Personally I feel that the AFAP and AIPA should amalgamate. That would probably solve a lot of the issues, however, I thought that it would be management who decides who flies what aircraft not AIPA. Am I wrong?

Seems AIPA is serious? Here's the drum:

"For the last 3 days AIPA been involved in Roadshows in Brisbane, Adelaide and Melbourne, with Sydney to be held on Friday. Those 3 days have been a great opportunity to talk with Qantas Jetstar and Regional pilots, renew some old acquaintances and make some new ones.

With the re-vote of EBA4 open, the clear message AIPA has been getting from Qantas Jetstar pilots is that the re-vote should not be happening and that a proper, consultative process should be put in place for future negotiations on it. AIPA fully understands this message and shares the concerns that underlie it. Similar concerns formed the basis of AIPA’s decision to advocate a NO vote on EBA4.

In fact, having now considered the Roadshow feedback, responses to our letter urging a NO vote from last Friday (attached) and the importance of bringing together all Qantas Group pilots, AIPA has filed a Notice to Initiate a Bargaining Period on Jetstar and with the Australian Industrial Relations Commission.

In filing the Notice, AIPA has sought to preserve the rights of Jetstar pilots in regard to a proper negotiating process.

Also availoable on the public part of the AIPA website is an audio recording and presentation from the AIPA Roadshows to Jetstar pilots. The recording and presentation can be accessed by the following link: http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/57/Default.aspx

AIPA URGES YOU TO LISTEN TO THE RECORDING AND REVIEW THE PRESENTATION BEFORE VOTING.

It is important to remember that a NO vote for EBA4 is the beginning of a proper negotiating process, and not the end."

Roll on March 4.:ok:

Sorry Led, I cant see a away forward with what you are saying. I've been in QF mainline approaching 6 years now and am still waiting for a right hand seat, ( and yes, it will be the first opportunity in mainline for an fo spot.) I returned from the UK to this gig.
Whilst overseas I saw the advantage of one union, ie BALPA, in trying to advance the benefits for all pilots. This model is exactly what AIPA is trying to implement.
Jetstar will still have its own governing council, as would QF mainline and QF regional, but have the advantage of an umbrella of a overall body, that will hopefully, in time, provide independent negotiators, lawyers, etc,etc just as BALPA operates in the UK.
During all of this, there is no way that the QF mainline com can dictate to you about your future terms and conditions. You are still in the driving seat, but hopefully fully resourced to extract a deal that is great for everyone.

If this doesn't occur of course, I look forward to seeing what contract you have negotiated for me when I'm made redundant from the 76/744 or whatever aircraft type I may be on at the time and told here it is, take it or leave it.:ok:

I'm seriously running out of pearls for you Led Zep
 

You just don’t get it do you Led Zep. If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur. I repeat, the whole point of AIPA representation and a GOAL is to avoid this situation occurring. How many times do you have to be told that AIPA can’t insist where Qantas allocates its 787s? You will do ALL the Jet* flying on any aircraft type (or at least have the first choice to it) before any QF mainline guy will.

I’m surprised that you say,


I agree with the sentiments here (Glad we share a common aim) but you’re heading the other direction. The short term result of voting yes is a handful of cash (a gain) and setting in motion a divide between pilot groups which I fear will be difficult to ever repair, and result in a long term degradation of ALL pilots’ terms and condition in this country. It’s interesting too how you seem worried about long term security of your position and union division. That’s exactly what we’re concerned about. And your solution is to fracture the pilot groups further and vote in a deal which you know will cause further division. Even Fistfokker agrees that a GOAL is a good thing for you LONG term (Though he does have short term reservations). On that subject, Fistfokker, if the GOAL was setup as a Y and thus ensured all current Jet* pilots had first access to Jet* flying where do you see the short term danger for Jet* guys. (Obviously if it wasn’t going to be a Y I agree that it could well be detrimental for you and I would totally understand you not wanting to align with AIPA.)

The AN pilots set up their own association as they had no other available representation and no-one able to cover them. Given the recent history before this (1989) I don’t think there is any similarity to their situation and the threats we face today.

I repeat again, you don’t have time to set up a new association in time to deal with today’s situation. The JPA and AFAP have shown through their actions that they will sell you out to management. AIPA hasn’t. The negative stuff you hear about them is misinformation spread by those from the two previous groups and Jet* management muses. I stress again, get along to a road show or call AIPA, (02) 8307 7777, and speak to someone. Then make your own decision.

The situation Keg referred to of QF and JQ pilots being interleaved on the 787 was ONLY for if QF decides to keep them on 1 AOC. It means that even if this situation was to occur Jet* pilots and Mainline pilots have first access to the same amount of flying as if they were under separate AOC’s i.e. Jet* pilots fly Jet* 787s and QF pilots fly QF 787s. Again, no QF mainline pilot is stealing any Jet* flying or promotional opportunity.

I ask of you again Led Zep, what is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when it’s obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your January 2007 roster.) From what you write I can only be lead to think that you want your promotion at ANY cost. I think you are letting this cloud your judgement here. A GOAL will be a win/win for both groups.

Nuf.

HnH -

I think you miss the point of my argument. The issue is not the fact that we would have a separate council etc etc and would operate under an autonomous umbrella.

The problem lies in what you say "....that will hopefully, in time, provide independent negotiators, lawyers, etc,etc just as BALPA operates in the UK...."

In the short to medium term (which is when this will all come to a head), how can this possibly be independent when the umbrella body is looking after the interests of QF mainline drivers, especially in the event that AIPA QF COM decides to proceed under the basis of Ian Woods scenario and tries to ban 787 flying from everyone except QF mainline. Under any examination, it's unworkable.

BALPA is a truly independent body and a very different creature from AIPA with it's vested interests.

An Australian BALPA equivalent is an ultimate and absolutely desirable aspiration - but would QF AIPA members be prepared now to dismantle their existing organisation and combine with J*, Qlink, Rex, Virgin to start a new "Australian ALPA" body. Somehow, I have my doubts.

OTOH, I reckon the other groups might be ready to consider the option as a way of achieving true solidarity while we still have some good times ahead.

Ah, now I get it. What is your agenda Led? You've been pretty quiet on that so far. However here are a few interesting observations from this thread thus far. You don't pay attention to the totality of statements made by AIPA on Qrewroom. You don't listen to any of the QF drivers on here. You don't listen to the reason of the QF drivers when they talk about how incorrect your views are (seriously, as if the QF drivers could vote for the J* 787 drivers to not fly their own aircraft :rolleyes: ), you actively push disinformation.

In fact, the totality of your comments suggests being a lot closer to the action than an average line driver.

So are you one of the JPA negotiators? Are you a member of AFAP? Captain or F/O? Joined J* when? If you're going to bang on about hidden agendas then you had want to be very sure that you're not pushing one of your own. :rolleyes:

Led, part of Ian Woods comments......

*Should Qantas not wish to agree to the GOAL, I believe, assuming the Company does not reneg for problematic operational, commercial or financial reasons, on its promise to Jetstar pilots that they will operate the first 15 B787's, that it would, nonetheless, be economically cheaper to have all B787's operating under one AOC with one training regime and I believe that the AIPA COM would support the interleaving of 15 Jetstar B787 crews into Mainline 787 operations in the same way it did SH A330 crew? Again B787 allocation to Jetstar or Mainline could then be in accordance with market forces but both Jetstar and Mainline pilots would be on LH EBA 8 salaries.*Should Qantas management not endorse either of the above, I believe the AIPA COM will be required by its membership to take action to have put in place a binding irrevocable agreement that mainline pilots will operate all B787's (other than the 15 B787's that current Qantas management have promised to Jetstar). While this outcome does not, in itself, stop management allocating B787's other than in accordance with market forces, it would stop Qantas group pilots being played off against each other so Qantas management can gloat that they have achieved the world's lowest B787 piloting salaries.

At no time has Ian Woods hinted or suggested that 787 flying would be banned from Jetstar.
Facts are pretty important here....

And yet you won't take the logical first step of having all pilots in the same group come together. :rolleyes: Why is that? What is your agenda in blocking what is the logical first step in a truly industry wide industrial organisation?

If that is the outcome- and I think it's a great outcome- then lets start working towards it. Join AIPA and we've got a great first step. Then you and I can stand side by side and push harder for it. Don't think for a second that there aren't those of us who aren't pushing for it. The response I get from those I know and trust in AIPA is 'one step at a time', 'walk before you run, etc'.

Of course then there are the nay sayers who think that AIPA is out to 'control' the industrial landscape in Australian Aviation and who would view such an overt and public push by AIPA of more evidence as to their deviousness. It can't be had both ways. Either it's good for the industry for all of us to get together or it's not.

So what's it going to be Led? Going to take the first step towards what you reckon is a good thing or are you going to keep pushing your own hidden agenda?

LED, mate have you had a listen to the podcast from AIPA on the JQ website? If not, give it a go. :ok:

Projection
 

From Led Zep,

Total bulls@it. He never said this at all and the only thing he said remotely similar was for the situation of a GOAL and AIPA representation NOT happening AND management trying to isolate QF pilots from the 787. Certainly not a secret agenda. Again, the above situation is what we're trying to prevent here.

To quote myself,

Or maybe Keg’s right and it’s you with the secret agenda. After all it’s you who keeps using the term. There’s a psychological term for that, it’s called projection. PROJECTION.

Nuf.

Sorry, part of my last post was incomplete it should have read:

Nuf,

Sorry, don't understand??????:confused:

Ian Wood IS on record as stating:

Is that selective hearing Condition Lever? Is there more to that quote?

Of course, there always is.

Nuf's statement needed to be corrected though.

The full quote is posted above by HotnHigh.
Couldn't understand how Nuf could be selective in his hearing (reading etc etc)

Seriously Condition? Are you playing politics with semantics? You didn't even read the rest of his quote.

Been biting my tongue for a while now ......

Please .... someone, anyone ... convince me that giving clowns like Led Zep and his mates the opportunity to join AIPA is the best way to go for the current AIPA membership. I'm hoping they aren't indicative of the attitude of the Jetstar pilot group as a whole, but just a vocal minority.

Maybe they do have a hidden agenda.

Maybe they are sitting at their computers wearing aluminium foil hats.

Either way, supposing they did join AIPA, how would we negotiate and reason with people like this? How could we be certain that, as soon as something didn't go their way, there wouldn't be a group of them running off to sign the first AWA they tripped over?

In an ideal world, I'm all for unity. But you can only work with what you are given.

This is one time I'm hoping I can be proven wrong .....

EBD could you please tell us exactly what it is that AIPA has done for you since you joined?:)DD.
Holic,unity is the only way.

Seriously Driving????
That is what he wrote - can you really argue with that????

I am just astounded. This really is a joke.:ugh:

I graduated from pre-school quite some time ago Condition.

It is now clear to me. Emotion aside I think I have the logic down right. Without name calling can someone show me where I’m wrong? This doesn’t affect me. So I can be dispassionate. I would, as an observer though and someone who believes in good quality jobs above all else, sleep better at night if I knew that AIPA and JPA would guarantee the following:

a) AIPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) AIPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Jetstar Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Qantas to join Jetstar would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) AIPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots

I would imagine in return that the Jetstar pilots would agree in like terms to the following:

a) JPA will take no action to diminish the competitiveness of the QF Group against all competitors
b) JPA will take no action to limit the proportion of 787s going to the Qantas Fleet
c) Any pilots willing to resign from Jetstar to join Qantas would be able to and would keep things like full datal seniority, super and long service leave
d) JPA would not oppose an eventual "umbrella union" for pilots

AIPA's roadshows this last week with the JQ guys and gals has been very well received by those who have had the decency to attend (work/time permitting of course), and a LOT of false statements, mis-quoting etc has been clarified by IW & PS.

It is the usual suspects amongst our pilot group who didnt attend, nor have bothered to pick up a phone and GET THE FACTS before voting. Its funny how we as Joe Public take on board Liberal & Labors policies, and make an INFORMED decision at an election. This is no different.

To AIPA, thanks for putting a balanced, mature perspective on the situation to our pilot body.

The under-current amongst ranks is a good NO vote out there due to the fact that management have treated the pilot body through this process, as well as the JPA's lack of communication.

Here's fingers crossed to the Jetstar pilot body, Qantas group, and Australian aviation community that this might unify pilots a bit better, and we get our stuff organised before August, for the benefit of all. :ok:

Best post yet :D:D:D:D

The most recent AIPA supported QF shorthaul EBA achieved:

• The same term as the proposed Jetstar EBA
• The same % Pay rise as the proposed Jetstar EBA
• A similar bonus scheme as the proposed Jetstar EBA
• A loss for some just as the proposed Jetstar EBA

Just how? by encouraging Jetstar pilots to vote NO does AIPA think they can do any better given the QF shorthaul EBA? Will Jetstar pilots be expected to wait 2yrs to achieve an AIPA negotiated result?

AIPA is now saying Jetstar pilots should vote NO because of the 5yr term and "variable" (bonus) remuneration; amongst other reasons. Yet this is exactly what they negotiated for shorthaul.

I support the idea of a global seniority list and coverage under a single union, but to suggest that AIPA can go and negotiate a much better deal for Jetstar pilots than the current offer is simply fanciful.

Just one small point Jetscabster:

QF B737 pilots are in the top quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,

JQ 320 pilots are in the bottom quartile globally when it comes to what they are paid,

Would you would be happy if JQ A320 pilots were in the top quartile and AIPA was able to keep them there despite the most draconian industrial legislation Australia has been for Nye on 100 yrs.

I suspect not. :rolleyes:

Jetscabster (Great username by the way, very appropriate!)

Whilst you are mostly correct in what you say, those percentage increases were on top of a salary significantly higher than the relative Jetstar salary, (i.e. B737 v. A320). I am not talking about what a JQ pilot CAN make by working his arse off and getting lots of overtime, I'm talking about base salary here.

That's what this all about...bridging the gap between the two parties so that neither can be played off against each other. It's a WIN-WIN situation for all concerned.

TL

Just remember...

working more for less is the paradigm at J*(except if you happen to be a little irish fella who needs a booster seat)..Everywhere else will eventually come to realise that there actually is an acute pilot shortage.. and unless terms and conditions meet the mark it is off overseas...At Q we will get done by the likes of BA,RH et al.These guys will sell out the rest, much like GA...Those who follow carry the can whilst they swallow around on the A330 with a quicjkie command... Old stories new names and the game remains the same......:suspect:

This is a classic example of the intellectual dishonesty, ignorance or immaturity that I alluded to in a previous post. Transition Layer has summed up the circumstance perfectly.

Just to re-iterate, those increases were on conditions that are on average 20-30% better than those on offer from J*. Even if J* EBA4 gets voted up J* crew will still will be significantly less than the conditions that QF mainline drivers are on- for the identical job on virtually identical equipment.

QF Insider.....

What the heck has AJ's height to do with anything? And the booster seat? A while ago I flew the beautiful 777-300 which was longer than a 744 and had much bigger engines and was way cooler than anything in the Qantas fleet. Does that make me a better person than poor QFInsider?

There is a pilot shortage. You are correct there. That is why First Officers at JQ can get A320 command in 2-3 years and soon, 787 command, on very decent money. Way sooner than anyone in Qantas. So their earning profile from say 25 to 40 and the options that their 787 command gives them easily outstrip their colleagues who opted for more pay earlier but less over the longer term and a verrrrrry long time not in the left hand seat where any pilot worth the name wants to be.

As for working harder. Are the CAO regs too lax? AIPA has had years to get CASA to change them. Any progress? Why shouldn't pilots work hard? Ask a single mum school teacher or nurse with 2 children what life is like. Or any single mum.

And as for "Off overseas"....simply go. Don't talk about it. Find out what "market" T & C are. I did it, thousands do. Yu might enjoy getting out from the protected umbrella of a Legacy carrier. And you will see lots and lots of 777s, tho as we know, none proudly bearing the rat logo.

Good jobs, commands and growth is the new paradigm Insider. Has been for 20 years now since deregulation. Its what pilots want. Its what the public want and boy do they vote with their feet. The fact that this 20 years is is roughly the same timeframe as the Hermit Kingdom (AIPA) has existed may not be entirely coincidence.

Keg,

Let's talk about dishonesty, ignorance and immaturity.

You left out the most important part of my post.

AIPA is pushing the reasons for Jetstar to vote NO:

1. 5yr term
2. Variable remuneration (ie bonus)

I have a very good friend in QF who has told me these were in the terms of the QF EBA.

Do you not get it! AIPA supports it for QF and then turns to Jetstar pilots and says that is a reason to vote NO. Hypocritical or what?

Also, the overall package for QF seems very similar to the Jetstar package, except that Jetstar is a lower base. I have yet to see any indication of what AIPA or QF colleagues will do to get Jetstar a better deal than the one on offer. Do you honestly think AIPA can walk into Jetstar and get pilots another $50K each? Tell me exactly how they can negotiate so much better?

My friend tells me a QF 737 F/O will earn LESS than a DJ 737 F/O. How has AIPA done such a good job then?

Less than a DJ F/O.

That is why in the shorthaul EBA the F/O rate goes from 59% of capt, to 64% of capt during the life of the EBA. So F/O's actually get 4% a year rather than 3% (sort of fixing the old B-scale).

Besides, if DJ F/O's do get more. AIPA can pull out the old "convergence with Virgin" thing that they had to put up with for years. Only this time I reckon the Company will find themselves on the wrong side of it.:ok:

"My friend tells me", is exactly what's wrong with pilots in Australia. Nobody could be bothered to do any leg work, so rumour becomes fact, and we're all worse off.

Keg - I'll ignore your personal views about me, which are totally incorrect. They are irrelevant to this discussion.

This motherhood stuff from AIPA at the roadshow about how we can all work together is a smokesreen. Their timing is just too cute by halves. AIPA with about 2300 members simply doesn't need 450 JQ pilots to change its’ industrial base. The numbers are just too one sided.

So why are they doing it?

The real motive for AIPA trying to muscle in on JQ pilots representation is to ensure that QF mainline pilots are able to unduly influence and affect future Jetstar flying. Does anyone honestly believe that downtrack, if a majority of QF mainline pilots wanted a course of action, that AIPA COM would risk going against it?

This says it all:-

(From Nuf)

“””……If you go with AIPA you won’t have them fighting for YOUR 787 jobs. That is what your quote in red refers to. No surprise really. Of course if Jet* pilots take the path management is attempting to steer then down AIPA will have to take serious action to protect their members future. It’s if something ISN’T worked out between us that that may occur.….”””

What these people are effectively saying is:- "join our association or stand by to be shafted".

Nuf – you’ve summed it up perfectly and explained what Ian Woods' infamous words on Qrewroom REALLY AND PRACTICALLY mean.

TO ALL JETSTAR PILOTS – These people (AIPA) are putting a gun to our heads and won’t hesitate to fire the first shot if things go south for their QF mainline pilots.

Vote YES for EBA4

Vote NO for AIPA.


....Standing by for incoming.:D

Jetscaber, the percentages are similar, the amounts are different.

Led Zeppelin, I think there's a monster hiding under your bed.

Looking through all the BS, is it really that hard to work out?

1. Management bring the EBA negotiations forward 9 mths.
2. Management rush through a second vote allowing AWAers to vote.
3. Hands tied for 5 years in the most pilot friendly conditions seen.

Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but never in my life has it been to MY benefit when someone has pressured me to act. Never.

Forget the paranoid and inaccurate cr@p that Led et al keep spruking. Wake up and smell the coffee- if you vote this thing up you are forever sentencing yourselves to 3rd World pay and conditions. Forever. Right at a time when you don't just have all the Aces in your hands, you have the entire pack!

It really is that simple.

M

Mmmmbop has a good point.

After all is said and done, the very fact that J* management is pushing the AFAP, the JPA... ANYONE BUT AIPA, must make any thinking person have some doubts.

The fact that Qantas expended millions of dollars fighting a simple change to AIPA's rules must also make a thinking person pause.

If AIPA is going to be a bad thing for Jetstar pilots, why is management on all sides fighting to ensure they are not involved?

Are there any thinking Jetstar pilots out there with an answer to that?

Or do you truly believe that management has your best interests at heart?

Or more to the point - do you think AIPA has the JQ pilots' best interests at heart.

The only thing AIPA has at heart is the interests of the QF mainline group. That's good news for QF pilots.

Led Zep, your music is great but you're beginning to sound like a broken record. :):D:D

Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics - no hidden agenda fullstop

Jetscabster,

Maths mate, you're supposed to be good at it.... 9.5% of $220-240k is considerably more than 9.5% of 150-170K have you got that?????

So it would appear that you have a long way to go before you can compare your EBA offer with the one the Shorthaul guys fought for and got.


Led,

How many times does it have to be said that the Jetstar guys will control their own destiny, the unity is about stopping the undercutting and divide and conquer which has been so successful, and for some reason you seem to condone.

If you think that AIPA has the power to steal your precious planes, then wouldn't they just do it, why would they go to the huge expense in money and effort to get you on board just to shaft you later?

Maybe they really want Unity.

There are some trouble makers in Mainline who reckon we should take a pay freeze across all fleets to get ALL future planes regardless of colour scheme (including the new A320's). The guy I spoke to reckons a pay freeze in mainline would deliver over $200M in savings over the next 5 years, can you beat that by flying 15 787's at $50k less? You can't even match it with 65 787's.

AIPA has not gone this way because enough undercutting has already happened, and they certainly don't intend to take it to a new level. That is what unity provides, a simple plan, yet powerful.

So why don't you answer the question already put:

You have brought paranoia to new levels, and the shame is that your paranoia against the QF pilots has blinded you to the people who are really out to shaft you, the management.

Going Boeing has outed the total AIPA agenda.

"Just accept that the huge majority of pilots in Mainline (ie AIPA) simply want to unify salaries, Ts & Cs, etc so that the current management cannot continue their divide and conquer tactics"

That "simply" means the end of Jetstar and the rat on the tail of each 787, AIPA's true war aim.....because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar. That would cost hundreds of pilot jobs and thousands of others. But the AIPA pilots would be OK and get a few of the drastically cutback 787 order book....for as long as they can keep throwing out "lesser" pilots to delay those fast closing wolves with Tiger, Virgin, Air Asia, SIA and EK logos on thier fangs.

This won't affect me at all so perhaps I shouldn't comment.....except that it saddens me and I suppose also because my super fund has a few Qantas shares and they'll be arguably worthless if AIPA gets their hands on Jetstar.

Sherm. Jetstar's future success is totally dependant on what they pay their pilots? That's not even remotely true, and you know it. Are you Joyce?

As for "because we know that all the costs would trickle down and throughout Jetstar", what do the other groups of employees in Jetstar get payed, compared to their Qantas counterparts?