To the Jet* 58%.

Congratulations on allowing lies and fear to decide your vote. You have now proven yourselves to be the dumbest group of pilots in the world.

Emergen and all AWAers. No really, please explain to me how you have the right to vote on an EBA you are not part of. You were the 134 pawns who have been manipulated to produce a result beneficial only to management. And too dumb to realise it.

Enjoy your next 5 YEARS. AJ et al must be laughing their arses off.

M

could someone please give basic run down of new EBA $$ ect

Led,

One minute you refer to unity as idealistic and naive and the next it’s a cynical exercise. It can’t be both. You accuse me of smoke and mirrors when you can’t give a straight answer to a simple question. When early in this topic you talked about this terrible history you’ve experienced at AIPA’s hands as a Jet* pilot, and it becomes obvious from a simple check of your previous posts that you were in EK as recently as December 2006, I put it to you that it’s you who is being deceptive. But relax, no Qantas pilot is trying to (or would ever be able to if this is set up correctly) get a command in Jet* before you. (For what it’s worth I already have a command.)

The GOAL would simplify fair promotional advancement as Qantas Group pilots and whilst highly desirable is not an essential part of the process to prevent one group being used against each other. That comes from the structure of the association. Again, Zep, it’s been said to you on many occasions that the Jet* pilots would run as their own entity in the same way as the S/H pilot group and L/H pilot group do. AIPA has stated both verbally and in print that Jet* flying is for Jet* pilots first. They can’t dictate where Qantas places the 787s, or any other new type for that matter. Your group maintains its own power and ultimately could tell mainline pilots to stick it if they tried to go against you.

The company may try and block a GOAL but they can’t stop you from being represented by AIPA and it’s this they have desperately tried to stop. I believe that if we can get the representation sorted out then the companies divide and conquer strategy would be defeated and there would be no downside to a GOAL from their point of view.

Nuf.

mmmbop,
That would have to be the most accurate, and clearly the best post I have ever read on Pprune.
To have personally voted this EBA down twice and being a member of the Fed's of which I have resigned in disgust and joined AIPA I am ashamed of the 58% and the fact that AWA pilots where used to secure the vote by allowing them to short circuit their own AWA to join collective EBA.
SHAME SHAME SHAME 58%
You are weak.:mad:

mmmbop-agree but don't think the other 42%( the first majority ) are dumb at all! So 130 AWA voters say yes ( mainly for job security ) means without them the same outcome as the first NO vote would have resulted in another NO and to a greater margin.

NUF, well said.

Rostov, agree with your sentiments.:ugh::ugh:

time4change-have a look at other posts/threads on JQ T & C's. This will take too long to type here.

LED, what do you want for the pilot group? Being this paranoid is bad for your health-seriously! You appear to be very passionate about the past and show contempt to future unity. What FORWARD direction do you envisage for Jq crew-old and new?

AIPA has screwed up in the past-so have we. Endorsing the previous EBA re A330 flying, look back now and wonder why/how? WE ALL make mistakes and lessons that have to be learnt. So now AIPA has shifted into gear, become more flexible and adjusting to the times. They have alot more questions to answer but at least there is direction.

How tragic the AFAP is involved. How many of the JPC are AFAP members? - Would they be prepared to declare themselves? At least the AIPA guys have enough balls to declare themselves.

and den...........

How unsuprising.

A few short weeks ago Jetstar pilots were getting sore backs from all the congratulatory slapping from their mainline 'brothers'

Now, after a (slightly) improved deal is put up and 58% of the TOTAL PILOT GROUP who CHOSE to vote have approved it, they are back to being Monkeys.

Cmon, admit it, skin deep down you really wanted to say that all along TL, dr et al....... didn't you...

I guess for the few non JQ non QF people here you need to read between the lines, what is really pi$$ing some of the vocal (and abusive) mainline guys off is that the little rag tag bunch of monkeys down the road refuse to swallow AIPA propoganda. Do what you are told and we like you, otherwise we will revert back to name calling.:D

Sorry Keg, I quite liked your post, but with the likes of TL and Drs batting for your team I fear the whole side is brought down.

BTW, I thought the second vote by DJ drivers got up by only 54%.

Hmmmmm.

Does anyone out there in P-Prune land actually know what the legalities are regarding AWA signatories voting on an EBA?
I heard the last time something along these lines occured it ended up in front of a full bench of the IRC. Result ,"not allowable".

Any "no" voters out there want to grieve this?
Would AFAP wish to support any No voters if they wished to pursue this, since they are signatories to the EBA?:rolleyes:

No Idea EitherCan someone give me a yes or no answer,
Did the J* troops approach AIPA when they were first formed, and did AIPA knock them back? Today 12:30


NIE ,I think you will find it was the IPC (Impulse Pilots Council) that approached AIPA back ,just before the birth of JetStar.
I'm led to believe the AIPA President of the time who said" not interested" went on to explain that legally AIPA couldn't cover them .,.He then went on to become Chief Pilot. (I'm also led to believe he was none too diplomatic in the passing of this information)

If I'm not mistaken there have been something like 3 Presidents of AIPA since then ,that's 3 generations of different thinking in AIPA. What do you think the answer would be if the same question was asked today now that AIPA is legally allowed to represent JetStar pilots, or are you one of those people who are happy to not let the facts get in the way of a good story and blame the son for his father's deeds?.

thanks man I have a copy of old contract just wondering what entry level pay is now?cant find any info on new EBA

Max

And your position on the apology to our indigenous cousins, is?

M

and whats the spot price for eggs in China Maui ?
Your point being???????

time4change-f/o 55% (first 12 months)then 60% of captain approx $80k base + retention pay due next year then every 2 years(2009 & 2011). O/time tied to base (3% increase annually). 50% Credit for paxing, extra days off =10/11 days off per month.

Max

Sins of the father, dear boy.

Maui

Max

Interestng that you saw fit to withdraw your comment, at the same time you responded to me.

M

JJW said it all......

"I guess for the few non JQ non QF people here you need to read between the lines, what is really pi$$ing some of the vocal (and abusive) mainline guys off is that the little rag tag bunch of monkeys down the road refuse to swallow AIPA propoganda. Do what you are told and we like you, otherwise we will revert back to name calling"

Looking from the outside I have to say that the collective AIPA spleen venting here since the vote has been both horrific and cathartic....at least finally AIPA members have outed themselves.

And by the way.....I never specially liked AWAs....having refused a "contract" in 1989. Where the heck do AIPA representatives get off saying that it is morally wrong for a pilot on an AWA to vote to join an EBA?

hmmmm not flash how is that better than last contract?

It's not really but I forgot to include the perfomance bonus which will look good this year I dare say...a guess is not worth putting up here on this site.

...Unless it's done the AIPA way it can't be done at all.

I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,

There - I feel much better now. NOT:D

Genex,

It's far from a collective venting of AIPA's spleen. There's 2500+ members of AIPA and less than a handfull have vented.

Led,

That last post was not much better than TL's.

Nuf.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of the members of AIPA don't even know this site exists. Fewer still would read it regularly, and only a handful would post here.

Representative? I think not.

To take a few unnecessary, unhelpful and insulting comments from some of the posters here and extrapolate that to represent the views of the members of AIPA is drawing a long bow indeed.

Hey MPPGF,

Is this the same bloke who has just pulled all his economics theory and other insights into world affairs off the internal website (used to attempt to scare people into thinking the sky was falling and we should vote yes)?

Must be a big set of balls he has. I would want him in front of me in the trenches just so I could shoot him in the face as he turned to run.

What a disgrace!

Thanks to the 58% who sold out their mates as well as the next crop of FOs. Jake you are right. That guy is unbelievable!!!!.

Dm

Douglas (et al).....

Continuing in this theme is eroding whatever goodwill there might have been between AIPA and Jetstar pilots. The previous page has a post with a monkey photo on it which may well go down in history as the defining moment at which an permanent and impassable abyss opened up between the Qantas pilot groups. It is probably way to late to undo the damage now but someone from your side of the fence could try.

As I see it, at any time in the future where the idea of GOAL or a single pilot union or any initiative at all from AIPA comes up....these recent post EBA posts....and THAT photo....will damn any hope of serious discussion and credibility. Someone's spleen just cost the whole pilot group heaps over the long term. And yet people like you somehow blame 58% of the Jetstar pilots.

"But your Honour...I had to beat her. If she hadn't misbehaved I wouldn't so it's her fault. She asked for it"

Sherm,

If your life is determined by posts on this website, it must be a beauty!

Take the blue one, it makes you HAPPY, not HORNY.

:)

Jake

Because I'm a nice guy I will assume that you aren't in fact an infantile pampered fool, in a gene pool full of such examples....and instead believe that you were having a good natured go at me in the frank and friendly manner charactersistic of well educated gentlemen who have travelled widely and seen the world through all sorts of perspectives. Hope I'm right.

I have a great life. No pills....just fun.Prune is but a flyspeck on the wallpaper...but when I see venom and spleen coming from the mouths of those who days ago wanted to be best friends to everyone....I simply had to write something. I could as they say....do no less.

You had a chance to add your objections to THAT photo and you, by your silence instead assented to it. You should be ashamed.

Long bow Sherm.

Why do people always assume silence to be tacit approval? Why not assume that it is just choosing to ignore an ill thought post? I feel no need to comment because I know how stupid it is (there, I've commented, feel better).

The pilots in this country will be the losers in the current situation because they are poorly led. On one side is a megalomaniac who listens only to hired help and the voices in his head and on the other are two hs beens who consistently show that they are prepared to sign anything to attempt to remain relevant and are trying to see in retirement.

It will require generational change for anything to advance. But by then it may be too late.

P.S. Don't assume the intelligence level of the fellow traveller is anything but average. You will be dissappointed. (Think Sentinel, Budplan, etc. etc.):ok:

Sherm, as far as I am aware, Dougas Mcdonell is a Jetstar pilot. I think you will also find that the monkey photo, poor taste that it is, is actually based around the theme of peanuts.

One photo posted by one member of AIPA (and how do we even know that for sure?) does not mean AIPA's agenda is now revealed.

It is Idiocy at its finest to label an organisation of 2500 people (made up IMHO of at least 2400 thoroughly decent and professional individuals) because 1 frustrated naughty boy posts 1 photo of a monkey. Thin skin perhaps.

For the record, I think Led is a goose, but I don't look at my mates (or for that matter those I don't know) from Jetstar any differently since reading his crap. Can I ask the same in return for the Mainline pilots?

The fact is that the Jetstar guys DID stand up for themselves in this second vote.

Remove the AWA voters (because, who in their right mind would not vote to get off the AWA?) and the result was a bigger NO vote than before. A hollow victory perhaps, but one that speaks volumes to me.

WELL DONE JETSTAR PILOTS :D :D :D

I think you have spoken loud and clear, but it is still a shame that Genex and his buddys will think this is a overwhelming approval of this EBA, rather then seeing it as a minority liking the EBA, and another minority wanting to get job security. In this case 2 minorities make a majority.

The management (and Oldmeadow) would not allow the AWA pilots to vote the first time because they had every intention of welshing on their very thin promise to get them off AWA's or at least hire more DEC on individual contracts.

Now, to get the vote through they have made this very cynical move, I can't believe that Led and his mates can't see it for what it is, but such is life.

I am comfortable that the majority of J* pilots know exactly what happened here.

I am very comfortable that the majority of AIPA pilots, and more importantly the AIPA President and Committee know exactly what happened here.

Now the real question. Can anyone state categorically that it is legal for those not covered by an EBA to vote for a replacement of it?

Because, whilst I accept that the AWA pilots were voting for EBA 4 which they would be part of, they were also (and this is important) voting to replace EBA 3, which they WERE NOT covered by. := :=

Me thinks there might be a problem here! Anyone care to grieve this?

Disgrace
 

What a disgrace,

How could a group of professionals act in such a stupid fashion?
We let Oldmeadow spin and lies cloud what should have been an easy decision.Unity of group pilots that the company clearly wanted to stop.

That the few "usual suspects" continue to in fight saddens me.We look extremely foolish to the outsider.

Australian pilots have more of a chip on their shoulders than any pilot body in the world.
All the old 89 bull****, AIPA,AFAP did this, JPC did that,.Tit for tat.Tosh.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of the past and keep stock of what the real issues are.We let ourselves get played off between each other.

A fantastic win for the Qantas consultants.Sadly I expected it.
Pilots are indeed stupid.The precedent has been set......:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Speeedy....have no idea on the legality of the AWA people voting, tho of course would support their moral right to get onto an EBA should they choose. I am sure if they had all voted NO AIPA would have accepted their moral right to vote!

But as for the NO vote.....mate of mine who works inside JQ said (and I think he'd know) that there were 91 added people eligible to vote and the YES vote went up by 94, the NO vote declined by 11. Balance is 8 additional abstainers. Overall 43 abstained. Even if they'd all (the abstainers) voted NO, the EBA would still have passed, 53% to 47%.

Anyway...I'm sure the figures will go public soon and someone can check this.

Jake,


The point of my previous post was that if you are a Jetstar pilot with access to the webgroup than you should really publish your concerns and thoughts on that forum and not here in a spineless fashion.Try standing behind what you say if you feel so strongly about it.

Sorry about the double post.

Some observations from someone not involved in the airline industry in Australia:

The dogs of free market competition have finally been released upon the airline industry in Australia. The issues being debated here are exactly the same as the issues being debated in the US, Canada and Europe. It is not a debate about QF and Jetstar. The industry in Australia is a microcosm of the industry worldwide.

Qantas pilots would have nothing to fear if they were providing their employer with true value for money. Do you think pilots at SWA are constantly jumping at shadows?

The forces at play for the labor base employed by an incumbent carrier are vastly different from the forces at play for those employed by a startup carrier. Note that I did NOT refer to LCC.

Quite simply, the conditions of service enjoyed by the staff at an established carrier such as QF are the result of half a century of industrial fat gathering around the edges, something that does not hobble a startup. Only the ignorant would expect the conditions of service at a startup carrier to be aligned with those of a legacy carrier.

Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism for lowering labor costs and changing customer expectations that cannot be achieved in the mainline carrier due to rigid but often outdated beliefs and work practices.

The reality is that Jetstar provides a buffer to QF that permits the overblown cost structures to continue while carriers such as Thai, Emirates and Virgin Blue nip at their heals. This practice is very common among legacy carriers.

Sherm,

AIPA posted some figures which said:

The Yes votes increased by 114.
The No vote increased by 8.
Total AWA pilots = 134.

91% voted (same % as last vote).

We'll see which numbers are right.

As for the legalities. I don't think it is sour grapes, it was obvious before the vote that the AWA voters were an "interesting" addition.

If the Majority of people covered by EBA3 do not wish it to be replaced by the new one, why is their opinion not of primary importance? That is the fundamental point.

Essentially this vote has allowed future pilots 'yet to be covered' to vote, why not get 1000 GA guys to vote as they may be covered by that EBA one day.

I just think it has a certain smell to it, and requires an answer.

For those who are happy with this voting irregularity, I have one question: "Why weren't the AWA pilots voting the first time?"

Reading between the lines, what is evidently true, given the recent vote, is that Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism to undercut ML guys and sell themselves rediculously and selfishly short of the work practices ie, pay and conditions that mainline, and the entire airline industry have managed to acheive. Thus setting an all time low benchmark on pay and conditions!!!. All this whilst looking down the barrell of a pilot shortage and for 5 years!!!!!

Good on ya to those guys that voted NO, regardless the representation you choose. I feel for you having to sit (for what will now be rediculous TOD's at Sh*thouse pay rates) next to the clowns that voted YES. Enjoy the long sectors, days away and peanuts.

2 reasons, there probably isnt 1000 guys left in GA, and secondly, they wouldnt want to take the pay cut :)

Maybe all the mainline guys who have the ability to go to J* via the MOU should have been given a vote as well?