**** IAN WILLIAM WOODS XXN MR BORENSTEIN
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Looks like now Woods can't be credibly tarred and feathered; Duggan is to be set up by the Stooges as the bogey man who will do the Jetstar pilots in.

Recall that Duggan bucketed Woods badly a few years back. That Woods now works with him to further the interests of AIPA's mainline members only confirms that Woods is a man for all seasons and someone all Australian pilots can rely upon to bind them together.

As Confucius says; He who looks in the rear view mirror only goes backwards.

More gingerbread anyone? http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gif

Hmmm....it may also be that this transcript is a reminder that nothing has changed in AIPA's approach and they are indeed determined to rush lemming like to the cliffs behind Woods and Duggan et al as they short-sightedly try to destroy Jetstar, the one part of the Qantas group that has the capacity to adapt quickly to the ever-changing competitive world.

With AIPA administered training freezes, single Mainline adminstered recruitment and posting, AIPA cost levels and inflexibility and Mainline overheads....Jetstar will be dead and buried and like Panam, Eastern and many others before, so will Qantas mainline head to the knackers yard.

A rearview mirror is useful to see the carnage behind and remind us all that there are lessons of history. If AIPA had the strength to do anything, it would not need to use Jetstar pilots as cannon fodder. AIPA adds nothing at all to Jetstar pilots except perhaps the use of the office photocopier to process the termination notices once it has killed off the airline.

Not me, but I have read the posts you refer to. I don't see "the sky is falling" rather an unbiased view of a distinct possibility that the "future is all rosy" picture that some "naive" people want to believe, is not guaranteed.

Genex, we all turned off to your endless dribble about 10 posts ago.

max autobrakes, The pres didn't mention that little gem. I am not sure the other advocates of the GOAL are aware of it either.

How is that different to paying for an endorsement or a bond? Both of which I believe the AIPA oppose.

What if a pilot couldn't afford or justify the cost of paying out a freeze?

Would the pilot then be disadvantaged?

I don't think the GOAL is achievable, or in the best interest in the short or medium term, of Jetstar pilots. I can't see any benefit to Jetstar pilots that would justify them taking a path at their own risk only, to achieve the GOAL.

AIPA doesn't oppose bonds. All S/Os joining QF are subject to them and all crew changing types are subject to freezes. Freezes and a return of service obligation are both fine by me and I suspect by the majority of AIPA members.

If I jump and get caught on the wrong type/rank etc then I do that knowing that those are the possibilities. I jumped early for 767 F/O and spent four years rotating. I jumped late for 744 F/O because I thought a 767 command may be around the corner and missed out on two years of earning a ****e load of extra money. I'm not sure what your point is Turbtool.

Short to medium term? Probably nil. Long term? Huge. imagine being able to decide that you may like to bid across to the A380 or other type when seniority allows.

Talk about propaganda. Do you deliberately try and mis-lead or does it come naturally? What risk are J* being asked to take GOAL? They are being asked to consider it as being an option for the future. I see no reason why QF and J* (and QFLink) pilots shouldn't be able to bid at will between fleets/types/ranks IAW a GOAL. Entirely up to the individual to make that choice. Yet you see no benefit in this. You also consider it a 'risk' to seek? Exactly what risk is that? What are J* pilots being asked to 'risk' in order to achieve GOAL? As far as I'm aware the only thing that QF and AIPA pilots have asked of J* pilots is to consider becoming members of AIPA and working together.

I think i can see the supposed 'risk' in this whole GOAL issue for one particular group of J* pilots. There would be many DECs who would be banking on the continued expansion of J* to avoid them having to take up F/O slots in a few years. Perhaps they feel that if the GOAL did get up that because they're on AWAs they'd then drop behind all the QF drivers in getting a promotional slot. Therefore if the EBA gets up they're on the EBA and 'safe ' from the rampaging hordes of QF drivers. If the EBA doesn't get up then they're still on their EBA. If AIPA et al then get the GOAL then perhaps these guys (like Led and his ilk) feel that they'll have to kiss goodbye to retaining their left hand seat.

I suppose that explains the hidden agenda. :rolleyes:

Keg - This from my previous:

Without any emotion, can you or someone from AIPA COM please explain whether this example is an indication of what could happen if GOAL was implemented ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this one Led? It's a relative simple thing. QF have been working with a Y system of seniority for allocation on the 'long haul' and 'short haul' types since 1992(ish). The GOAL just adds a couple of extra branches to the Y.

In the example you use, a current QFlink pilot would take 3-4 years (at current rates) to get a mainline F/O slot. That slot would be allocated on the basis of date of joining if there were two QFLink (or even J* crew) bidding for the same slot. IE if there was no one on the mainline list bidding for the slot then it would go to the next pilot on the GOAL on the basis of seniority. If a J* F/O slot came up in the interim then he or she may be able to bid for that first if they so desired. They may also be able to bid for the S/O slot if they so desired.

So you may say that the GOAL doesn't do much for the current QFLink 15 year captain because he's still five years away from a mainline F/O slot. It actually doesn't do much for most of us currently in the respective airlines in the short- medium term either because it'd be another 3-4 years before any of us would be able to get a slot. There would possibly be some advantage for current S/Os as they may be able to bid for a J* F/O slot in the short term. Of course they may be trumped by the QFLink 15 year Dash captain as this would probably be allocated on joining date.

So yet again you can see that I'm advocating a position that isn't of material benefit to me but would be of significant benefit to others within the group.

I should also point out that the 'supposed risk' that I articulated in the previous post doesn't actually exist in my mind. Irrespective of AWA or EBA, I would expect that the start date that someone started with the airline would remain. Thus, the current DEC who fears of being behind 2500 QF drivers in the seniority pile shouldn't bothing thinking about it. They'll be a J* captain even under the GOAL system.

Zeppelin, the Dash 8 Captain would have higher bidding rights on a Jetstar position than the mainline S/O. However people who would always have the highest rights on a Jetstar position would be current Jetstar pilots.

Your seniority in your own branch of the Group in preserved. You always have higher rights than anyone else to your own flying and promotions. Your rights group wide, however are based date of joining.

The GOAL lists primary function for it's early years of operation is to protect what you have now. No QF pilot willl get a Jetstar Command before a current Jetstar pilot. No QF pilot will ever be senior to a current Jetstar pilot on the Jetstar list.

No Jetstar pilot will get a slot in mainline before a current mainline pilot. No Jetstar pilot will ever be senior to a current mainline pilot on the mainline list.

Same goes for Qantaslink.

After the date that the GOAL list is finalised, any new joiners can go anywhere their seniority allows, after their freeze/bond period is finished. It is then that you will have Jetstar pilots senior to QF pilots on the list and vice versa, but they will all be junior to current pilots.

The example is TN pilots who now all have seniority in mainline for 767 Commands and they are senior to any QF pilots who joined after them on the combined list. They got their 737 commands ahead of any QF pilots. If they hang around long enough they will get 787/-400/A380 commands. There are some now on the A330 because that is a new type and covered under the Integration Agreement.


Does that explain it for you?

Kremin

So if Qantas allocated say 50 787's to Jetstar, and there were now enough pilots in Jetstar to provide all the left hand seat slots as at todays date (even if they were only A320 F/Os right now), do you mean that no Qantas pilot now or future could get to fly a Jetstar 787 in command until the current jetstar pilots retire?

Sherm, no. Not retire.

Let's say that QF agrees to GOAL with effect from 1 March 08. No current QF driver would get a look in at a J* command until all J* F/Os employed prior to 1 Mar 08 have had one of the three things occur:
a. Take the slot,
b. Be deemed not suitable for the slot by J* management, or
c. Knock the slot back.

After that it goes to the GOAL which would be datal seniority. Therefore a 15 year Dash driver trumps me (13 years QF). Next year the bloke or blokette who knocked the slot back or was found unsuitable would still have first bid on the aircraft ahead of others on the GOAL from outside J*.

There is no bogeyman in the GOAL concept. Same would apply if they decided to give the 787s to QFlink. All the current QFlink F/Os get to upgrade on it and then allocation after that is down to datal seniority from across the group. The 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver trumps me for the gig. The 16 year QF driver trumps the 15 year Oxley/Impulse/J* driver, etc, etc.

The J* F/O who joins on 1 Apr 08- after the GOAL list is established- slots in behind all of the other players in the group. Therefore they'd be looking at upgrading to F/O on the 744 or perhaps another mainline type before they'd get a shot at command on J*. Again I think this is where the nay-sayers about AIPA and GOAL are coming into it. Any potential DEC doesn't want this to occur and so they're hammering hard at AIPA and QF mainline guys to prop up their own interests. Of course, you can argue that AIPA and QF mainline guys are also out to prop up their own interests but personally I'd prefer to look after those 3000+ QF group pilots who are currently IN the group before we worry too much about those who are yet to join. Note too that this is not about a 'b scale'- which I abhor- but it is all about choice! Ironic that J* markets itself as being all about choice whilst working overtime to prevent their crew from having it!

I hope that is making things clearer.

Led as Keg and Kremin have said, its simple:

Wrong! He has access in a few years.

The Dash 8 Capt is behind all current QF pilots for sure, but if he wants a QF 737 F/O slot now he would have to resign, come across and then wait 3-4 years as S/O before getting to the 737 (as he would still be behind all current QF pilots). So the GOAL is a MUCH better proposition for someone in his position than the status quo.

Also, what about the flip side? (you conveniently left this bit out)

A 2 year F/O with Eastern has access to a Dash Command ahead of the 15 year F/O from QF - so no disadvantage for the Qlink guys there.

Got it now?

The 2 Year F/O with Jetstar has access to a JQ320, 330 or 787 command ahead of a 15 year F/O or 20 year Captain from QF as well. So the J* guys are not disadvantaged either.

See?

As for the argument about freezes, will someone get stuck somewhere? Yes, sometimes they will but only for 5 years or so.

But people are stuck to a much greater degree right now....

Are there regional guys that would like to fly a 737, A320, 744? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

Are there QF S/Os & F/O's that would like to go up a rank and fly a Dash 8 or A320? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

Are there Jetstar guys who would like to get a payrise and a better lifestyle in mainline? Yes, but not unless they resign and go to the bottom of the list - I would call that stuck.

These people are stuck, but they are stuck forever. With a GOAL waiting just 5 short years will give them a WORLD of choice.

So, led your questions have always been answered, care to answer a few that you have ignored for the last week from various posters?

Time to answer......

Great examples speeedy. The questions are valid too!

Sherm. All current Jetstar FO's would get a command slot, or at least the opportunity for a command slot before anyone else. Then the command slots (or FO slots) go to whoever has the datal seniority in the Qantas Group.

The current Jetstar pilots are always senior to any Qantas group pilots on the Jetstar list. It is exactly the way it worked with TN.

Speedy,

perfect.

I'm working towards my CPL and hopefully one day will get a job with an Australian airline. I get very disheartened when the likes of Led Zeppelin and Genex talk down the industry. From what I can see is that the Qantas pilots are trying to help the Jetstar ones but the Jetstar ones don't seem to want to improve their current position. When I see the petty crap that comes out on this forum, I feel that I really am wasting my money and should pursue another career because of what Jetstar and some of there pilots aspire to.

ASG.
I agree,
You should get out of the industry.

See what I mean.

ASG

Led and Genex aren't the only Jetstar pilots posting on this forum.

Many Qantas pilots do want to help Jetstar pilots, even if only because it will help them too. That is healthy.

Many Jetstar pilots want to be helped, even if it will also help Qantas pilots. That is also healthy.

If you really want to be a pilot in an Australian airline, there's a good chance that one day you'll join the Qantas group. If the Group Opportunity Allocations List becomes a reality, you won't get to choose which bit of the company you'll work for. You'll be assigned - maybe even to Jetstar.

My advice; Don't play favourites, listen before speaking and if you do have to speak, ensure what you say isn't petty crap either.

further to flyingins,

I would say that Led and Genex are not Jetstar pilots at all.

Genex is management with J* or he is with Oldmeadow consulting.

Led is OS and is eyeing off a DEC with J* but has to wait until his super is maximised before he leaves EK. Or maybe is a DEC with J* now, either way unrepresentative of the J* pilot.

The mates I have in Jetstar think along the same lines as flyingins, as long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?

The GOAL would be prefect for someone like ASG, he may not get a choice where he starts, but after a few years he will have choices that we never dreamed of.

Oh dear Speedy......

Let me remind you these forums are about argument and debate, not about personalities. If you want to PM me I will let you know exactly who I work for. and its not who you think.

And as for the GOAL stuff.....someone does get screwed along the way.....only its not you and me and not right now....its all the jobs that might have been. And thats the sad bit.....some of you, in the midst of your hatred for Jetstar and those with opposing views.....or even contributing views....can't see that some people have different ideas. Me....being older, yet having had the best of the industry at home and mostly overseas.....I think that growth and commands at reasonable salaries is worth offering to most folks. Dull, staid but reliable slow growth on old aircraft is OK for others. I just don't see why B744 drivers could possibly morally justify the demise of an entire airline and hundreds of current and future jobs just to protect the near future for themselves.

But as dear Kremin (is that Latin for criminal?) says....maybe that's all drivel (he said dribble about my posts but I think he's faking an inability at English and meant drivel. Aren't all Sky Gods well educated?).

Genex,

The thing is that senior pilots who fly the B744 are probably the least affected by any of this. By the time it has any effect on them they’d either be long gone or senior enough that they’d be above the mess you’re helping to create by inciting division. That you think these guys spend their days trying to plot the downfall of Jet* is laughable. That you think they would be in any position to actually achieve this is beyond belief. Despite the line you keep pushing Qantas isn’t full of staid old ‘Sky Gods’ sitting there lording over all from a B744. Most blokes there are like any other group of pilots who want to continue their chosen profession, live a reasonable lifestyle and get fair remuneration for it. The stereotype you keep trying to perpetuate is just not correct.

For someone who claims to have enjoyed the best years of aviation you seem to be spending a lot of effort dismantling the very terms and conditions that enabled this and appear to be going out of your way to deny that future to others. It really doesn’t add up?

Nuf.

Ps: Gotta run. I'm late for golf as I lost track of time in my wine cellar deciding what boat I'm going to buy that will look better than my kids North Shore schoolfriends parent's...................NOT! :yuk:

Care to explain how a GOAL is going to suddenly cause the demise of Jetstar and the associated jobs?

AIPA is on record saying that they accept that an LCC has to have different T & C's, so it won't be pushing for the LH award.

What a GOAL gives is everyone access to good T&C's eventually. In other words... CHOICE... Start in Qlink, Jetstar or an S/O in Qf and from there choose fast promotion with less pay (LCC or QLink) and later gain the T&C's in mainline (if you want).

A GOAL is good for everybody, you and I have no idea what the aviation world will look like in 15 years time, if Jetstar continues to grow at rates like this and QF is stagnant, then it is good for our younger pilots in QF, because eventually they'll get a look in (won't make much difference to me).

What if the LCC model starts to falter, or at least contracts a bit, and mainline expands? Again the Jetstar guys get to share in the spoils.

Why do I have to PM you to find out who you work for? I know already, it is obvious you are management, not because you oppose my view (so does Led, fistfokker and heaps of others) its because the tone of your posts show you encourage the divisions that exist now, and want them to stay.

Only management would be happy with this division, no line pilot, no matter whether pro or anti-AIPA, pro or anti-GOAL would encourage such division. :=

AIPA simply were not interested in the regionals until the creation fo J* and since then they have been your new best friends.Management did not make that division Speeedy your mates on the CoM did and now they seem to be suffering from amnesia.You see Speeedy the regionals have nothing that you want or need,this unity line from AIPA is a facade to get control of all Qantas group pilots to shore up their own flagging fortunes.Remember it was Westwood who broke the unity back in early 80's and that is the way it has been since because that is the way AIPA wants it.The goal is another distraction that has been put out there to project an image altruism,fact is AIPA has no idea of how they are going to convince GD to accept it and until that approval it is nothing more than an if,but or maybe.
P.S.With the previous quote,Woods does not contest the sentiment of what Duggan said only the words he used.

Thanks Keg and others for the clarity of explanation re GOAL as you guys see it.

Thanks for the personal concern as to my employment status - rest assured I am in Jetstar.

I will also tell you that a number of the JQ pilot group ARE suspicious of AIPA motives and believe that AIPA still regards JQ pilots as second class citizens. It seems pretty clear to a lot of us that the AIPA actions as described in the AIRC did occur (emails, attempt to delay ETOPS approval, etc) and that these actions were done in the interests of the AIAP mainline pilots only and stuff the JQ pilots. You are seen as bullies waving a big stick over the aviation community.

Gaining someone's trust is relatively easy. Break that trust and it takes 10 times as long to regain it. This is the way a lot of us feel and why some see the AFAP as a better (but not necessarily preferred longer term) option in the current climate.

For the above reasons, this EBA 4 may be appealing to a big percentage. I guess we'll know the result of that later today.

Regarding the future, my personal view is we should start our own JQ association, but there are so many different views on this that makes it difficult to know if it's realistically achievable.

It would be in AIPA COM's interest to take a much more conciliatory and "softly softly" approach if you wish to seriously get back the trust of JQ pilots. You need MUCH clearer and complete explanations as to ALL of the implications involved. As much as the GOAL explanation was detailed earlier in this forum, this now has to come from AIPA at an official COM level.

AIPA also needs to explain what it intends to do if GOAL doesn't get up. This is perhaps the more interesting and significant industrial question if Jetstar LH expansion occurs over existing mainline routes. Just how "friendly" will AIPA be to us in that situation ??

So there must be someone who heard Woods' express views on EBA4/JPC several times recently...allegedly:ok:

Why the reticence to post them here?

For those who struggle with the psycology behind all this AIPA/J*/Qlink carryon I can only point you in the direction of many studies carried out on human nature going back to the 60s...at least one of which is on youtube from memory...I'll see if I can hunt it out and post a link.

Basically it revolves around any situation where you get an 'A' team and a 'B' team. The first experiments used uni students in the US and was set up to simulate a prison over an extended time frame. Weeks or months I cannot remember.

The experiment had to be stopped in the end because of the behaviour of those students who were put on the 'A' team (prison guards).

Think Abu Graib.

The same professor who carried out that experiment in the 60s is still studying the phenomenon and did a less extreme version in the UK.

Take 10 people and put them all together in a house and give them various tasks to carry out.

After several days pick 5 at random and designate them the 'A' team and the remainders designate the 'B' team, assign tasks then sit back and watch.

The change that comes over perfectly reasonable people is astounding...and quite frightening.

This is exactly what we have here with QF mainline designated the 'A' team and everyone else in the QF group is the 'B' team.

The exact same thing is tearing CX apart where you literally have 'A' scalers, 'B' scalers, 'C' scalers and freighter guys on probably an F scale.

I see subtle evidence of something similar happening where I work.

Human nature being what it is I would suggest it is an almost insurmountable.

Do management know this?

Almost certainly. That would be why, in my view, J* management want J* pilots united under a common EBA and they DO NOT want AIPA involved in any way shape or form...AFAP doesn't carry the same baggage.

Then the real question, Led, is just how friendly will the JPC be to AIPA in that situation?

Time will tell I guess.

ruprecht.

Here is part 1 of the Stanford Prison experiment in the 60s. Remember that these are merely volunteer students who have been divided into A team (guards) and B team (prisoners) and then the results were recorded without intervention...until it got too serious and it had to be halted.

This is an extreme example but it is instructive non the less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0Nx31yicY

Edited to fix link.

CC,

I would counter that you have shown clearly the exact reason why management WANT Qantas Group pilots’ represented by different associations. It works totally to managements favour to have us in different teams hating each other. That’s what AIPA and a GOAL is trying to undo. I agree with Led’s sentiments here (I’m surprised......especially as he STILL won’t answer my polite and quite reasonable question) that it does take 10 times as long to regain broken trust. Again this works in managements' favour to the extent that it can use this prejudice to steer people in the direction they want, and away from something that is actually going to be beneficial to them.

Nuf.

You make a valid point....I think GD is capable of that, I don't accept JG is.

The main point remains. Mainline will always be the 'A' team and human nature near guarantees they will behave that way. Of course nothing like the extreme example shown above but if you look at the complaints virtually everyone not in mainline has against AIPA/a % mainline pilots (the skygod label does have some basis in fact even if overstated) you see this facet of human nature on display.

If you're QF mainline you're by default on the 'A' team...everyone else wasn't good enough to pass selection. This theme is a revolving door on Pprune.

It is simply human nature.

The end GAOL might rightly be viewed as attractive by the 'A' team, because deep down inside they believe they will benefit most - they are after all the 'A' team, but I am going to suggest human nature, let alone management resistance, indicates it could also be viewed as naive.

Led, what did AIPA say to your questions at last Friday's briefing?

CC,

I am in mainline but I definitely don’t think that way in terms of the selection process. That process has nothing to do with the quality of pilot or person you are. It should also be stated that it’s not the average mainline pilot that has anything to do with the conduct or content of the process but rather the same sort of Professor that runs your aforementioned experiment.

I really don’t think the current AIPA heads are conforming to this ‘Team A’ mentality you speak of. (The previous regime?....more like it but I actually don’t think they thought there was ANYONE outside of ‘Team A’!) You need to be careful that if the situation has changed that you don’t continue to think as a downtrodden member of ‘Team B’ to your own detriment.

It’s been said before,

“As long as no one gets screwed then why not have unity and a GOAL?”
No one has yet argued anything that convinces me that anyone will get screwed here. (Except if you’re outside the Qantas Group and trying to get a quick DEC slot above ALL current QF Group employees.)

Nuf

Since no-one in the Qantas Group has any 777 time and the 787 is a common type rating wouldn't it make sense for Jetstar to get at least a handful of DEC 777 drivers to ensure the 787 introduction goes well? They can also no doubt train those mainline pilots lucky enough to get a slot on the 787 in a few years when the 787-9s come to Jetstar and the 787-8s start flying domestic routes.

I imagine there are other skills that such a few such 777 DECswould bring into Jetstar that would be an asset to the group as a whole. Things like ultra-long-range operations, extreme winter operations, routine cat 3b, 207 minutes ETOPS, polar operations etc.

Anyway, I presume from the deafening silence that everyone is happy with the EBA vote result and now you can all get on with flying.

Someone like you, for instance, Sherm

The silence is deafening. Almost 3 hours have passed since the Evote closed. This is strange. What the hell is going on? It cant be that hard to post that it's gone down again!:}

Ha ha......wings folded sadly

787 Presentation
 

The following link is a presentation by Boeing on the 787

http://www.acay.com.au/~willt/tempbo...7flightops.pdf

No drooling guys!

Differences’ training courses on third last page:
Days for conversion to 787 from;
B777 - 5 days
B757/767 - 8 DAYS
B737 - 11 DAYS.

Sherm,
Airlines introduce new aircraft all the time. Most of the skills you mention certainly aren’t specific to the 787 or 777 but are bought across from flying any jet, Boeing or Airbus. The couple of days shorter course that a 777 pilot may have over any other is hardly significant, that is unless you’re a 777 pilot trying to get a DEC over the top of existing Qantas Group pilots.

Nuf.

Rostov you might be in for a surprise:ok:

Chimbu may well be right. A little bird told me that by a good margin the result was excellent.