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There are many Jetstar pilots who understand the benefits AIPA can bring to their professional lives. There are many more who are beginning to.
If this vote is successful, the likes of Led Zeppelin will stop talking with such vitriol and may even start to make concilliatory noises towards those who dare to think differently. He and his camp will have the ascendancy and will feel justified and relieved. If it is unsuccessful, I have no doubt he and his ilk will ignore the validity of the democratic vote and do just what they did last time; go to the company looking for an individual agreement. It is my strong belief that management will not, however, come to the party. It will be up to the remainder of us (the majority) to look past their selfish behaviour and provide them with the united front they need to ultimately get their coveted pay-rise. Either way, rest assured that this entire process will have a positive outcome. That is, the increased awareness that every pilot needs an effective, properly structured and disciplined union. |
Led,
Your fears are not based in reality. It’s all been answered before and it’s becoming quite futile and pointless if you won’t actually read the posts of those that respond to you. It’s quite one sided when others respond to the points you raise, opening discussion and you ignore them and instead choose to just repeat the same illogical rant to which they have previously answered. This shows weakness in your argument. What also shows weakness in your argument is when others ask you a question and you ignore it and just repeat the rant. So for the third time; “What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.” If you can’t answer this I can only conclude YOU are not being up-front with your motives. Nuf. Ps: Nicely put Flyingins. The second scenario will hopefully be the new definition of irony. One day they may even thank you. |
AWA Abolish
Hi All
With the new EBA being voted on (This week I believe). How will this effect new starters who have signed an AWA in the last month of so...??? Ang :confused: |
Supply and Demand
Sherm, why do the costs have to trickle down through Jetstar. I hear this argument all the time "If the Pilots \ Engineers get a big payrise then every other employee group will want one". So what! The answer to that argument is that there is no shortage of baggage handlers, check in staff, flight attendants etc and this is unskilled labor. What is happening is the management, (through their inability and lack of desire to explain simple supply and demand), have made their problem the Pilots' \ Engineers' problem. It's about time it stopped. Remember, low cost carriers do not mean low cost pilots (SWA, Ryanair, Easyjet etc.). The Pilots employed by Jetstar deserve better from their management and certainly deserve better from their Pilots' Council. The AFAP is a dead duck in the major airline arena. It is there to provide tenure to 2 long serving staff members. The Virgin guys do their own thing, the Jetstar guys do their own thing, the Eastern and Sunstate guys would like to do their own thing but anyone with any potential to do so has already left, is in the process of leaving, or is not political (Jarse). Unity is what will stop Dixon, Joyce and Oldmeadow from being rewarded with your salaries in their bonus payments. If you can't see who the real enemy is, then I am sorry but you deserve all you get. :ugh: |
Only a guess but I'd say it would depend on the outcome. I'd doubt anyone would know at this point. Maybe ring the various associations and see what their IR reps say. Might help determine how you'd want to vote.
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From todays Austalian- Business Section
With International running costs 40 per cent lower than those of Qantas, Jetstar's competitive power is strong.
"We have managed to keep costs much tighter," Mr Westaway says. "We have managed to keep overheads lower through the use of IT. Our people are highly skilled so we can do more with less people." And, while still competitive, Jetstar's pay rates are lower than those of Qantas employees. "A Jetstar captain's pay is probably 40 to 50 per cent less than a Qantas captains pay," Mr Westaway said. You folk at Jetstar need to drop the paranoia about the AIPA, and look a little closer to Bourke Street for those who are constantly lowering your expectations via scare campaigns, while advancing themselves. This goes for both your managers, and those on your representative association benefitting from miraculous rises to fame and glory. Think long, hard and broadly before you cast your vote for what you want for the next 5 years! |
Ask yourselves a few questions:
Q: Are you as "good" a Pilot as Qantas short/longhaul guys? Q: Why do you accept [40-50%??!] less than QF shorthaul/longhaul awards? Q: How much do some others in your company earn compared to QF? A: I can't say about first 2 Questions but know first hand that some earn MORE! :ugh: |
Go grab a calculator.
J* expects to move 7,5mil passengers over the next 12 months. If the pilots want (let's grab a good number!), say AUS$15000/year increase across the board - Yeah! That would mean a 20cent/100pilots per ticket, price increase. So 600 pilots will mean a AUS$ 1,20 increase in ticket price etc. Since pay is tax deductable for a company this would come down to below $1,00 per ticket increase for 600 pilots to earn $15000 extra EACH! Now the problem is, the management see 7,5mil people giving $1,00 each after tax, thats a cool number they can have for themselves! Why give it to the pilots? YOU have to MAKE THEM. To do that you HAVE TO work together as a J* group first, and then as a bigger group together with the other airline's pilots. You can not do it the other way around, by first working together with the other airline's pilots and then as a local group, first get the J* pilots together. When you act as a front inside the airline you can achieve ANYTHING ( even get AIPA to represent you ). |
Great last post.
Why pilots who won't support JPC think (not) supporting AIPA will be better beggars belief. The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting when I tell em 56% of J* pilots voted against a substantial payrise and getting everyone on an EBA. They look kind of strange, confused even "WHY?" Well some because AIPA/AFAP said vote NO. Some because they felt like sending a message on behalf of pilots not yet employed who were going to be paid 5% less for the first 12 months. Some because they are all worked up about what the CEO gets paid...and some probably just don't know exactly why. One reaction was, and I quote. "**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff later...in this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise". It just has me stuffed why anyone would vote NO to a payrise and having all J* pilots on the same EBA. Is that not a starting point towards what the QF pilots say is AIPAs GAOL, with no downside risk if AIPA cannot deliver? |
Not much you can fix once you're Locked into a 5 year EBA.
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Chimbu,
What if the offer was 50 cents and a Mars Bar, are you suggesting take it, because it is a rise, and get the rest later????? You have no idea of the realities of Enterprise Bargaining. The logic of take a pay rise now and fix stuff later shows a very poor understanding of the industrial landscape in Australia, and that includes the changes that may come under the new Gov't. There is no power at all for 5 years once this thing is locked away. None. Nothing. The management is desperate to lock this away, it gives them certainty in a tightening pilot market, and certainty is gold to them. According to one of the sycophants "AJ gave his word" that if it got voted down they would not come back to the table until September. Well his word is worth as much as I suspected, he's back with great haste, straight into bed with the AFAP (could you imagine that 2 years ago!) and a re-vote. If the J* pilots are smart they'll vote it down again and he'll be back. Patience, at many times, is a virtue, this is one of those times. |
Chimbu,
The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting You show just how out of touch you are when you suggest that a reaction of - "**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff later...in this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise". So Chimbu, I ask you what your vested interest is in all of this...let us know or disappear off back to "expatland" as you put it and keep your nose out of this. TL |
On my calculator its worth 38k just for me this year alone, more than any J*eba offered in the past.
Plenty of money slipped in the back door through retention bonus, profit share, 50% flight pay paxing credits ,credits for Eps, sim and more days off. Anyone who thinks they are going to get a big payrise in base over cpi is dreaming. Has not happened with QF F/A,s ,not the engineers or even the QF pilots. Even our saviours in parliment are not supportive of rises above cpi. J* boys and girls had there chance in previous eba,s now baulk at someting that actually puts some coin in pockets. Ultimately the market is setting conditions and guess what the J* attrition rate is less than Dixon's quoted 3% for qantas so things can't be that bad. |
Ignorant?
CC,
That’s a great story of your mate’s response but if all you told him was that he’d get a pay rise and not the full story of the situation here it’s hardly a surprising reaction. What he’s shown is that he’s totally uninformed of what’s at stake for all of us and the positives of what can come out of unity. If this wasn’t the case then it’s actually a great example of why we need to get together to help protect ourselves from the company recruiting blokes like this as DEC’s who will take the job on ANY terms. Nuf. |
JJ,
I've said it before but it's not the market that's setting conditions if you take this deal, it's Jet*/QF management. That's a totally different thing. 'The Market' actually allows us in times of a pilot shortage and unprecedented airline growth in this reagion to negotiate a much better deal if we get together and do it as a group. That's what management is trying to prevent by inciting division. Nuf. |
Unity
Good folks, I sit on the sideline as a soon to be retired veteran of a few campaigns. I am dismayed at the apparent lack of learning achieved over the past 20 odd years. Throughout this thread there are calls for unity. They come from all sides of the argument. All either espouse its virtue or at least acknowledge its value. I cannot recall any post advocating dislocation of the pilot group. Frankly I think unity is a utopian dream. The aims and interests of the various protagonists are too diverse, and in some cases mutually exclusive, for a pure unity to exist. The only common ground in this argument is that individual deals and action are detrimental to the system. It has always been thus. Strangely, although management don’t seem to recognise or acknowledge it, in the long term a rational, cohesive, unified, employee group is a far easier beast to deal with than a band of individual mavericks. So if we can all agree that unity should be a goal, and that the concept of pure unity is not a realistic possibility, lets look at the objectives and history of unity within our industry. In the blue corner we have AIPA. Operating under a mandate from the QF mainline pilots to look after their interests Rejected unity with the Australian industry when (soon to be management) Westwood and Cant spat the dummy and walked out on AFAP circa 1982 (or thereabouts) Rejected unity with, and effectively limited the career opportunities of, the Eastern, Sunstate pilot group Rejected unity with Impulse (J*) pilot group, in an unsuccessful attempt to limit that group’s career opportunities Under threat of restriction of their opportunities has seen the light and wishes to unify all Q group pilots under the one umbrella to the benefit of all ?? In the red corner we have AFAP Operating under a mandate from an amalgamation of diverse pilot groups from the entire industry Was a unified umbrella over the whole industry, until busted open by a single interest group (AIPA) circa 1982 Has a history of trying to keep the industry under one cohesive umbrella Has no vested interest in the promotion of one group of members over any other group of members Having suffered from the most vicious government/company industrial assault ever perpetrated in Australia, has survived to fight another day (in contrast to their protagonists none of whom exist any longer) In the green corner we have the JPC A single interest group operating under a mandate from the J* pilot body Sought unity with the Q mainline group but was abandoned at the altar A relatively under funded and inexperienced organisation that has had difficulty reining in the aspirations of individuals whom it should rightly represent. And in the yellow corner we have the free marketeers. A diverse minority who will pretend to offer allegiance to whomever appears to offer the best deal, only to turn their back at the slightest hint of a better deal by going it alone or changing allegiance Gentle folks , if you look at history, and the objectives of each of the groups, the best long term option is to have a specific council under the umbrella of an organisation that has no vested interest in a preferential outcome. Too often this industry has seen the results of short term gain and longterm pain. Vote wisely Maui |
Qantas Freight has just awarded a 6 year contract to Atlas to operate three 744's.Where is AIPA protecting and promoting the interests of their present members and how can those in J* and the regionals reasonably conclude that they(AIPA) could do any better for them???
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For the information of Ppruner's, AIPA's President has posted the following on another website:
Any Group pilot wanting to know more about what AIPA's GM and I had to say this week about Consolidating all Qantas Group pilots, Jetstar EBA 4 and why this is important for the future prosperinty of us all can listen to the audio recording available from: http://www.aipa.org.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=8Ya7Jm5v69w%3d&tabid=57& mid=468&forcedownload=true Should anyone have difficulty with the directlink, try hooking up off the public area of the AIPA Website at:http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/57/Default.aspx |
Nothin, the future you are promoting for J* pilots is one directed by AIPA for the main betterment of AIPA members. If you get your way the only way into a decent job in Australia would be via the QF selection process.
Each successful pilot would then be offerred a job at the bottom of one of the QF group companies and then, subject to various type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA, would agonisingly work their way up to the holy grail, a gig in mainline if they live long enough, all the while being by-passed by other new recruits fortunate enough to be offerred an initial entry on a better/bigger/faster/shinier type. So no future other than to go DJ or overseas for anyone not fortunate enough to be one of the "chosen". Meanwhile most of the 787 expansion in J* would quite naturally go to the QF pilots as J* wouild no longer be able to recruit externally, thereby denying any expat Aussie the opportunity to come home to a decent job. J* would no longer be able to offer good command prospects to its newly recruited fo's. I am not saying there is anything wrong with AIPA trying to achieve that for its members but I don't think it would bode well for J* pilots or the industry in general. A little balance is a good thing. What you seem to be suggesting is that J* pilots should reject a better pay deal, more days off, profit share type bonus for sharing the good times, and other benefits so that QF Fo's and So's can get access to accellerated commands in J*. I can't see anything in it for the J* pilots in the short to medium term. It certainly is a big ask from a group that seems to have done alright so far for themselves, without external influences trying to determine their future. |
Maybe everyone should be aware of trolls on this thread.
maui - your post lost any shred of credibility when you stated "...(soon to be management) Westwood and Cant...". Neither of these two men were ever management in QF. However one wonders why you have conveniently left out the name of the second President of AIPA, Kearns, who did become a long time senior manager in QF. Maybe some of the posts here are actually being done by management to cloud the issues! TurbTool - Quote "...type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA..." You obviously have absolutely no idea (or choose to ignore) how a GOAL as suggested by AIPA would work. |
Just Relaxin
Did Westwood not marry the boss's daughter, and then hold senior office in the training and standards area? Did Cant not subsequently hold senior office in the training and standards area? Maui |
Perhaps for brevity's sake I didn't post the entire conversation:ugh:
Interested in DEC? Nope. In fact a No vote would be helpful to potential DECs and I have been advocating a Yes vote. If you want no comment from without then why post a thread on a public BB...in fact if industry comment is unwelcome generally lets shut Pprune down all together. Why am I interested? Perhaps as an expat, with mates in CX,KA,EK, PX etc, as well as QF,VB and J*, I have a more global understanding of the current 'pilot shortage' than those of you who have never worked offshore? Has anyone going to the AIPA road shows actually asked Woods what he thinks of EBA 4/JPC's efforts? Anybody tried to extract a guarantee from Woods that AIPA can produce something better, or are you just sitting there inhaling his spiel? If AIPA cannot deliver on their rhetoric what will be the effect on 'pilot unity' in that scenario? Would answers to those questions be deemed useful before a vote was cast...would they influence how you voted? If, hyperthetically speaking, Woods thought that EBA 4 was an impressive document and the JPC had done a great job how would that effect people's vote? If he was unable to guarantee AIPA could deliver a better outcome how would that effect peoples view of AIPA's motives, rightly or wrongly, and their subsequent vote? Anyone want to answer those questions? But in the end either Yes or NO doesn't effect me so I'll just sit back at a safe distance and watch it all unfold....again. |
Ahhh I see the real agenda now. The AIPA naysayers here are expats not actually in the QF/J* sphere but eyeing off J* DEC's. A combined QF group works against that as the J* commands would go to J* FO's first then QF/ Qantaslink pilots second.
Finally the truth is told.:mad: |
The Aviation Industry is showing signs of slowing, then what.
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Kremin how you get that out of my, or any other, like posts is bizarre:confused:
If J* pilots vote NO it will be open slather for DECs and Individual contracts...those left on EBAs will be marginalised...if they Vote yes and all are united on the same EBA, which enshrines seniority among other things, it will be very much harder for the company to bring in DECs...and AJ has said in the past he would not bring in pilots on AWAs, or whatever form individual contracts take post work choices, if the EBA was voted up. He also said if it was voted down he would do whatever it took to ensure J* was successful. How about you answer my questions rather than attack me personally. |
Chimbu.
The labour governments new IR legislation states that if 50% of a group of employees wants an EBA, then that is what they shall have. AWA's will be dead next month. The Libs won't stand in the way. Your wrong. So very, very wrong. No I get it, Led Zep hasn't left EK in the last 13 months. He's still there. |
Just Relaxin,has anyone from AIPA actually told you how they intend to get GD and co. to agree to the GOAL as proposed?
Chimbu,at the AIPA forum in Sydney last Friday there was all of four regional pilots and the Brisbane show earlier in the week had a few more.Interest would appear to be minimal based on those numbers. |
Having worked in (non airline) management, dividing workers is an old (but questionable) technique. What you have to realise is that management of course, is trying to get the best deal possible. By having a divided workforce, this plays into their hands as people will start to worry and accept the lowest offer. However, on the other hand, if all Qantas group pilots were united, the better off those employee's will be. As AIPA now has the legal ability to represent all Qantas group pilots wouldn't it be logical to have them represent you? Ask yourself this. What does that AFAP offer you?
There would appear to be much self interest being espoused on this thread and it is very obvious that there is a lot of untruths being told. Personally it doesn't affect me, however, I would suggest that all Qantas group pilots get behind AIPA as they appear to have the best resources to represent your interests. One further question. Do you want the money in your pockets or the exec's as in the form of bonus's? Because that is what is going to happen if you don't wake up to yourselves. |
..." You obviously have absolutely no idea (or choose to ignore) how a GOAL as suggested by AIPA would work. Read into it what you like but if pilots could willy nilly jump from one type to another and one position to another at their whim at the company's expense then there is no way management will ever agree to the GOAL. The AIPA president, I am sure, knows this and that is why his concept included the freezes. Ask him yourself. The labour governments new IR legislation states that if 50% of a group of employees wants an EBA, then that is what they shall have. AWA's will be dead next month. The J* pilots vote NO again. Management accepts that decision and continues to employ under AWAs while it can, offerring the terms and conditions of the failed EBA to all existing and future AWA employees as well as existing EBA employees willing to switch to the AWA on those T&Cs. J* ends up in the short term with 200 EBA and 200 AWA employees. Assume a ballot is held regarding EBA choice and 50% Vote for an EBA. The Company negotiates and offers an EBA on lesser terms and conditions than the existing AWAs, will that be accepted by the EBA pilots? If so will the new legislation require all existing AWA pilots to transfer to the new EBA on lesser terms and conditions? I think NOT. The 50% that voted for a new EBA may get it but it will not guarantee all J* pilots are on the same deal. That is assuming the J* pilots could actually get themselves into a position to negotiate a new deal on behalf of the 50%. Of course AIPA and the AFAP wouild be both willing to do that on their behalf. The danger in relying on the Labour Governments legislation to deliver a better deal is self evident. Don't forget who introduced individual agreements etc in the first place. The Labour Government will not outlaw individual common law contracts. Now consider that the new EBA negotiated on behalf of the 50% is a better deal than the AWAs. Then all pilots could go onto it. So in short no detriment to the AWA contingent. But a very big risk to the EBA guys in the event of a NO vote on the current Ballot. |
Sorry Tool,
What I heard reference the GOAL List was that there would be, as you state, base/ type/ company freeze in place for the company to amortize their training cost over a period of time to be agreed upon. I'm led to believe that training cost/ period to be somewhere around 5 years. However so as not to disadvantage pilots nor the company if a pilot wishes to avail themselves of a promotional opportunity prior to the agreed freeze period finishing, they can still move, however there would be a prorata cost involved depending on how many years of the freeze had been served. PS: Another question, does this new EBA ,if ratified ,meet or exceed the requirements of the new interim Legislation? If not ,why not? Aren't you selling youself short then ,by signing this? All you have to do is sit on your hands for a few months and the Management would be forced to offer better to satisfy the new legislation, would they not?. |
max autobrakes, I think you can rest asurred that the proposed Jetstar EBA meets and exceeds ALL of the requirements of the proposed new legislation.
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Fokker,
You and your mates trying to give JQ pilots an economics 101 lesson on your company website are laughable in your naivety. The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Fancy bringing that bull**** to an EBA vote. (You better vote yes because the WORLD is going to go into recession. ) Give me a break. Fly aeroplanes to the best of your ability because your Economics 101 skills let you down. |
Jake you are are gutless wonder !
You hide behind your non de plume here on pprune. If you have anything to do with the Jetstar EBA you would be a Jetstar pilot and have access to the the Jetstar webgroup.If that is the case why don't you air your views where it matters and not on this public forum. The guy you are denigrating at least has the balls to stand behind what he say's , unlike you. Oh and by the way, this forum is not as anonymous as you or Pete Conrad thinks.:oh: |
Maui,
Not sure what your getting at but I flew with both and neither Westwood or Cant held "senior office in the standards or training departments" In the first case no way!:E They were both Presidents of AIPA, Westwood the first [founding] president. |
Just so that there is no doubt as to AIPA’s history here, these are some extracts from transcripts during the AIRC hearings in 2007.
“.. The transfer of flying to Jetstar required a protection of the flying for mainline pilots.” “147. Despite this, and the best efforts of Captain Woods in oral evidence to paint himself as more pragmatic than his predecessor, AIPA's actions have shown more hostility towards Jetstar under his stewardship. This is especially so in the context of Jetstar's emergence into international services. The following actions of AIPA under Captain Woods' leadership speak volumes for AIPA's hostility against Jetstar and its emergence into international RPTAS: 3 March 2006 – AIPA wrote a letter of demand requiring undertakings that would prevent anyone apart from Qantas Mainline pilots doing the flying on EBA7 rates, Q24. Note that at [51] of Captain Wheeler's statement he gave evidence that Jetstar cannot afford to pay its pilots the same salaries and conditions as Qantas mainline pilots. Captain Woods agreed with this (6273); 8 March 2006 – AIPA instituted Federal Court litigation (VI 251 of 2006), seeking various orders, including a permanent injunction to stop Jetstar having the use of the A330's (AFAP 51). The clear effect of that would be to prevent or seriously disrupt Jetstar's international services, as the A330's are an interim fleet pending future arrival of B787's (Qantas 3 para 32). Jetstar would have to try to find alternative aircraft from somewhere else in the meantime. 8 March 2006 – AIPA attempted to intervene in Commission proceedings before Raffaelli C to oppose Jetstar's application to vary the 2005 EBA (the 'wide bodied amendment') (Qantas 25). AIPA made serious allegations against Jetstar of coercing pilots into voting in favour of the amendments. (Qantas 25 PN9). AIPA has produced no evidence of this. The amendment had 73.1% support of Jetstar pilots (Qantas 3 para 110). Captain Woods acknowledged that this variation was 'an essential precondition' to Jetstar being able to engage in international RPTS (6177). Yet AIPA tried to stop it in its tracks! 27 April 2006 – Captain Woods sent an email to the Jetstar Pilots Council that AIPA had just been made aware of Jetstar being able to directly recruit captains to command the A330 International aircraft. He said that since he was at the IFALPA Conference in Istanbul, 'AIPA will do what it can to try and persuade IFALPA to support, if necessary, an international recruiting ban on Jetstar' (Qantas 26). Captain Woods sought to justify this ban by reference to AIPA 'upholding the legislation of this nation' (6024). When asked to elaborate he stated: 'I believe there is some legislative basis for that which would arguably – it's not clear, but as I understand it, an employer may seek government approval to hire, lets say pilots from – who are non Australian. For whatever reason, the government may choose to accept or reject that application, what AIPA was seeking to do was encourage the government to reject any such application' (6210). In 2006, AIPA wrote to CASA with a view to slowing down any assessment process for Jetstar ETOP's permit application. Again, this permit was essential for it to be able to operate the Honolulu service in an efficient way. The permit was granted after two months. AIPA's position was that it should have been 12 months (PN6253 to 6264).” PN816 The so-called group opportunity list is a proposal that freezes the seniority of existing QAL pilots. This means that for many years no one from regional airlines has any realistic chance of successfully bidding for a vacancy within QAL. Today the Dash 8 captain who has 15 years of seniority at Eastern and wants to take up a first officer position with QAL in a B737, he has no chance. A second officer at QAL with two years' seniority there has bidding rights ahead of the Eastern captain. On the other hand QAL pilots would be able to access opportunity within the regional airlines, such as Jetstar, which are growing fast and therefore creating lots of new jobs. We need to steer clear of this group and the demonstrated agenda it's following. Voting YES for this EBA will send a message that we will manage our own future.:ok: |
Led,
You have done yourself and your credibility great damage. Like a number of interested people, I too have a copy of the AIRC transcripts you refer to above and without exception the quotes you have pasted are answers to questions put to Captain Woods by the Lawyers of Qantas and AFAP. Anyone familiar with judicial process will know that AIPA's Lawyers and/or the Judge will ask similar questions in the alternative to establish the full story. That the Judge and subsequently the full bench of the AIRC decided to award AIPA constitutional coverage of Jetstar pilots means that the Commission was not persuaded by the attempts of the Qantas and AFAP lawyers to paint Woods and AIPA in a poor light. Just the opposite I recall, the Judge said Woods would fight just as hard for Jetstar as he does for Qantas. Unlike you my friend, it seems AIPA's President is an honest forthright man who calls it as it is. Shame you don’t have his ability to see the big picture and tell it without fear or favour. Care for a piece of gingerbread?:ooh: |
Hardly,
The said eco's 101 lesson on webgroups/JPC is as spineless as it comes. Scaremongering fellow workers about doom and gloom to sway their vote is hardly having a set of balls. It is a cheap shot to the not so savvy economically minded. That is plain and simple. It cant be dressed up. Especially considering it is coming from one the first to run to AJ (and drum up support) for an AWA after the EBA4 went down the first time. Here's crossing fingers for a second time. Maybe they will hear properly this time. |
Well GB, you can't deny what was said in the AIRC - or are you saying the transcripts are wrong too. I believe the various letters, emails and comments refered to are absolutely correct.
By implication you are suggesting that I am not honest or forthright - stick to the argument, not the man. |
And
GB is quite correct and he isn’t saying the transcripts are wrong, Led, just that they weren’t very convincing. Obviously the judge didn’t find the argument by QF/Jet* management very convincing at all by virtue of the fact that he found in favour of AIPA. Nor did the next judge who upheld the previous ruling under appeal from QF/Jet*.
Once again Led, “What is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your ‘previous post’ dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.”If you can’t answer this I can only conclude YOU are not being up-front with your motives. Nuf. |
Led,
If you print out the transcripts of the Ivan Milat trial you might find this little gem: "There is no way Ivan killed those people, it is just not in him, he is a kind gentle, caring, person" If that is in the transcript, it must be right because it is written, right? yes quick they have to set him free!!!!! Never mind that the quote could be from his Mum :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: |
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