Not only are genex's comments complete fabrications (if not lies), the statement about an aircraft not making money because of "AIPA's demands" shows his ignorance to real economics.


He/she is Bulls&*t artist, pure and simple.

Hey Genex! Bikes provide good structure and reef forming areas when dumped in the sea, very useful to fish!! Ive seen it first hand!

G'day genex,

Keep up the excellent posts.

As an obvious management stooge/wannabe/brown nose, your posts full of blatant lies and half arsed arguments are quite convincing.

Convincing, in that any thinking line pilot should realise that if management see AIPA as such a threat, perhaps they better join.

Beats any roadshow :ok:

Yawn.........time for bed children. You've had a big day Jumping to conclusions, Running down dead end tracks, Plastering over cracks in your own arguments and Making your own bed so you can lie in it. (Gee I'm good!).

Look, I've been flying a long time all over the world. I honestly think that the B777 was what God had in mind when He invented flying. I have shared skies with many of you and cockpits with some. I am neither a fool nor an ogre.BUt I have sen a lot of this before.

I am simply, in the nicest CRM way....sharing some thoughts about how Qantas might best meet the challenges ahead. Of those thoughts some are no doubt wrong or mis-guided. My joy is in the forum, not getting my own way. I only ask that AIPA take itself with the same dash of salt and remember that much as we think that we know it all in the cockpit (as we should!)....outside of it there are competing ideas. I have lived in worlds where jobs faded like snow in the sun and it is not fun. Afterwards is too late that's all I'm trying to say.

Safe flying. It has been a long day and new challenges will come tomorrow. Chill.

genex;

simple yes or no answer, are you Jetstar management?

Genex!

And Simple question do you agree that bicyles on the sea bed can make fantastic artificial reefs for fish? Very very beneficial! I think its called a symbiotic relationship, probably a word you dont know being in management!
Either way Im heading out for another fishing day tomorrow! Wish me luck! Hopefully I dont catch too many bikes! But lots of fish! Well I always do anyway! hehe!:E

facts:

-this revote includes awa's (ie: those whom in which the previous vote did not apply to)

- the offer that is being revoted applies to captains (good bonuses) and cfo's (doubling their pay)(those who the majority were under eba's)

- this eba is intended to lock pilots in for 5 years, underpaid, in the biggest pilot shortage this country has seen.

- the conditions offered will not compete aginst rival carriers when 'competing' for fo's. hence no new pilots.

- no increase for training captains despite dealing with guys with less and less experience.

- a management bonus, not a performance bonus. which means u will get less if the comapny is not performing and more if the company is performing despite rocking up and doing the same job every day.

- u will still pay for your jepps on the a320

- u will still pay for your medical.

To those captains who want their 20g this winter: DO NOT VOTE THIS IN.

the jpa is a joke, let's get some proper representation and get it sorted, for the long term.

Thankyou, finally someone post some info about the "offer" rather than a slanging match AFAP..AIPA... blah blah blah. Post are more interesting when they can keep on track.

Libs to agree to abolish AWA's
 

Don't vote too soon .... the libs have just announced they got it wrong on AWA's ..... so will be voting in the senate to abolish them ....

Hockey - "I don't think many ministers in cabinet were aware that you could be worse off under Work Choices and that you could actually have certain conditions taken away without compensation," .... really!

So just wait ...... any new agreement won't allow for AWA's.

Just a heads up for the nimrods negotiating the "New Deal "that was never to be ,"Take it or leave it, this is as good as it's going to get", you know the one!,
just make sure your new contract abides by the new Award rules and it's 10 mandatory provisions, if not ,demand them, you're entitled to them .

P.S. any JetStar F/O had better ask some questions reference what the new deal with Direct entry Captains is! Wouldn't want your 2 years to command to slip away now would you.:ooh:

Well Gee Wizz, AIPA's been around since the early 80's and 'till recently could legally only look after Mainline pilots, that might explain why they couldn't look after other group pilot problems in the Qantas juggernaught.

Probably just as well they couldn't,either, considering the simpering ,syncophantic would be's that could be, that were acting very much like JPC doppleganger's back then.

Tell me genex, this AIPA mob you're so keen to cane, aren't they the Union representing the pilots of an airline that announced how many $10's of millions profit?
Just how much profit would JetStar make if you stripped out all the cross subsidisation?

I think everyone on this websight is of the opinion, "A fair days pay for a fair day's work", the basis of nearly 110 years of industrial policy in this country ,until little jackboot Johnny got carried away with his WorkChoices Perestroika.

Yes of course Speeedy. AIPA's angle will ensure more pilot's earning more money...

What fantasy land do you live in...

AIPA (and all unions) are about more money for some but FEWER job ops for overall.

PAF - not fantasy-land. Reality-land is that there is a severe pilot shortage and thus we can pursue real pay rises & improvements in Terms and Conditions without causing our peers to miss out on jobs and career development.

AIPA's priorities are (and have always been):-
1. Maintain existing jobs & strive to increase jobs,
2. Maintain existing T's & C's & strive to improve them.

Nice Dream Going Boeing, but not grounded in reality. The higher you price a product (including labour) the lower the demand for that product.

Sure, a shortage shifts the demand curve to the right, but the union driving conditions above the market rate decreases demand.

To take things to an extreme to prove a point: if the union managed to get an EBA up that caused all pilots will be paid $400,000 , do you think that there would be more jobs than if an EBA got up that all pilots will be paid $100,000 ?

This is why I have insisted that Unions are for the domain of the selfish. Looking after themselves. I'm all for people looking after themselves, but let's not go down this path of trying to put forward the illusion that the union pushing for higher T&C's / Pay creates more jobs. It's simply illogical.

Just admit that during a shortage the union can push for higher pay and new jobs will still be created (well depending on the level on the increase!) - but not as many jobs that would have been created otherwise.

What you have argued is that we could increase the price of Airline Tickets and their would be no effect on the number of ticket sales. If that's the case then you are a genius and should be in management - because what that means is that QF could simply increase ticket prices and increase profit.

So PAF, if we all accept a wage of $50K there will be such demand for air travel (we'll ignore the FACT that pilots wages are virtually invisible in an airline ticket) that even you might get a gig, is that the theory????

If you only ever believe one thing I say, please believe this: stay where you are, you just won't make it in the real world.

I just love it when a protected species public servant lectures us all about unions!

Hang on a sec though PAF, you're starting from a position with a pretty big straw man and some ill defined boundaries on top of that. First of all, who said that AIPA is driving for conditions above the 'market rate'. QF IS the market for 744 drivers and they were the market for A330 drivers, etc until J* blinked. Now the 'market' is whatever can be negotiated.

You of all people should understand the symbiotic relationship between cost and demand. Why doesn't that apply to pilots as well?

Keg: You make a reasonable point claiming QANTAS to be a Monopsony, however I don't think that applies given the recruiting of overseas airlines. Pilot's are upward and mobile enough to accept a job overseas. If you don't wish to - that's a financial decision you make.

Speedy: Ahhh.. yet another man who on ANZAC day will be yelling "You're all public servants, you bunch of protected species." Let me guess, you respect WWII vets but no-one else right?

Speeedy, If you need to join a union you've admitted you can't survive in the real world alone anyway. Don't lecture me on survival when you need a group of socialists to state your case for you! If you want a union to represent you that's fine - but don't lecture others that they "won't survive in the 'real world'". You get by in the real world by paying other people to deal with it. You don't deal with the real world, you outsource it. Just because you can't deal with what you refer to as the real world doesn't mean others can't.

You're only dealing with the real world at PPRuNe over the last 2 years of your membership appears to be slagging off JetStar. For someone with 11,000 hours there is only one reason why you would do that - trying to convince others below you not to accept jobs they are happy with because you fear it will have an effect on your salary. Is that the real world? Try to bully people into not accepting jobs they aspire to because you feel it may effect the nest you've created?

Real World indeed. I've got your number pegged. Join a union and let them strike the case for your pay rise whilst trying to intimidate those coming through the system to not accept any job you think may effect your position.
(increase your worth by ensuring others can't do your job)

If you think ADF or APS employees are "protected from the real world" then half your salary and apply for a job my friend!

Geez PAFie, I thought you were going to go with something like this!

:E

Pass a Frozo,

So do you think that we should all take 50% pay cuts and pay for a job? Will that attract people of intelligence and integrity to the industry? Will that solve the pilot shortage?

No way! Unions are here to establish a line in the sand that allows new aspiring pilots something to reach for.

By simply selling out, both the airline managers as well as the pilots themselves are destroying the talent pool to draw upon in the future. An airline association and its membership can be one of the most useful resources for an employer. It's when things get out of balance, as has happened in Oz recently, that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry.

So from my reading of PAF's worldview:

Any one who is a member of a union is a rabid socialist - does that include, say, the doctors associations? Or surgeons associations who look after there members by recommending higher fees? Unions are meant to maximise the "profits" of their members ...... nothing to do with socialism. Even companies are members of associations to represent them JOINTLY in various aspects of their business .... this is the way the REAL world works.

As for moving the demand curve down because pilots want a higher salary - and result in a loss of jobs - doing the math - if a two crew pilot pulls, say $400/hour (generous?), and the average cost of flying say a 737 is say $16,000 an hour (low I'd guess), for a total of $16,400 ..... a 10% pilot payrise would take total costs to $16,440 ... a 0.24% increase! You'd be lucky to lose 0.24% of customers. Should we take a 10% pay cut to get 0.24% more customers. I'd say not .....

So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism.

Maybe some of us realise that we don't have the time, resources or inclination to individually negotiate our T&Cs.

Maybe some of us realise that the chaos caused by individual contracts would hasten the race to the bottom, compromise standards etc etc.

I would have thought that joining a union would have been the smart way to deal with the real world. (BTW have you ever been there?)

Have you ever worked for wages? Unless you left school and walked straight into a management gig or owned your own business, I can just about guarantee that your remuneration level and T&Cs have been, directly or indirectly, been bettered at some stage by a union. Even the RAAF, which has to compete with the airlines to retain their employees. That is, YOUR salary is affected by how well AIPA, AFAP etc can negotiate.

Are you happy to accept that money?

Keg :D

PAF,

Don't you dare bring up ANZAC's in a discussion about wages and conditions you fool! :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Making Machiavelli blush
 

Nicely put Stevie g. The effect of pilot wages on a companies’ bottom line is tiny.

PAF, you obviously haven’t dealt with any Airline management or the Industrial consultants such as Oldmeadow that they retain. (Half ya luck!) These guys do sh%t that would make Machiavelli blush. I’m not ashamed to admit that they would screw me royally if I tried to negotiate an individual contract and I’d be stupid to try. I fly aeroplanes. I don’t have a degree in Industrial Relations and have no inclination to get one. I don’t even WANT to think the way these guys do. To have a Union or Association negotiate my terms and conditions on my (and my colleagues’) behalf makes good sense and doesn’t make me a rabid Communist.

And please, there is no link between getting a Union to negotiate your T & C’s and disrespecting the ANZACS. What a lame link to make.

PS: Good luck when you leave the ADF (Best if you don’t) and try to negotiate your own contract with these guys. Believe me you’ll need it because they’ll see you coming.

Nuthinondaclock.

Higgins,

". . . that we see a decline in standards throughout the industry."
Surely you would agree that a decline in standards is something the regulator must address. Dont you really mean that we have seen a ". . . decrease in applicant experience levels historically found in the Australian airline industry". The two issues are very different, the latter being a direct result of the boom occuring in the airline industry downunder. Australia has yet to lose a passanger in an airliner jet despite almost a decade of "declining standards". Even with the "decrease in experience levels", Australia STILL has some of the highest experience requirments in the industry.

Stevie G,

Your little example of how pilots are apparently providing thier skillset to their employer for free has little to do with the reality of the business world. Airlines are known to remove magazines from aircraft to save a poofteenth of a cent per seat mile but you seem to think that reducing the wages bill by tens of millions of dollars per year is somehow not worth consideration?

"So all in all, in a capitalist system where supply and demand are key, when supply of pilots is down and demand is up ..... their price should rise .... unless you don't believe in capitalism."

I believe in capitalism very much. But you appear to be a little confused. Your last sentence appears to indicate that you understand the dynamics of supply and demand, the very core of capitalism. And yet the bulk of your post is centred around support for an organization designed specifically to protect you from the vagaries of these market forces and to provide impediments to true market capitalism.

Holic and nothingondaclock,

Market capitalism does not mean to suggest a new era of "individual contracts". Airlines operating in genuinely free labor markets, where market forces are virtually the only driving force behind pilot salaries, still generally use one contract for all similar piloting positions. I dont recall hearing of Jetblue pilots all scrambling to sign up to 3000 different employment contracts, for example.

Speeedy,

The ANZAC day Analogy is this: I am in the military. I usually head out for a drink on ANZAC day. You think my colleagues and I are "protect species, public servants." I know I'll be able to identify you on ANZAC day when out because you'll be the one telling me what you think.

Stevie G,

You are incorrect. It depends on the price elasticity of demand for airline travel. Using you analogy why don't QF just increase the ticket prices by the amount you suggest should be passed on to the crew and pocket the money themselves. IT doesn't

Professor:

Higgins is like most of the hypocritical union sycophants. Cry "Market Forces! Market Forces! when asking for a pay rise then cry unfair if wages go down.

Nuthinondaclock:

If I'm living in a "protected paradise" on great wages, WHY DIDN'T YOU JOIN? Or if you were in why did you leave? If it's so wonderful on my side of the fence why didn't you walk into my paddock? Take responsibility for you life decisions and stop trying to feather you pocket and wallet at the expense of jobs for others.

Again, if you can just "raise" wages and raise ticket prices to pay for it with no financial loss why don't QF just raise the ticket prices and increase their profit?? Answer that one.

PAF, we all thought you might go into retirement with Little Johnny Howard, along with your pseudo-intellectual ramblings about market forces and economics.

There is a very old business principle involved in these matters called "where you stand is where you sit." Negotiations are just that - negotiations where each side basically tests its market power against its expectations. Assuming there is an overlap of best case/ worst case expectations you end up with a deal. If there is no overlap then no deal.

To make pronouncements, as you continually do, about who has a moral or economic claim to success is both irrelevant and misleading. It's like saying that India should win all cricket matches against Australia because Australia has a population of 20 million and India has a population of one billion (I won't argue the statistics of that because my argument is a little weak, but you will never pick why).

A negotiation is simply a contest. There is no logical reason that profits or wages should be any particular fixed share of revenue at all.

Here's a hint: Get rid of those self improvement books you seem to be reading and get a copy of "Getting to Yes" which is about negotiation.

On a further note, you didn't get a degree from ANU did you? If so, I'm ashamed.

Sunfish,

Unions drive up wages for their members at the cost of employment opportunities for others and at an overall loss to the economy.

Many around these parts seem to live in this fantasy land that you can drive up wages and have no effect what-so-ever on the level of employment.

The fact is that unionists are out to feather their own nest at the expense of others. I'd rather people would just admit it and say "Yes, I'm looking for the most money for me at the expense of jobs - but so what" rather than get all offended as if their prime motivator was the good of all. :D

You should only be ashamed if you were awarded a B.A. instead of a real degree :p

Hi Prof,

I neither "believe" in capitalism, socialism, communism or polymorphism!

My point is that in our current society we have, and should use, our freedom of association because that's the way the system works AND in all avenues in life actors will come together to get outcomes in their best interest.

And that's what I am suggesting pilots (and any other group in life) should do. The sooner the greater pilot body realise they need to act TOGETHER the sooner the group as a whole will be better off ... for sure some will be worse of ... some better off ... it may cause airlines to grow more slowly because of scary higher salaries ... too bad ..... since when has growth been the only mantra.

Nuff of my little rage. ..... ps didn't mention anything about pilots working for free ...... ?????

Sorry for any thread drift guys but think some of this is relevant

Today's topic:

ADF pilots are paid less than half of airline pilot wages due to the control of supply by a monopoly employer, legislation which places severe restraint of trade on ADF pilots and; lack of access to effective collective bargaining.

Discuss.

What I'd like to know Sunfish, is does PAF sit around reading PPRUNE during work hours at taxpayers expense? :confused:

We've been hearing about the coming pilot shortage for years. It finally has arrived. We are now in demand.
Now is the time to sign off on a very very average deal.
When the wheel turns and we have a surplus of pilots, big business will feel sorry for us and thank us and give us a big increase.
That's how the world works.

One small leap for (a) man but a massive leap was made by PAF
 

PAF,

I think you better read my post again because at no point did I say anything about you living in a “protected paradise”. Those are your words not mine. I also never said I thought you were on great wages. (Seriously, how did you come to this conclusion, and a few others, from what I actually wrote?) I’m quite happy where I am and have no desire to join you in the ADF. Because you bought it up I’m also very happy with the life decisions I’ve made. What I did say is that the area of negotiation with Airline management and consultants such as Oldmeadow is one you have not been exposed to in much the same way as I have no idea about how the ADF’s infrastructure works. It’s not being critical of you saying this, you just haven’t experienced it yet where I have. My other point was that I disagree with your criticism of people using Unions to negotiate T & C’s with these people. I believe it would be foolish to not use the people who are qualified and experienced in these matters and to go it on your own would be at your peril. Study history and look at the conditions that existed post WW2 in airlines before pilots became unified.

Within reasonable terms I disagree with your statement that the number of jobs is dictated by the wage a pilot is paid. The market dictates the number of aircraft required and the airline has to crew them. I think you’re seriously overstating our influence if you think our wage affects how many aeroplanes an airline flies between two places. I haven’t seen any outrageous wage claims being made by anyone that would seriously even show on an airline’s bottom line. To answer your last question the price an airline asks for a ticket is certainly not dictated by a pilot’s wage. Airlines ask the highest price they think they can on any flight with a balance always being made between this and how many people will buy them. It seems like a bit of a black art to me but they have whole departments that deal with this ‘Yield Management’. At the end of the day airline management is trying to maximise its profits and managers are paid obscene bonuses to achieve this. Even when an airline is making record profits, like Qantas is, they will still try to reduce their staff wages as much as possible. That’s their job. The thing is most of us expect this (it really is an adversarial position between airlines and staff when it comes to T & C’s) and that’s why we choose to negotiate together as a group to achieve the best result for us all.

Back to the original subject of the thread I really hope the Group Opportunity List can eventuate in the Qantas Group soon to secure a future for ALL Qantas Group pilots. It can ONLY be a good thing and anyone saying otherwise is spreading misinformation. There’s always a few di%^heads in any group that will write stupid crap on forums. IGNORE THEM! They certainly don’t reflect the opinions of the greater majority of guys I fly with. Good luck to the Jetstar guys with their EBA vote. I hope you can at the least get the better terms and conditions you deserve but will be much happier if the offer is voted down and we can finally get a unified pilot group in this country. It can only be a good thing for ALL of us.

Nuthinondaclock.

Genex has disappeared out of the equation hasn't he? :E

Judging by his absence, I guess he/she anwered my question. He/she is JQ management.

Sorry...was busy in the real world.

Couldn't manage my way out of a paper bag if that helps.

Well I guess that confirms that you are indeed management in the QF group.

Somebody by that person a beer!!! Classic comment there speeeedy, luv ya work

Speedy...it took me 15 seconds of typing and 50 minutes of waiting for you to show exactly how predictable....and wrong....you are. Like shooting fish in a barrel....but still fun.

fish and bikes, fish and barrels....
Someones fishing for something.
Back on topic, When does Crayfish season start?


I wanna be a pilot when I grow up.

Have to agree with Nuth.... here.
PAF's argument is based on the overriding assumption that lower wages means more jobs.
Pilot wages at best are only a very minor factor and have little sway on the recruitment requirements of any airline or even the ADF.
If the ADF were to decrease the salaries of pilots would they employ more?
No, because they would still not be able to afford more aircraft, equipment, training, houses, fuel and staff to support them with the very small savings in salaries.
Airlines are no different.
Civilian airline crews have done all the hard yards themselves, whether it was working three shifts to pay for their licenses and qualifications or getting free training and doing their military service, placing their life on the line at half pay for the defense of their country.
Hopefully when/if you get here PAF you will realize that you are a professional, highly trained valuable resource who deserves to be well compensated for the services you are capable of providing.
Think a bit more about your own future before you attempt to shoot down those of us who are fighting to ensure that you and others have an opportunity to be rewarded adequately for your chosen profession.
Meanwhile, good luck and thanks for the job that you do. :ok: