Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Well, the troops have finally spoken. Let's see how AIPA and the AFAP will step up to the plate. I am a little excited but not holding my breath. This I feel is the olive branch AIPA are looking for. Well?? Lets have a look at your cards AIPA. Jetstar will be pi$$ed big time and if the pilot body are back doored by AIPA now, I think you could probably close the gate on Qantas group pilots having a united front for a very very long time..
Do you really think Jetstar will be devastated at this result???? I don't think so. While obviously disappointed, a nearly split decision tells the old jetstar bean counters that what they offered is nearly on the mark. Lets be honest they were only 6% off if the result here is true. I actually find it very sad to see so many people voted yes. Here we are in the biggest pilot pro work scenario for years and for some reason 44% still thought what was offered was good enough. This result has not helped the pilot group very much in terms of new negotiations. At virgin the first EBA was voted down 87% and the company came back with very little, few grey promises (i.e long haul) and a lot of scare (if this it voted down again).... That was enough to turn almost 40% of the pilot group. I think the Jetstar beans will be licking their chops thinking jesus we really don't have to offer much more do we. Shame there was not a more united result. Good luck with round 2.
Last edited by SilverSleuth; 31st Jan 2008 at 02:46.
I wouldn't hold my breath people. Only 7% needs to be turned for it to get up. We went from 87% NO to scraping through by 3% in the blink of an eye, the veiled threat of no command upgrades being the turning point. With your expansion the company will no doubt try a similar tactic. Be strong people, it will be your last opportunity, we blew ours!!!!!!
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From what I had explained to me it seemed to be quite a fair offer, more $$$ for no more work, plus a bit more $$ for some productive things. PLus some more days off.
Maybe I missed something
SQ
Maybe I missed something
SQ
Thread Starter
Silver Sleuth
As I posted on a previous thread, I voted NO. Reading you post saying that you find it sad seeing so many voted yes, i'll put some perspective on it.
I would of liked a resounding NO figure, but a NO is a NO. The dudes sitting in the back seat of an A330 earning sweet f/a would of seen a massive increase compared to what they are earning 'if' this EBA had of been voted up. And i guess quite a few possibly voted for that, and i don't blame anyone for doing that. Some A330 skippers would of seen a fairly decent increase as well, hence a yes vote as well.
Am I glad this got voted down? You betcha. But as Rostov has said, here is your mandate AIPA/AFAP. Here is the extra time you have now wanted. IW and LC NEED to get their heads together, and educate the pilot body, and get the runs on the board that they so desperately want with the JQ group. I swear, if the next round of EBA talks come around (be it this year or whenever) and we haven't progressed significantly, you will lose any confidence in the union movement from a majority of crew.
"You have Control"
PS.. Squawk6969, yep the deal wasn't too bad. Certainly heading in the right direction, BUT, they sold out the F/O's to an extent using command opportunity as the carrot, and hey presto, they have just taken on a heap of DEC and they are openly & actively recruiting for more DEC's, so guys WONT be upgraded as quick as what they think. The big allocation of upgrades that were announced 5 months ago, the majority haven't even started the training, and would of not been eligible for the bonus payment later on, as they would not be checked to line as skippers by April 1, which left a bad taste to those it affected, along with having the 75% Command Training pay negotiated away as well as a double whammy.
As I posted on a previous thread, I voted NO. Reading you post saying that you find it sad seeing so many voted yes, i'll put some perspective on it.
I would of liked a resounding NO figure, but a NO is a NO. The dudes sitting in the back seat of an A330 earning sweet f/a would of seen a massive increase compared to what they are earning 'if' this EBA had of been voted up. And i guess quite a few possibly voted for that, and i don't blame anyone for doing that. Some A330 skippers would of seen a fairly decent increase as well, hence a yes vote as well.
Am I glad this got voted down? You betcha. But as Rostov has said, here is your mandate AIPA/AFAP. Here is the extra time you have now wanted. IW and LC NEED to get their heads together, and educate the pilot body, and get the runs on the board that they so desperately want with the JQ group. I swear, if the next round of EBA talks come around (be it this year or whenever) and we haven't progressed significantly, you will lose any confidence in the union movement from a majority of crew.
"You have Control"
PS.. Squawk6969, yep the deal wasn't too bad. Certainly heading in the right direction, BUT, they sold out the F/O's to an extent using command opportunity as the carrot, and hey presto, they have just taken on a heap of DEC and they are openly & actively recruiting for more DEC's, so guys WONT be upgraded as quick as what they think. The big allocation of upgrades that were announced 5 months ago, the majority haven't even started the training, and would of not been eligible for the bonus payment later on, as they would not be checked to line as skippers by April 1, which left a bad taste to those it affected, along with having the 75% Command Training pay negotiated away as well as a double whammy.
Last edited by Flava Saver; 31st Jan 2008 at 03:14.
Grandpa Aerotart
Well a democratic result but I think all you No voters experiencing a warm and fuzzy are about to be dealt a rude shock.
GD/AJ will also be experiencing a warm and fuzzy because with your present EBA not due to expire until Sept this year they can now delay it as long as they like after that...having opened negotiations early and been rejected by the pilot body. You guys and girls who voted No are taking a big punt on the state of the economy/pilot shortage in 18 months...I wish you luck.
They are now free to offer individual contracts to whomever they need to crew whatever expansion actually happens before the 'US Cold' gives Asia/Australia the flu and gives J* a reprieve from the 'pilot shortage'. Much better for the bottom line to give 100 pilots a payrise than 600-800.
You don't think there won't/can't be individual contracts do you? They existed before Work Choices and they will exist after work choices. The J* T&Cs are so far above any means testing/protections a Labor, or any Govt, might impose that they just won't care in the least about J* offering individual contracts to prospective employees on T&Cs equal to or greater than the EBA just voted down.
The VB pilots faced an entirely different economic/industry outlook 12+ months ago.
I feel you have let emotions stop you taking a wider view and voting strategically as a result of that wider view. What % of J* pilots are too young to remember a recession?
About 56% apparently.
Chances of AIPA/AFAP getting together for a group hug?
Zero.
Chances of either group achieving a better result if the world is in recession in 18 months time?
Zero.
Chances of the world being in recession in 18 months time?
I would have said better than 50%.
I think this vote will be seen eventually, when AIPA/AFAP fail to deliver on their rhetoric, as the death of any chance for pilot unity in Australia.
GD/AJ will also be experiencing a warm and fuzzy because with your present EBA not due to expire until Sept this year they can now delay it as long as they like after that...having opened negotiations early and been rejected by the pilot body. You guys and girls who voted No are taking a big punt on the state of the economy/pilot shortage in 18 months...I wish you luck.
They are now free to offer individual contracts to whomever they need to crew whatever expansion actually happens before the 'US Cold' gives Asia/Australia the flu and gives J* a reprieve from the 'pilot shortage'. Much better for the bottom line to give 100 pilots a payrise than 600-800.
You don't think there won't/can't be individual contracts do you? They existed before Work Choices and they will exist after work choices. The J* T&Cs are so far above any means testing/protections a Labor, or any Govt, might impose that they just won't care in the least about J* offering individual contracts to prospective employees on T&Cs equal to or greater than the EBA just voted down.
The VB pilots faced an entirely different economic/industry outlook 12+ months ago.
I feel you have let emotions stop you taking a wider view and voting strategically as a result of that wider view. What % of J* pilots are too young to remember a recession?
About 56% apparently.
Chances of AIPA/AFAP getting together for a group hug?
Zero.
Chances of either group achieving a better result if the world is in recession in 18 months time?
Zero.
Chances of the world being in recession in 18 months time?
I would have said better than 50%.
I think this vote will be seen eventually, when AIPA/AFAP fail to deliver on their rhetoric, as the death of any chance for pilot unity in Australia.
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I'm with ya chumba.
been trying to pass on the message to the young ones but I guess you gotta experience the highs and lows of life yourself.
Good luck all, I think you might need it.
been trying to pass on the message to the young ones but I guess you gotta experience the highs and lows of life yourself.
Good luck all, I think you might need it.
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The Company stated that if this gets voted down then there would be no more negotiations until the current EBA expires. If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation. I for one want to see what the legislation proposes and yes the AIPA and AFAP information did influence my decision to vote no.
Grandpa Aerotart
If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation.
Any legislative efforts designed to roll back Work Choices will not effect in any way pilots, or any employee for that matter, on the T&Cs the current J* EBA provides. They will be aimed at that segment of society that were on minimum wages that truly were victims of work choices....Labor's heartland.
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Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"
I do think that those of you who voted it down may have not only shot yourselves in the foot but taken your co-workers and shot their feet also.
What does the company do and those who voted for it do now. Can a Yes voter go to AJ and say....I voted for it, can I sign up, and if down the track we can be more productive and valuable can we look forward to an upward progression?
Many folk do believe that a major part of the Ansett collapse was unsustainable conditions for not much productivity.
Maybe I am way off the mark........
J
I do think that those of you who voted it down may have not only shot yourselves in the foot but taken your co-workers and shot their feet also.
What does the company do and those who voted for it do now. Can a Yes voter go to AJ and say....I voted for it, can I sign up, and if down the track we can be more productive and valuable can we look forward to an upward progression?
Many folk do believe that a major part of the Ansett collapse was unsustainable conditions for not much productivity.
Maybe I am way off the mark........
J
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AIPA persuaded a few swinging voters to effectively ensure a pay cut for all Jetstar pilots for at least a year. This hands extra profit to Jetstar, ensures that some form of inducement outside the EBA will be offered to Direct Entry pilots and/or individual contracts/AWAs will be offered at the rate all pilots would have got if AIPA hadn't interfered. So in what way is the pilot body at Jetstar better off? And one more SARS outbreak or 9/11 or fuel price spike and the next EBA offer will not be as good. However I never did see the document so am just guessing.
I just wouldn't want to be in a position where a bunch of people I don't work with and never will determined my working conditions. And lusted after all the command slots.
Oh well, good luck boys. Hope you really were prepared for what you voted for.
I just wouldn't want to be in a position where a bunch of people I don't work with and never will determined my working conditions. And lusted after all the command slots.
Oh well, good luck boys. Hope you really were prepared for what you voted for.
Thread Starter
Jetstar pilots are ridiculed by many on here for voting yes for accepting previous EBA's, the majority have spoken, and now the outsiders are quick to jump on us again for voting the other way. Jeese this industry makes you laugh. 
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Okay guys good luck with the next battle. Even tho it wasn't an outstanding success like some have said in here, a No is a NO.There is obviously quite a large divided camp amongst the troops but you have to start somewhere.
Little by little they (the head turkey's) have been wittling away T&C's, & so little by little you guys/gals are clawing yr way back, & it hurts them (the turkey's again) to think that it's not all that safe up there afterall!
How many times do we hear, oh yr a pilot, I see, then yr rich I suppose !!!
If only the general flying public really knew !
CW
Little by little they (the head turkey's) have been wittling away T&C's, & so little by little you guys/gals are clawing yr way back, & it hurts them (the turkey's again) to think that it's not all that safe up there afterall!
How many times do we hear, oh yr a pilot, I see, then yr rich I suppose !!!
If only the general flying public really knew !
CW
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Genex, that post was a masterly piece of disinformation... you even worked in the bit about the command slots; even when post after post has been made stating that under a GOAL, no QF pilot will get a command slot before a current Jetstar pilot.
Still, if you say it often enough maybe someone will swallow it.
Jetstar guys, well done.
Still, if you say it often enough maybe someone will swallow it.
Jetstar guys, well done.
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How true Capt Wally.
BTW some CFO's voted no becuase the big picture for FO's was not great. Hopefuly short term pain for long term gain....etc
Shafting the new guys is not the way to go either.
DEC are coming in to the fold and they are looking for more. Hence the quick left seats aren't as many as once thought.
Flava Saver.... your spot on also.....
Hopefully this will push the JPC into action either with or without union help.
NH
BTW some CFO's voted no becuase the big picture for FO's was not great. Hopefuly short term pain for long term gain....etc
Shafting the new guys is not the way to go either.
DEC are coming in to the fold and they are looking for more. Hence the quick left seats aren't as many as once thought.
Flava Saver.... your spot on also.....
Hopefully this will push the JPC into action either with or without union help.
NH
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Top stuff Jetstar pilots for voting it down. Don't listen to the nay sayers. Looking forward to AIPA/AFAP stepping up to assist and get good deals across the board. Good luck with the fight
Shmoo
Shmoo