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Qantas to reduce heavy maintenance labour by 60%
Qantas say they are not off shoring, howevever, as the old aircraft retire (747, 767) the new aircraft they buy are maintained overseas. This is off shoring by stealth, and Australian jobs will go as the plan for closure of 1 or maybe 2 heavy maintenance bases before the end of the decade comes to fruition. Hundreds of Aussies will be out of work.
The pride and excellence of Qantas engineering is compromised by the view that it is not cost effective to carry out wide body heavy maintenance in Australia. What will be the cost for this short term gain? To Australia and to Qantas? Will passengers be happy to know that the aircraft they fly internationally on are not maintained in house? I wonder? |
Maintenance?!?
We don' need no steenking maintenance!! Seriously, this is heading in a really bad direction. On another forum I frequent, a guy who works for a maintenance provider in Texas posted this. The issue that sparked his rant was that some super-duper imported "mechanics" working on a 757 hadn't chocked the aircraft and it rolled a couple hundred feet across the apron. -Once again, not me. Someone who works in Texas; I work at a large MRO. My employer sends teams out on recruiting trips to fun places like Panama, The Philippines, and Mexico. We have entire crews of mechs who cant speak any english. (In all honesty the Filipinos are kick ass mechs. The Panamanians are effing morons.) For that matter we have entire crews of uncertificated mechanics. Our FAA says it's all legal too (the bastards). Only the leads are required to have tickets and be able to read and write english...and most of them only have repairman's tickets. These guys work under the repair station's umbrella, not their A&P because they dont have one. They have nothing to loose. The whole situation stinks. My employer BS'd the State Department and got these guys H1-B Visas (dont ask me how). It's all crap. They are mechanics not engineers or scientists. AA is about to dump a couple thousand more into the market but my employer doesn't pay **** so it's hard for an ex-union mech to stomach coming to a place like this to work for the peanuts they offer. I'm in QC, I shouldn't complain about my wage. I have an old friend in QC with SWA up at Love Field. His base pay is more than I make on OT. And dont get me started on UPS mech wages. Sheesh!!! If you think about it, it makes sense for an operator to farm out his C checks. Instead of maintaining a hangar full of prima-donna union mechanics, you send your c-checks to a third-party maintenance operation in Texas or Panama or Singapore or China. You only send a few reps to babysit the birds and scream about hours bid on non-routine cards. It's a win for the operator but a huge kick in the huevos for American workers. And the f**king FAA could give a damn. |
Rumor out of the latest meeting between Qantas and it's employee unions is that they ( Qantas) have no regard for the consultation processes laid out in the QEPM or in any signed EBA.
Their attitude is now one of bulldozing their way through to making 500 LAME'S redundant over the next five years. That represents 30-40% of the current LAME's gone in that period Australia wide. Hardly represents a good career path for any youngster starting out now. Let alone the uncertainty now present amongst the current work force. |
What will be the cost for this short term gain? To Australia and to Qantas? Will passengers be happy to know that the aircraft they fly internationally on are not maintained in house? |
The problem is 82% (per Joyce) and growing are quite happy to pay cheaper fares and fly on someone other than Qantas, someone who gets maintenance done outside Australia. If the 18% or so that fly with Qantas want to fly with other operators for a cheaper price they would have done so. I know many who fly Qantas as they "feel safe" flying with them. Perhaps its a lost cause but Id venture to say that people who fly with other operators would have no idea and are ignorant of the quality of the maintenance on the aircraft they are flying on. No, Qantas dos'nt have a monopoly on quality, but at least you can be sure Qantas planes are maintained by experienced,well qualified engineers who have a vested interest in the company they are proud to work for. |
I wouldn't worry too much about china or the middle east.
Once the aircraft are developed that can fly direct services point to point economically, 5th freedom rights will expire naturally. European airlines, American or Aussie airlines will fly point to point and the punters will fly direct to their destinations with incumbents, rather than hubbing through a third world world port like the current system. Airlines like emirates etc are making their money flying westerners between their usual ports with their geographical fifth freedom rights. Point to point will bypass that :cool: Whether the airframe makers will build them considering the unprecedented business they are experiencing from these regions with current technology that favors them is another thing. On a side note, and I feel for lames I really do, but do you think it's economically viable keeping a heavy maitenance workforce on the books when aircraft like the 787 don't need heavy checks for 12 years? Once the current fleets are replaced, this is the new reality. It's sad, but it's the reality. Of course any unscheduled maintenance (like A380s wings) are covered by the manufacturer. |
Qantas cuts revealed | Geelong, VIC, Australia
Seems that the ALAEA has chosen to put out any news on Avalon via the Geelong Advertiser there own website has had nothing for 2 weeks. |
On a side note, and I feel for lames I really do, but do you think it's economically viable keeping a heavy maitenance workforce on the books when aircraft like the 787 don't need heavy checks for 12 years? I'm not sure I would want to fly on a new type of aircraft that hadn't had a major check for 10 -12 yrs. Point in case, I'm sure Airbus were not planning to have to reinspect wings on the A380 so soon into service. History tells us that rarely has a manufacturer lived up to the promises given to buyers.Much has been paid out to airlines in compensation over the years,including Qantas, Hell, Boeing are already recalling 787s that haven't entered service yet, due to manufacturing flaws. I guess though it will all fall under the warranty and maintenance will be driven by the manufacturer,who will pay for promises that cannot be met! |
On a side note, and I feel for lames I really do, but do you think it's economically viable keeping a heavy maitenance workforce on the books when aircraft like the 787 don't need heavy checks for 12 years? Note: never buy the first model of anything :ok: |
it's interesting that the flaws in the A380 and the 787 are because of outsourcing. I have seen the Boeing chief say it on camera. They had to buy a plant that was making part of the 787 just so the project didn't collapse!
The same is said for the A380. I think you'll find only the final assembly is done in house! Pretty scary hey. |
The same is said for the A380. I think you'll find only the final assembly is done in house! Pretty scary hey. |
"I wouldn't worry too much about china or the middle east.
Once the aircraft are developed that can fly direct services point to point economically, 5th freedom rights will expire naturally." Such old thinking. Direct services to Europe will become less and less important. Its the BRIC, particularly China, that will be valuable destinations. You guys should start thinking forward instead of backward. |
The writing has been on the wall for all to see for some time . And the Unions have sat by and done the usual jump up and down routine but little else . When will they wake up to the fact that the jobs they have are well paid and need to be protected , not destroyed by a Union Secretary persuing a personal vendetta after getting a big payout
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60% means offshore,end of maintenance in Australia,good luck to qantas who says safety come first,no such thing as safety its all about shareholders and board of directors, money come first than safety,all airlines that are buying aircraft are hiring more engineers but qantas are reducing engineers because Joyce are comparing aircraft to cars.Joyce talk to ur engineers
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Qantas to cut maintenance workers BY: STEVE CREEDY, AVIATION WRITER From: The Australian March 06, 2012 12:00AM Increase Text Size Decrease Text Size The Qantas Melbourne maintenance facility in Tullamarine is one of three plants at risk of being closed. Picture: Stuart McEvoy. Source: The Australian QANTAS expects labour demand at its heavy maintenance facilities to drop by 60 per cent over the next five years, the equivalent of more than 870 jobs, as it retires aircraft and brings in new maintenance systems and planes that require less work. The airline last month announced plans to consolidate heavy maintenance facilities in Brisbane, Melbourne and Avalon, near Geelong, which collectively employ 1460 workers. It is consulting with unions about its options, but this is the first time it has indicated how far it may need to shrink its heavy maintenance operations. Details that emerged last week indicate Qantas has now narrowed down the possibilities to three options, the most dramatic of which is to close down two of the bases and consolidate the work at either Melbourne, Brisbane or Avalon. Melbourne, which concentrates on maintenance of Boeing 737s and employs about 400 workers, is seen as the least likely to survive. The other options would see the consolidation of Boeing 737 work now done at Melbourne into the newer Brisbane facility, with 747 work continuing at Avalon or both 767 and 747 maintenance taking place at Avalon. "The problem we are trying to solve is an anticipated 60 per cent reduction in labour demand over the next five years," Tony Lowery, the airline's head of heavy maintenance, told staff in a message. "The criteria we are examining to help us make the best choice include: ongoing operating costs in the context of keeping existing heavy maintenance on shore, capital costs, and ability to support new systems of maintenance." Any job losses from heavy maintenance consolidation would be in addition to the 500 jobs Qantas announced it was shedding last month. Another 600 catering jobs will go if its catering division is sold. The maintenance review has sparked a lobbying war between Victoria and Queensland as the two states fight to keep their facilities open. Victorian unions have urged the Baillieu government to try to keep the jobs in that state, and Queensland Premier Anna Bligh has threatened legal action if the airline tries to close down its Brisbane facility before 2014. The airline has already said it will not be doing heavy maintenance on the Airbus A380 in Australia, and expects it will be well into the next decade before it has to make a decision on its bigger fleet of Boeing 787 Dreamliners. Change for an improvement in maintenance would be one thing. This is just an ideological race to the bottom for the cheapest/nastiest option possible. And a union busting exercise. Pure and simple. The vast 737 experience that is about to be flushed away by the bean counters through, what would appear to be the imminent demise of QF Heavy Maint Tulla, is a disgrace. And the industry as a whole will be all the poorer for it.:( |
ALAEA is extra quite on all this where are they ?
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ALAEA is extra quite on all this where are they ? Bugger-all the ALAEA can probably do about it now. Qantas appear to have no regard for the consultation procedures laid down in either their own policy & procedures manual (A CASA approved document) or in any of the relevant EBA's that they have signed. It appears as though the agenda is just smash their way through and let tomorrows management (and the current employees) deal with the consequences. Where are CASA in all this you might ask? Well, if they were a little more focused in actually regulating Qantas rather than treating them like a customer, then perhaps this debacle could be avoided. However, sadly the national regulator has dropped the ball. Anytime that problems are reported to them they just meekly ask Qantas (or Jetstar) to fix it. Susbquently washing their hands of the whole situation whilst telling anyone who will listen that they have done all they can do. Jetstar were, apparently, recently given a show cause notice from CASA regarding the sad state of their maintenance watch department (among other things). Information not obtained through the regulators diligence but, rather from a whistleblower. The fact that Qantas managed to hush it all up is testament to the skill of the cronies in their PR department. The fact that CASA has down nothing further other than to ask the fox to guard the chicken coup it a testament to its inadequacy. Unfortunately, the only thing that will derail the farcical relationship between Qantas and CASA is a smoking hole in the ground. At which point all those that now propagate the myth that new aircraft require less maintenance will be ducking for cover.:ugh: |
Originally Posted by chockchucker
Unfortunately, the only thing that will derail the farcical relationship between Qantas and CASA is a smoking hole in the ground. At which point all those that now propagate the myth that new aircraft require less maintenance will be ducking for cover.:ugh:
Originally Posted by Managers Perspective
You do what the rest of the world does, you manage it.
This is typical of QF Management. Good management prepares their business for the unfortunate events that beset any business by planning, by building fire breaks, by immediately attending to any spot fires that break out on their watch. Qantas management has a policy of taking no precautions, of ignoring the first signs of smoke, indeed of ignoring spot fires. It is only when there is a raging bushfire, when irreparable damage has been done, that Qantas management then, and only then...........
Originally Posted by Managers Perspective
........you manage it.
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Qantas to reduce heavy maintenance labour by 60% I hope this thread gets saved for future reference. It won't be until 5, 10 or 15 years time when a Qantas aircraft goes in, that decisions such as these will be identified as simply a removing of a f****** big piece of cheese. |
breaking news.. Qantas flight 487 bound for Melb forced to turn around..I saw sparks fly outside my window!
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Rabbit on the runway got gobbled up into the left engine during take-off roll. Air turn back. No biggy. Blades bent and acoustic lining damaged. **** happens.
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(Thread drift....):
MOA999: 'We will be left with a small third party aircraft maintenance industry, but then we won't have an oil refining industry, a steel processing industry, a garment manufacturing industry... just mining... dig it up and ship it out' There's always a career in aged care....I'll look after you.... Jack Ranga: 'Note: never buy the first model of anything' A saying, variously worded, comes to mind: 'Be not the first by which the new are tried; Be not the first by which the old are set aside.' ('Destination Disaster- The story of the DC10'- Eddie/Page/Potter, circa 1976) |
QF Redundancies
Any news of engineers already accepting offers?
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EOI period doesn't end till the 25th. Then the consideration stage. If there's less volunteers than packages, one would expect all volunteers to get their package then the consideration be given to who gets tapped.
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Doing wonders for the job prospects of non QF LAMES...........NOT:{
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Its a shame to see a wealth of talent, experience and Australian expertise laid to waste in pursuit of a few fat bonuses. Some ppl have no integrity.
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Compared to all the talk during the EBA people seem resigned to just going quietly now.
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WTF is wrong with the moderators on this site?
These two threads have nothing to do with each other. The redundancies have nothing to do with Heavy Maintenance. Why not just let the thread run it's course or is it just because it's not a pilot issue. |
1. Thread drift is not previously unknown on PPRuNe.
2. If a reduction in Australian maintenance capacity is somehow not relevant to redundancies, then for what other reason are there redundancies? Do tell us, J-A-1. Or maybe you need to put in an appropriate smilie to let us dumb pilots know you are really being sarcastic. e.g. :rolleyes: AJ and the executive coterie are the only people who spruik the lack of connection between a decline in capacity and a need to reduce the workforce. To everyone else, it appears self evident. |
AJ and the executive coterie are the only people who spruik the lack of connection between a decline in capacity and a need to reduce the workforce. To everyone else, it appears self evident. |
Arnold, I am saying - there seems to be 100% connection between engineer redundancies and a downsizing of QF maintenance capacity.
Mr Joyce [and apparently Jet A1] are the only people who seem to think there is no connection -it's just a weird coincidence or something - even when clearly and self evidently Australian jobs ARE being lost. |
The current redundacies have nothing to do with heavy maintenance.More about a reduction in wide bodies, next it will be MOD and finally it will be heavy. Oh and don't forget the loss of those troublesome customer airlines. Muppets!
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I think you'll find the 2nd thread was about the redundancies in Line Maintenance (mostly in SAM and other domestic line stations). There are currently no redundancies in Heavy Maintenance (Tulla, Avv or Bris). If you put down your PA mic down long enough and listen to those that are actually effected you might learn something Captain.
Being made redundant is a fairly big deal to those faced with it and a lot of engineers view this site for info. |
and Google "thread drift" while you're at it and explain to me how it relates to the few posts of the 2nd thread... It was the other thread, that had no replys for over a week, that was drifting Captain.
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How many are likely to subscribe to the SAM positions? I have heard 70 positions to go.
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I think it's 30 odd LAME and 20 or so AME positions in SAM. I think about half of those will be volunteers. Interested to hear if anyone else is counting the volunteers.
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Well. I'm in Heavy Maint Melbourne, and we all know we are about to be closed down - about 400 LAMEs and AMEs will be made redundant.....
Amazing thing is people are still doing great work and getting things done, all the time knowing they will be out of work in a few months. At one of the last meetings, Management congratulated the people who worked on the 737 Window frame replacement - a big, big job. They remarked that on our first time, we had done it in 9 days, yet the typical time was 14 days........... Doesn't mean a thing though.......we will still be shut down......... |
Albeit in the context of an approaching state election in Queensland, an interesting take on the Heavy Maintenance Question in the Courier Mail Today.......
400 jobs on the line in Qantas overhaul in Brisbane by: Darrell Giles From: The Sunday Mail (Qld) March 18, 2012 12:00AM BRISBANE is looking increasingly likely to lose its Qantas heavy maintenance operations and 400 jobs in major restructuring by the national air carrier. Only a month ago, union bosses tipped a purpose-built facility at Brisbane Airport to be chosen as the sole survivor of a plan to reduce maintenance facilities across the country from three to one. But sources told The Sunday Mail Qantas was now leaning towards consolidation at Avalon, Victoria. A final decision is expected in late April. A move to Victoria would be a blow to the Sunshine State after the unemployment rate jumped from 5.4 to 5.7 per cent in February, reflecting significant turbulence in the local retail, manufacturing and banking industries. The rate was 0.5 per cent above the national average. Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce announced a review of the heavy maintenance facilities last month after a big plunge in profits for the airline - an 83 per cent drop down to $42 million. Jobs go as Qantas profit plummets Hundreds of Qantas jobs up in the air Premier Bligh flags legal action over Qantas jobs "There is simply not enough heavy maintenance work to justify the three facilities in Melbourne, Brisbane and Avalon," Mr Joyce said. "Do we need to go to two or go to one? We can't maintain all three." In its two-month review, Qantas has considered: * Consolidation into Melbourne. * Consolidation into Avalon. * Consolidation into Brisbane. * Consolidation into the Brisbane facility, with Boeing 747s maintained in Avalon. * Boeing 737s maintained in Brisbane, Boeing 747s and 767s in Avalon. Brisbane's multi-million-dollar heavy maintenance facility was completed in 2005 to service Qantas's Boeing 767 and Airbus A330 fleet. The Melbourne option has all but been ruled out because it has the oldest facility, built in 1970, and it has narrow-body hangars for Boeing 737s. Big money would have to be spent to fit the wide-body fleet. A Qantas spokesman said yesterday the operations would remain in Australia and not move offshore. Sadly, from this article it would appear Tulla is dead.:( A mistake of monumental proportions. However, IF Avalon comes to the fore of managerial thinking, hopefully some of the vast 737 expertise that is currently there may not be totally lost. |
Woolcott it is not amazing, its professionalism.It is not found thru all areas within Q sadly.
As for which base survives, I would expect considerable inter state bargaining to go on and let's say 'strategically released rumours' to the effect that one or the other has the inside running to create tension in any unofficial interstate bidding process. I think in the end it will be a cluster ^%# that will cost jobs and expertise. You cant buy or put price on having a vast knowledge base to draw on. |
At one of the last meetings, Management congratulated the people who worked on the 737 Window frame replacement - a big, big job. They remarked that on our first time, we had done it in 9 days, yet the typical time was 14 days........... Other operator now only doing double frame replacements |
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