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-   -   Merged: Jetstar EBA 4 (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/311095-merged-jetstar-eba-4-a.html)

Flava Saver 31st Jan 2008 01:29

Merged: Jetstar EBA 4
Voted down. 56% NO 44% YES

AIR WARREN 31st Jan 2008 01:44

The Tribe has Spoken Mr Joyce + Co.:{

G Cantstandya 31st Jan 2008 01:45

Thank fark for that!!!!!!!

Let's hope now we can get AIPA/AFAP to secure us a better deal.

Rostov 31st Jan 2008 01:57

Well, the troops have finally spoken. Let's see how AIPA and the AFAP will step up to the plate. I am a little excited but not holding my breath. This I feel is the olive branch AIPA are looking for. Well?? Lets have a look at your cards AIPA. Jetstar will be pi$$ed big time and if the pilot body are back doored by AIPA now, I think you could probably close the gate on Qantas group pilots having a united front for a very very long time..

SilverSleuth 31st Jan 2008 02:27

Do you really think Jetstar will be devastated at this result???? I don't think so. While obviously disappointed, a nearly split decision tells the old jetstar bean counters that what they offered is nearly on the mark. Lets be honest they were only 6% off if the result here is true. I actually find it very sad to see so many people voted yes. Here we are in the biggest pilot pro work scenario for years and for some reason 44% still thought what was offered was good enough. This result has not helped the pilot group very much in terms of new negotiations. At virgin the first EBA was voted down 87% and the company came back with very little, few grey promises (i.e long haul) and a lot of scare (if this it voted down again).... That was enough to turn almost 40% of the pilot group. I think the Jetstar beans will be licking their chops thinking jesus we really don't have to offer much more do we. Shame there was not a more united result. Good luck with round 2.

No Idea Either 31st Jan 2008 02:31

I wouldn't hold my breath people. Only 7% needs to be turned for it to get up. We went from 87% NO to scraping through by 3% in the blink of an eye, the veiled threat of no command upgrades being the turning point. With your expansion the company will no doubt try a similar tactic. Be strong people, it will be your last opportunity, we blew ours!!!!!!

squawk6969 31st Jan 2008 02:48

From what I had explained to me it seemed to be quite a fair offer, more $$$ for no more work, plus a bit more $$ for some productive things. PLus some more days off.

Maybe I missed something:confused:


Flava Saver 31st Jan 2008 02:58

Silver Sleuth

As I posted on a previous thread, I voted NO. Reading you post saying that you find it sad seeing so many voted yes, i'll put some perspective on it.

I would of liked a resounding NO figure, but a NO is a NO. The dudes sitting in the back seat of an A330 earning sweet f/a would of seen a massive increase compared to what they are earning 'if' this EBA had of been voted up. And i guess quite a few possibly voted for that, and i don't blame anyone for doing that. Some A330 skippers would of seen a fairly decent increase as well, hence a yes vote as well.

Am I glad this got voted down? You betcha. But as Rostov has said, here is your mandate AIPA/AFAP. Here is the extra time you have now wanted. IW and LC NEED to get their heads together, and educate the pilot body, and get the runs on the board that they so desperately want with the JQ group. I swear, if the next round of EBA talks come around (be it this year or whenever) and we haven't progressed significantly, you will lose any confidence in the union movement from a majority of crew.

"You have Control" :ok:

PS.. Squawk6969, yep the deal wasn't too bad. Certainly heading in the right direction, BUT, they sold out the F/O's to an extent using command opportunity as the carrot, and hey presto, they have just taken on a heap of DEC and they are openly & actively recruiting for more DEC's, so guys WONT be upgraded as quick as what they think. The big allocation of upgrades that were announced 5 months ago, the majority haven't even started the training, and would of not been eligible for the bonus payment later on, as they would not be checked to line as skippers by April 1, which left a bad taste to those it affected, along with having the 75% Command Training pay negotiated away as well as a double whammy.

Launch_code_Harry 31st Jan 2008 03:17

Flava, can you post the yes/no vs total eligible voters?

Chimbu chuckles 31st Jan 2008 04:25

Well a democratic result but I think all you No voters experiencing a warm and fuzzy are about to be dealt a rude shock.

GD/AJ will also be experiencing a warm and fuzzy because with your present EBA not due to expire until Sept this year they can now delay it as long as they like after that...having opened negotiations early and been rejected by the pilot body. You guys and girls who voted No are taking a big punt on the state of the economy/pilot shortage in 18 months...I wish you luck.

They are now free to offer individual contracts to whomever they need to crew whatever expansion actually happens before the 'US Cold' gives Asia/Australia the flu and gives J* a reprieve from the 'pilot shortage'. Much better for the bottom line to give 100 pilots a payrise than 600-800.

You don't think there won't/can't be individual contracts do you? They existed before Work Choices and they will exist after work choices. The J* T&Cs are so far above any means testing/protections a Labor, or any Govt, might impose that they just won't care in the least about J* offering individual contracts to prospective employees on T&Cs equal to or greater than the EBA just voted down.

The VB pilots faced an entirely different economic/industry outlook 12+ months ago.

I feel you have let emotions stop you taking a wider view and voting strategically as a result of that wider view. What % of J* pilots are too young to remember a recession?

About 56% apparently.

Chances of AIPA/AFAP getting together for a group hug?


Chances of either group achieving a better result if the world is in recession in 18 months time?


Chances of the world being in recession in 18 months time?

I would have said better than 50%.

I think this vote will be seen eventually, when AIPA/AFAP fail to deliver on their rhetoric, as the death of any chance for pilot unity in Australia.

fender 31st Jan 2008 04:54

I'm with ya chumba.
been trying to pass on the message to the young ones but I guess you gotta experience the highs and lows of life yourself.
Good luck all, I think you might need it.

permFO 31st Jan 2008 05:18

The Company stated that if this gets voted down then there would be no more negotiations until the current EBA expires. If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation. I for one want to see what the legislation proposes and yes the AIPA and AFAP information did influence my decision to vote no.

Chimbu chuckles 31st Jan 2008 05:28

If they turn around and offer a "better" deal then it is probable that they are concerned about the new Governments proposed changes to the IR legislation.
They won't.

Any legislative efforts designed to roll back Work Choices will not effect in any way pilots, or any employee for that matter, on the T&Cs the current J* EBA provides. They will be aimed at that segment of society that were on minimum wages that truly were victims of work choices....Labor's heartland.

Jabawocky 31st Jan 2008 06:37

Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"

I do think that those of you who voted it down may have not only shot yourselves in the foot but taken your co-workers and shot their feet also.

What does the company do and those who voted for it do now. Can a Yes voter go to AJ and say....I voted for it, can I sign up, and if down the track we can be more productive and valuable can we look forward to an upward progression?

Many folk do believe that a major part of the Ansett collapse was unsustainable conditions for not much productivity.

Maybe I am way off the mark........


genex 31st Jan 2008 06:48

AIPA persuaded a few swinging voters to effectively ensure a pay cut for all Jetstar pilots for at least a year. This hands extra profit to Jetstar, ensures that some form of inducement outside the EBA will be offered to Direct Entry pilots and/or individual contracts/AWAs will be offered at the rate all pilots would have got if AIPA hadn't interfered. So in what way is the pilot body at Jetstar better off? And one more SARS outbreak or 9/11 or fuel price spike and the next EBA offer will not be as good. However I never did see the document so am just guessing.

I just wouldn't want to be in a position where a bunch of people I don't work with and never will determined my working conditions. And lusted after all the command slots.

Oh well, good luck boys. Hope you really were prepared for what you voted for.

Flava Saver 31st Jan 2008 07:13

Jetstar pilots are ridiculed by many on here for voting yes for accepting previous EBA's, the majority have spoken, and now the outsiders are quick to jump on us again for voting the other way. Jeese this industry makes you laugh. :ugh:

Capt Wally 31st Jan 2008 07:19

Okay guys good luck with the next battle. Even tho it wasn't an outstanding success like some have said in here, a No is a NO.There is obviously quite a large divided camp amongst the troops but you have to start somewhere.
Little by little they (the head turkey's) have been wittling away T&C's, & so little by little you guys/gals are clawing yr way back, & it hurts them (the turkey's again) to think that it's not all that safe up there afterall!

How many times do we hear, oh yr a pilot, I see, then yr rich I suppose !!!

If only the general flying public really knew !


Capt Kremin 31st Jan 2008 07:47

Genex, that post was a masterly piece of disinformation... you even worked in the bit about the command slots; even when post after post has been made stating that under a GOAL, no QF pilot will get a command slot before a current Jetstar pilot.

Still, if you say it often enough maybe someone will swallow it.

Jetstar guys, well done. :D

Night Hawk 31st Jan 2008 07:58

How true Capt Wally. :)

BTW some CFO's voted no becuase the big picture for FO's was not great. Hopefuly short term pain for long term gain....etc

Shafting the new guys is not the way to go either.

DEC are coming in to the fold and they are looking for more. Hence the quick left seats aren't as many as once thought.

Flava Saver.... your spot on also.....:ugh:

Hopefully this will push the JPC into action either with or without union help.


drshmoo 31st Jan 2008 08:10

Top stuff Jetstar pilots for voting it down. Don't listen to the nay sayers. Looking forward to AIPA/AFAP stepping up to assist and get good deals across the board. Good luck with the fight

ACMS 31st Jan 2008 08:17

yes, well done boys and girls.:ok:

KRUSTY 34 31st Jan 2008 08:30


"Just remember folks....you might think your job sucks and it does not pay that well.............."But it beats boning Chickens for a living"

And just what qualifications does it take to bone a chook Jabba?

Well done guys. In the current environment all professional pilots are worth more. For too many years people have undersold themselves. That is why there is a shortage today. Airline managements know this, and they are hoping to Chr!st that not too many wake up to it. Errr...., too late I think!

And the "threat" of DEC's. They'll have to pay a lot more than what they are offering for that one to work.

Catch 22.

Chimbu chuckles 31st Jan 2008 09:00

Capt Kremin perhaps genex was referring to DECs from outside the QF group?

AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success. That being the case, and taking him at his word, I would respectfully suggest that any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing...as would any prospective employee being currently interviewed...and the result will be the further fragmentation of the pilot group. A Yes vote would have meant all pilots currently on AWAs being offered an EBA and thus the unification of the current J* pilot group.

Flava Sava given the nature of this BB just who and how many ridiculed J* pilots for voting the previous EBA up?

The answer is a small % of young, angry QF pilots who saw their careers being effected without thinking about the protection of mainline T&Cs which J*'s existence provides via it's exclusion of VB/Tiger/Lion/whomever from that % of the domestic market that J* holds. And an even smaller % of vocal, angry GA pilots who perceive that their career path is adversely effected by J*'s mere existence on lower T&Cs than mainline without even considering the extra opportunities that J*'s existence provides and as a competitive entity against VB etc which has tended to raise domestic T&Cs in the last years, QF Domestic T*Cs (which are an '89 aberration) not withstanding.

The J*PG has taken T&Cs from 90K as a 717 captain in the Impulse days to, if this EBA had got up, 210-220K for an A320 Captain as well as numerous work rules that protect pilots from less than enlightened management...and all without AFAPs help (despite their pleading the contrary on another thread).

If the No voters think AIPA/AFAP will be called in tomorrow and negotiations reinstated with a newly cowed QF/J* management you're sadly mistaken...and naive in the extreme.

I would not be at all surprised to see AIPA go quiet now....how long has the QF domestic EBA wrangling been going on since their EBA ran out...2 years?

What about the efforts at Eastern (or is it Sunnies)...18 months since their EBA expired?

You expect more effort for an entity that is perceived to directly attack mainline T&Cs?

Your dreaming.

The no voters seem to think this will light a fire under AIPA/AFAP but when they fail to meet the expectations, and I think it will be 'when' not 'if', of the No voters you watch the anguished cries on this website...not to mention the anger of the Yes voters who have been denied.

The fallout from this vote, in my view, will be far reaching in ways many No voters least expected.

This expectation of all pilots under one union is naive too...the respective office holders at AIPA and AFAP are not going to release the reins that easily and risk their respective companies T*Cs to those who may have little or no vested interest.

QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.

Chances of a general strike of QF group pilots?


If they were serious about pilot unity they would have been offering the J*PG encouragement and 'no strings attached' help from day one, 6 mths ago, instead of riding in at the 11th hour and advocating a No vote to what was a reasonable package in economically uncertain times. They would have been supporting the J*PG as fellow professionals trying to negotiate the best deal possible for their members while acknowledging the unique circumstances of J* rather than behaving as they have been.

fistfokker 31st Jan 2008 09:15

Well, democracy has had its say and only time will tell. I think with about 90% actually casting a vote that it is a very good vote rate.

The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires. The current agreement requires discussions to commence 3 months prior to expiry so I would guess about July would be the earliest to test the water.

I do think that we missed a big opportunity to get rid of AWAs or Individual Agreements without having to rely on the Labour Government (I can't help remembering who presided over the offerring of Individual Agreements to pilots in the first place) however here's waiting to see what they deliver.

I hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.

eye_in_the_sky 31st Jan 2008 10:27

I voted yes.

I wanted some protection against direct entry guys coming in on better conditions, from a possible economic downturn and to better my pay as a 2nd class citizen...oh, sorry, I mean Cruise FO.

I don't trust the unions. The AFAP only published letters, etc because AIPA got into a position to represent us.
Both groups never made a DEMAND to be included in the negotiation process.

If they had, and had been rejected, this would have been conveyed to members and action taken.

Instead, we see a grab for ca$h from both, each trying to appear more eager than the next to represent us.

How many members would AFAP have without their Loss of Licence insurance? Not many I suggest... this seems to be the main driver of it's members. I am aware AIPA doesn't have a similar scheme.


Jabawocky 31st Jan 2008 10:34


Its got nothing to do with skills and training......boning chickens or whatever. Its commercial reality.

Let me ask you a couple of questions and answer honestly to yourself.

Brain Surgeon V YOU as a pilot.
Which is far more important to society?
Which gets paid more?

My answers.....
the pilot is far more critical to the bulk of society than a Brain Surgeon
The brain surgeon
Leverage at the point of sale!!

Personally I think most pilots (not all, some are on such a good deal already) deserve a little more, but its commercial reality that matters or there are lots of unemployed pilots and just a handful of slightly higher paid ones.


Poto 31st Jan 2008 10:43

AJ made it very clear recently that if the EBA got up he would not hire DECs/DEFOs on individual contracts with T&Cs equal to or better than the failed EBA. He made it equally clear that a NO vote would release him from that promise and he would do whatever it took to make J* a success.
Chimbu was that protection written into the EBA or just a "promise". Similar to JB/GD telling QF crew that unless LH EBA7 was voted up, No scope to J* LH operations would be offered to qualified QF crew. Great decision to "trust" him!:ugh:

If its not in writing and can be upheld in court it is not worth a piece of Sh!t buddy:=

The members voted down an inadequate EBA- AJ will negotiate and a new deal will be cut.:ok: Similar to the QF SH EBA;)

QF will never allow a true group opportunity list...and short of strike action by all QF group pilots there is no way to force them to do so....they will just say no.
What is a TRUE opportunity list:confused:

Mr. Hat 31st Jan 2008 10:55

what planet have the 44% been living on?

Douglas Mcdonnell 31st Jan 2008 11:48

And now the internal coup begins. Children.


ratpoison 31st Jan 2008 11:58

I very much doubt they will get the DEC's that they believe. Word is certainly getting around of what a sh*t outfit they are. New EBA offered one more day a month off. WOW! At the moment the A330 guys are getting nine days off a month and spending the rest of the time overseas. For me to send my family back to Oz and spend nine days a month with them...... Fark that.

Rostov 31st Jan 2008 13:21

DM has hit the nail on the head.
Most don't realise what is happening, BUT if the internal coup gets inertia WE ARE ALL F*CKED.
AIPA or the AFAP must act prior to the 12th of Feb. I can not understand the short sight and absolute disregard for fellow man that is transpiring in the current coup. Thank f&*k we are not at war and these boys are 'SUPPOSED' to be watching your back. Never before has solidarity been so important. All you Qf boys with an axe to grind drop your axe and think with your head. Go to AIPA and push hard. With the current coup pushing the 44% YES vote to sign up as AWA contracts on the voted down EBA4 condition's and leaving the 56% NO vote a minority compared to the current AWA number of pilots..this has the smell of another '89 and leaving the NO voters a masssive minority in a Jetstar of AWA pilots. NEVER BEFORE HAS AIPA OR AFAP GUIDANCE BEEN MORE IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For now is the eve of the winter of our discontent (forgive the theatrics) If the ball is dropped now a long winter it will be. Already the 44% of no voters is gathering speed and very shortly will be offered AWA's on the voted down provisions. Time is short and there is so much to lose. FOR EVERYONE. For Gods sake put all the sh!t behind. All you QF guys that sympathise, call Capt Woods, All you Qf guys that dislike Jetstar pilots for what has been done in the past. FORGET IT for it will be a pleasant past memory compared to what to what the rouge percentage are trying to achieve by coverting from EBA pilots to AWA pilots on conditions that where voted down and it is a possible 44% of what was the collective bargaining strength of the Jetstar pilots.

QFinsider 31st Jan 2008 14:56

Management in airlines hold a pair of twos..they always have.They have bluffed Robin Holt, to a certain degree IW and certainly the JPC (who have their nice shiny comands-read pieces of silver) As a result, the collective approach has been to fold at the first sign of resistence. Management, be it EX, J* or QF cannot do our job...There is no revenue withour aviation being committed.

It is not about a wages break out...
It struck me recently as we landed in EGLL with bugger all gas (something I protested at flight planning) why bother to shave the margins when GD and these other idiots commit fraud and cost us more than that in a single swoop...

Wages are so minor guys..Less than 3% or operating cost. Believe AJ and the same sky will fall in, te very same one GD had falling in for the last five years....

It is their lack off accountability, the unviability of the model they espouse that costs money, however for the shareholder it is unfortunate that the parties that make the huge errors also "create" the financial information presented to the market.......

Sit on your hands AJ is holding a pair of twos.....

(and by the way if AIPA dont do the same with our LH EBA it will confirm to me our union executive are stooges!

VH-JJW 31st Jan 2008 15:51

Time to Get Together
I voted YES.

I still believe that the deal on offer was sufficient.


I believe in democracy and the majority has spoken. The actions of a few to offer themselves up to work to the EBA4 conditions under an AWA are, in my opinion deplorable. They certainly do not represent the majority of yes voters.

I would urge both these individuals and the company to take a step back and a deep breath. The world has not ended. You have not lost money as you never had it in the first place.

It is time to pull together AIPA, AFAP under the one umbrella, with a new JPA representing all interests.

The only way to secure a better deal from here is if we all stick together.

genex 31st Jan 2008 18:20

QF Insider......you are spending too much time here and not enough thinking about airmanship. You bothered to protest about your fuel load at briefing but then went ahead and landed at EGLL with "bugger all" gas. That is the standard AIP strategy about nearly everything....scream then fold.

If AIPA took vigorous action.....actual action.....instead of relying on the JPC to d their work for them, then maybe you'd have some credibility

CaptCloudbuster 31st Jan 2008 21:28

Fisty said

hope the AIPA and the AFAP can work together for the good of all pilots in Australia before too long.
Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week:ok:


The J* CEO has stated that the Company accepts the verdict and will commence discussions for a new agreement "in good faith" when the current agreement expires
So Chimbu, I guess you'll have to

take him on his word
on that one too;)

any pilot walking in and offering to sign an individual contract on the failed EBA T&Cs will receive a positive hearing

Any union is only as strong as its resolve. If any :mad: chooses to go down this route (and I'm sure some will/have) then the squandering of the current positive situation rests squarely on their heads:=

strobe12 31st Jan 2008 21:53

Rostov and all the others who are worried about AIPA/AFAP not doing anything about this, i put this question to you.

Have you folks picked the phone up and called AIPA/AFAP with your concerns? If so, thats a step in the right direction.

For those who have not, why not? You can complain all you want on theses forums and what not, but until you pick the phone up pr write and email NOTHING will change!

Bleat "united we stand" etc etc, but nothing will happen unless you pick up the phone!!!

Take some action yourselves instead of waiting for others to take the first step.

Once again to those who have:ok::ok:

WhoFlungDung 31st Jan 2008 22:21

So Who you gonna call.....
Just pick up the phone and give AIPA a call. Not hard. Just do it!

02 8307 7777

Go on. DO IT!

Rostov 31st Jan 2008 22:25

Already did that boys. I have done my part thus far.

aulglarse 31st Jan 2008 22:41

For the posters here who claim AJ stated 'this and that' is exactly that=nothing! he can say all he wants until he changes his mind.:eek:

Do I have to remind people about the last EBA getting up? Oh, where is that north american contract company now??? How embarrasing to those so gallable!:=

This is about sacrifice for the long term, not a 3% bonus!

Solidarity people-moving forward and upwards:D:ok:

fistfokker 31st Jan 2008 23:48

Good news - heard from a reliable source a well respected Senior AIPA COM rep is heading up a meeting with Jet* people early next week
Cloudy, J* management have agreed to meet the AIPA but that is all that will happen. Don't expect that negotiations will be open again. The AIPA will get exactly the same treatment as the AFAP already did. "Thanks for your interest but the deal is off the table until we are requred to commence discussions for a new agreement." Given the CEO's statement to that effect I will take him at his word.

Discussions between J* and the JPA can be expected to commence around mid year. The AIPA or the AFAP will only be present at those discussions if the pilots employed by J* want them to be. I personally hope that will be the case.

In the meantime all new employees are being offerred AWAs until we see what may change in the IR situation.

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