good chance of CR unfortunately, QF have followed
the process outlined to the letter up to this point, firstly offer VR & lwop & early retirement, then you can move to CR

Does anyone think another VR would be offered prior to any CR ?

I don't think many would have predicted Australia segmenting as it has, I don't think any significant domestic this year (hope I am wrong)

You should probably read the EBA mate.

Qantas identified the numbers. Which is well publicised. The VR & ER package dealt with that longer term surplus.

The LWOP & bypass conditions deal with the short term surplus Qantas have now. As TLS put it - ‘variabilisation’ of the costs. 5% costs for 5% flying as we scale up.

If Qantas announce that more aircraft will be retired, another number of surplus positions will be announced. VR packages will be offered + LWOP and then if that fails to address the numbers, CR will commence.

There is presently no identified surplus and the previous one has been dealt with.

So stop trying to scare people. The rest of us are realists. If our number comes up and we end up on the retrenchment list. Such is life sometimes.

Well that might be your view that there is no surplus , I don't accept that & think surplus is around 500

& that is based on the fact that the WB are all parked & don't look like flying anytime soon. I don't accept it is
a "short term" surplus. & NB going at most 10% of normal

Not really interested what ex-employees did or didn't say . QF management have pretty much called everything wrong to date,
it's been guesswork , they(like everyone else) just don't know

No problems you expressing your view , but you are just speaking for yourself , so you should drop the royal "We"

Have read the eba many times , still reckon any CRs come back on year 1 or B scale. Not sure so many will be as nonchalant as
you & Ned Kelly if they come back on half current pay , all for the sake of continuing to accrue leave. But that is your right to have that perspective

Nice day

For what it’s worth Telfer, when you first raised the CR return issue, in my mind I agreed with you. When you are CRd you leave the company. So when you return it’s at the bottom in what ever capacity the company chooses. I haven’t read anything that changes my mind. So yes, if an A380 SO was CRd, they could face a significant salary drop.....In theory. I do agree with you.

However, for many reasons covered previously by many, this situation is highly improbable....seniority, cost of CR, other VR options to name a few. There are more likely outcomes to chew over than that.

They (GMC) have relayed as late as today that they will need the crews into the future and that is why no more ‘redundant’ positions have been identified to date.

Doesn't an existing SO who transfers to the 787 (and I assume 350 too) only keep their existing conditions for 18 months before going onto the new T&Cs?

Interesting concept Dr , would have thought when you go on to the 787 you would get year 1 787 rates, as the years are "on category" aren't they , not years
of service for rest of fleet. The 350 rates look pretty healthy , that is for crew on the books now - if you get CR & get re-hired your hourly max as an SO is $115

No got that wrong there is pay protection for SOs going to the 787 , AIPA just forgot about pay protection for Pilots who get made redundant & come back on year 1 level & also B scale (if A350 ordered). But take huge win pay protection for 18 months if you transfer to 787 -that's the big picture stuff

Interesting comment above re: likely no CRs , - to expensive. The "back of coaster" calc I did , the CR is a no- brainer if QF want to preserve cash

The break even for CR vs stand down is at max 24 months (& you could argue even one year for A330 guys). The reason ,significant pay increments in early years as SO (at least on the A330), that alone(without even considering leave accruals) would pay for a CR for an A330 SO . The multiplier effect of getting a couple of years of service pay increments as a SO is very significant , especially for the A330 increasing approx 30% in first two years

Clearly a lot of guys here just foxing along , claiming you don't return on a B scale or year 1 after CR , "it's all in the eba" - sure it is , and a decree has been issued
stating there will be no CR - sure thing. Clearly the motivation is(or was) to keep as many people below them to absorb any CR

Ironic how AIPA didn't get current crew quarantined from the B scale

lwop/CRs ,even VRs might have been avoided or very much minimised if different strategy had been adopted , pay cut of "X" for certain number of years. AIPA
should have pushed this along , has worked so far at a number of other airlines, project pilotkeeper waste of time & energy

Incredible to hear guys state here , that is not something they would contemplate

They maintain A330 conditions (not 380) for 18 months, unless their seniority means they are essentially turning down a promotion, (obviously not an immediate issue!) in which case they would revert to 787 pay. Yr12 A330 vs 787 pay for people of that vintage. So you are right that it’s a drop either way but my point was that an A380 SO who was in theory CRd would not necessarily return as an A380 SO. But...yeah...it’s not going to happen imho so not worth more words.

Now there you go talking rubbish again. Your logic is not how the break even calculation is made for a liquid company when it comes to CR. Operational considerations/assumptions combined with cashflow are input with a 3-5 year timeframe. The logic is that it is almost always cheaper for a company confident of survival to offer VR than enforce CR over a 5 year time frame.

Additionally, globally there will be a massive strain on training resources. Where and when will all the new type courses be done? Do you remember or know about the 737 training nightmare a few years back...take that and put it on a global scale. Those company who can minimise type transfers etc will have much greater operational flexibility during the recovery. This factor, Telfer, also contributes to an operational break even decision (if actually needed).

It is why (with cost benefits obviously) overseas airlines desire to make redundancy based on type not seniority.

Maybe we should have voted no, left the EA open, had a heap of CR and then rehired on a Z scale 350 pay post covid

Telfer. What are your motives? Who do you work for? I’m pretty sure you do not have skin in this game at QF, but please correct me if you do?

Those pay rates that Telfer is talking about also presume that the A350 is enterIng service and we’re training people onto it. If that’s the case then there are likely to be lots of training/ promotion available on every other type in mainline. The re-hired S/Os aren’t going to have to worry about being on that lower pay rate for very long if that’s the case as they’ll have the ability to bid off it fairly quickly.

The official line on the webinar today was that Qantas “don’t know” what pay rate CR’d crew would be re-hired on as they’re not looking at any CRs at all in the short to medium term.

Further, Qantas are after EA variations to decrease the cost base as the fleets stand back up again. Therefore it could be relatively easy to ensure that any variation put to the vote confirms explicitly that CR’d S/Os return on their current rate when they are subsequently re-employed.So any commentary by Telfer about what rate crew would be re-employed on is quite premature unless Qantas makes crew CR within the next month or so- something they have said they will not be doing.

The talk is "quite premature" to be speculating , well I would have to say that is a very unusual comment to make

QF management have the right to have another plan & start CR from next week, all other steps required prior to CR have now
been done. Someone senior is thinking about what AC & ANZ did

Perhaps it is very relevant to guys in bottom 1000 , whether they will get paid $100 an hour as an SO or their current year $150 / $160 etc

QF refusing to talk about pay rates for returned CR on the basis that it isn't planned , sounds like this is very a much a "restricted topic" . Why an earth would
company not want to tell you that many SOs will be dropping $100K plus if they decide to CR ? - is it their job to do AIPAs job ? . I don't think AIPA will have
so much chance of closing , what they missed in negotiating 10 ("holly mackerel fellas we have dropped our own guys on B scale/year 1") , that horse has bolted

QF already know the rates, anyone who can read knows the rates , you return on year 1 on either current scale or B scale (max of $115 an hour, if 350 ordered)

Angry (why an earth did you chose that name) , was really just referring to a variation kind of thing for when everyone (still on books) is stood up. Sure a bit different
from other airlines who have done similar who remained getting paychecks , but the principal is just the same & I would have thought worth giving a try. AIPA should
have acted earlier , the time to do this would have been before VR, LWOP , that's when you had the most bargaining power. Agree continued SD is a loser , but very much
for both parties , you aren't fully taking into account how much QF are losing (or were going to lose) from SOs getting yearly increases. The cost of SD just pushes
QF closer to CR. You said SD might last a year , so all over in March 2021 ? , are you actually serious there ? ; SDs is going to be for a few years for most LH crew

AIPA have just sat on their hands & let the bargaining position diminish & let QF run the agenda - could these guys possibly have done a worse job ? The two misses
on eba 10 , it's beyond words - like forgetting to put a sunset clause in

Keg, "The new hire SOs will be able to bid off very quickly" - I think you are thinking of the last three or so years , that is pre-global pandemic. SH is the "safest" place to be
& everyone will be trying to move there. Not to mention global recession , I think people will be staying SOs for many years , definitely over 5 years maybe approaching 10.
How is it you know what promotion rates will be post - pandemic in long haul

But let's not talk about pay rates of SOs when they return , & the subsequent net effect on career earnings because some people here have stated it just isn't appropriate

And enough people have stated CR will not occur - therefore that has to correct

Why do you keep posting Telfer. You don’t work for QF, so why do you care so much?

The best thing a person in the bottom 1000 seniority could do is block you. There are many balanced and unbiased posters who reply with the most current information and actual company lines, and will highlight BS when appropriate. The problem here is the BS is coming from you and not the company. (IMHO) I know this comes across as personal, I don’t mean it that way, just highlighting that QF is not out to get you, or f**k anyone over, and their commentary is more valid than conspiracy theories or rumour.

I’d like to thank the 260 LWOP applicants. Look forward to flying with you at some point.

I don’t know about AC (Air China? Air Canada?) but Air New Zealand can NOT stand down crew the way that Qantas has. It’s a very different IR environment which is why they pulled the trigger on CR so quickly. If you’re half as good as you make out to be then you already know this. Or you don’t know it and you’re not half as good as you make out to be.

QF have said repeatedly that they’re not planning on CR. They’ve said repeatedly that they’re focusing on the VR, ER, LWOP and EA variations as to how to manage the surplus now and into the future.

Could they be blind siding the pilot group? Sure. Could there be a meteor hurtling toward earth? Sure. Both are about the same probability. Particularly when the VR is unlikely to have been finalised within that time frame also and is a necessary first step to have resolved prior to CR.

I also know that the main focus in Flight Ops at the moment is dealing with the VR, ER, LWOP and EA issues that that no one is even considering CR until after these other issues are dealt with.

My recommendation for any Qantas pilot is to take crosscutter’s advice and use the ‘ignore’ function for Telfer. In post after post they’ve pursued a singular line of argument that is quite ignorant of what is actually happening within the airline. Their motivation? Who freaking knows. From here on though they’ll be pushing their crap at one less person.

How do you ignore someone? Where is that function?

User CP, Left side column, edit ignore list, add the name, click submit. Voila!

Tel****all has some type of agenda here. Which isn’t to the benefit of the individuals concerned nor what the company line is.

One could almost bet that he works for a startup or a company that’s in competition and is trying to scare people into making irrational decision to interrupt a fast ramp up.

Qantas is unique. It can hang on to it’s resources, ride out the storm and ramp up very quickly with those resources on short notice. The international competition will need years to achieve the same.

Done. Thanks.

Can you read? If someone is CR’d and they DO come back on that aircraft, by the time they do the rates will be higher than that. To the tune of at least $7k a year.

That aircraft will be doing routes with overtime, S/O on that aircraft will most likely be earning $140 k odd... most likely a bit better than whatever career They’ve found in the mean time and certainly nothing to sniff at after a 2-300k CR payout.

Stop with the FUd campaign. It’s tiresome.

Why on earth is Telfer trying to blame Aipa for this? Seriously, if anyone this time a year ago could have seen how things would be now, then yes they would have been aiming to do what you think they should have done with regards to the EBA.

So Telfer, when something happens in an aircraft that a non-normal procedure hasn't been written for, are you going to deal with it in a logical and common sense matter, or sit back and whine that there should be a written procedure, and you are going to blame someone? Ignore the problem and just whine?

I know exactly the risk of CR and being re-employed. I made my decision on the way forward for what is best for me. The CR payout would offset future losses to some extent. Nobody is going to be a winner through all of this, but each of us has to do what is best for our own individual circumstances. The decision you, I, or Donald Duck make, is not the same decision everyone else has to subscribe to.

And of all the other airlines I know outside of Aust, the minimum any group of my friends is getting is 50% of their pay while they are not working. So yes, they accepted a 50% cut, but still get a truckload more than I do in their monthly pay. If their companies had the same clause for stand down available, they would be getting the same as us.

I am sick of a couple of people here who have nothing better than to try and turn this into union bashing, fleet bashing, rank bashing, age bashing, or beat up on the guy who may be one more number senior to you. Through all of this, it's time to look out for your mates. Not try to turn them against each other.

I doubt it. Whether people are on stand down, have taken LWOP or have been made CR (which won’t be happening) if QF decide they need to ramp up quickly and make the call to come back to work, all 3 of those groups will flock back faster than a speeding bullet.

Maybe, but the International competitors have the advantage of mostly being government funded and can ramp up operations initially even if they aren’t profitable. It is a bit of a concern to see Qatar for instance still operating to Australia on regular schedules throughout this time.

How quickly do you think expat airlines can recall 1000s of pilots from all corners of the world, plus cabin crew, get them current and get them going, while competing with the others that want them?

Qantas won’t have that problem.

How is it that you know what promotion rates will be?
:rolleyes:

Mate- you are nothing but a noxious weed on this forum.

My guess is your business/livelihood has benefited from this mess? Half your luck, but don’t come on here getting glee out of telling everyone how messed up our industry is (I think we know that). And FFS don’t make up CR figures you have no idea about.

It is obvious you don’t work for Qantas in fact I doubt you are a pilot in the industry so stop posting crap on here for personal gain.

As for your comments of time in rank as an SO, I very much doubt that, but if COVID continues to “surprise” then I’ll be thankful being an SO for 10 years. It beats stacking shelves.

Right that’s it, I’ve sprayed my bit of Roundup. Consider taking some of it in.

Misinformation
 

There is so much scaremongering and incorrect understanding of the agreement and laws. Embarrassing really.
As a result 260 pilots have taken LWOP and the company never had any intention of making anyone CR. They have said they do not want to pay for it and then have to rehire people anyway.
190 are taking VR and around 60 pilots will be over 65 this year.
Roughly 500 pilots are off the books. That is a very large section of the pilot body. That would have to be about 30% of Long Haul.

5 LH pilots turned 65 post stand down and are still on seniority list as at 13 July- jobkeeper I presume? There are another four who have turned 65 since 13 July up to today’s date.
There are 55 LH pilots who are in the ER zone of turning 65 between todays date and prior to 1 Jul 22.
188 LH pilots requested VR.
260 Pilots in total (not sure LH/SH break down) on LWOP.

That’s 500+ pilots. Nearly 25% of the total pilot workforce. If 90% of the LWOP applicants were LH then it’s about 1/3 of LH pilots that will be off the books.

Telfer, please consider this- I would rather be on A350 S/o pay than stacking shelves at Coles, which are lot of us have had to revert to.
Could you and your BS agenda please go away, we come to the forum to have a robust discussion, not have to read your FUD.
As for your AIPA bashing, what would you have done differently in negotiations? Started PIA when there was no flying? Have a talk to any JQ pilot (oh, that's right, your not in the industry) and see what's happening in an open EA.
Go away mate, you are just embarrassing yourself now.

Could it be that those who are 65+ can't be forced into retirement due to the rostering limitations brought about by another country's regulations regarding operating over age 65, when there actually is no international flying? To force them into retirement would appear discriminatory when those under 65 (other than some 330 pilots) aren't flying outside Australia either.

C441, I have heard that argument a few times, but in my view it is a conflation of two different issues. One issue is the inherent requirements of the job, the other issue is the trigger for stand down. I do not believe there is an issue with unlawful age discrimination.

Under already unfortunate circumstances what a way to finish a long career, scraping every last cent as you go out the door having lived the golden era of aviation and conditions, LH commands in their 20s and 30s with large super balances.

Not to mention the moral side that we now have 260 odd pilots at the beginning/middle of their career trying to set themselves and families up taking LWOP for long terms.

Maybe it’s time to acknowledge a bloody good run, not sweep up every last cent or lower themselves to bid for the 737 that they would never have dreamed of doing until they hit 65.